758 réponses à ce sujet

[CHT87]

Best explanation out there?

[mastercheif-117]

Tsantilas wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Yes.. because the Catalyst was lying.. Shepard was not destroying all syntethic life, but only the reapers.
Next.

Nope.  Do you ever see a living geth after the ending?  This is what pisses me off about the whole indoctrination theory.  You people are using things that aren't shown in the game as so called "proof".  Unless I see Geth walking around you cannot assume **** about the catalyst lying.

The converse is true. We didn't actually see the Geth malfunctioning or being wiped out. Neither did we see EDI breaking down. It's entirely possible for us to ASSUME. We simply cannot conclude about whats right and wrong. 

[nevar00]

Tsantilas wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Yes.. because the Catalyst was lying.. Shepard was not destroying all syntethic life, but only the reapers.
Next.

Nope.  Do you ever see a living geth after the ending?  This is what pisses me off about the whole indoctrination theory.  You people are using things that aren't shown in the game as so called "proof".  Unless I see Geth walking around you cannot assume **** about the catalyst lying.

The Catalyst says you will die if you choose the Destroy option.  You can live.

It was lying.

[Abram730]

Tsantilas wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

Atempting to prove one side or the other the only thing we can bring forward is the ending itself and the Final Hours app. Outside of circumstantial evidence there is no proof that the ending is anything aside from what is shown.

From what I've seen of the Final Hours app...

"The ending is a mess because the following was cut out (as late as Nov '11):
- Reapers indoctrinating and assuming control of Shepard during this speech/battle

This was removed because even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices). "

Which is more biased to proving indoctrination, than disproving it.

Simply because they cut a small segment out of it, doesn't disprove it

"we removed the indoctrination sequence because blablabla..." IT MUST BE INDOCTRINATION! What?

"so I was going to paint my room yellow but then I decided not to" SO YOUR ROOM IS YELLOW!

You removed the stereo from your car thus you have no car?

The reality is that those who deny IT are trolls.. not because they "have a different opinion"
They are trolls because they do things like lie, twist and deceive.. Their arguments have nothing to do with facts, opinions, hypothesis, or debate.. It's about griefing people.. I've argued with the type enough to know they are just barking dogs and it's just because they like to bark.. dogs will be dog.. dogs will not simply begin to talk if you bark back enough.. They only respond to shows on dominance and you can't do that over the Internet.

An upbringging of limited quality.

[Xerkysz]

CHT87 wrote...



Best explanation out there?

This guy did a very good job.
I was going to explain it as I played, but this is quite good.

[Tsantilas]

nevar00 wrote...

The Catalyst says you will die if you choose the Destroy option.  You can live.

It was lying.

I already covered this earlier in the thread.  The catalyst never says Shepard will die, only that he is partly synthetic, which simply means his implants will stop working, and whether he lives or dies depends on his war assets (somehow... lol... space magic?).

[mastercheif-117]

Tsantilas wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Yes.. because the Catalyst was lying.. Shepard was not destroying all syntethic life, but only the reapers.
Next.

Nope.  Do you ever see a living geth after the ending?  This is what pisses me off about the whole indoctrination theory.  You people are using things that aren't shown in the game as so called "proof".  Unless I see Geth walking around you cannot assume **** about the catalyst lying.

And look, the Indoctrination is not out there to ****** off people. It's a certain compelling, rationalised interpretation of the ending that we were given. It isn't a case of "Oh stop whining. Think for a second." People choose to believe what they choose to believe and some would rather not accept that the ending to ME3 was entirely illogical. And even assessing the Catalyst on a logical basis, I would much rather assume that it's ****ting me. I mean, have you read the threads about its circular and supremely flawed sense of logic?

[Xerkysz]

Tsantilas wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

The Catalyst says you will die if you choose the Destroy option.  You can live.

It was lying.

I already covered this earlier in the thread.  The catalyst never says Shepard will die, only that he is partly synthetic, which simply means his implants will stop working, and whether he lives or dies depends on his war assets (somehow... lol... space magic?).

He says "You can wipe out all organic life if you want, including the geth (first part deterring you from choosing it.), even you are partly synthetic... (Implies that selecting destroy will also kill you, second part that Harbinger tries to deterre you from choosing Destroy.)

[Jaze55]

LOL More of this?

I love the title. I like how you quoted Theory and the word PROOF certainly doesn't make me think you are trying to convince me your cult is correct.

OK I am predicting it now. When the Indoc Theory doesn't come to pass the Indoc Crowd is going to commit mass suicide saying the entire earth is indoctrinated and mass suicide was the only way to free them.

[Malanek]

OP, you ARE indoctrinated to SOME EXTENT. The Illusive man gets you to shoot Anderson via indoctrination, you wouldn't have done that on your own accord. That explains all the ghostly visions etc and most of your evidence in your post. Doesn't mean Harbinger or another reaper takes over once TIM is dead or was in charge all along. The god child scene may or may not have happened.

[nevar00]

Tsantilas wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

The Catalyst says you will die if you choose the Destroy option.  You can live.

It was lying.

I already covered this earlier in the thread.  The catalyst never says Shepard will die, only that he is partly synthetic, which simply means his implants will stop working, and whether he lives or dies depends on his war assets (somehow... lol... space magic?).

The Catalysts says (paraphrasing here): "Most technology and all synthetics will be destroyed.  Even you are part synthetic."

He doesn't outright say that you will die but he doesn't need to because it's strongly hinted at.  I agree the war assets savin him make no sense though, that entire EMS bar was a complete waste.  I should've been able to see and fight alongside the troops I gathered in combat.  <_<

I don't know if it's been covered or not but how would you explain the black lines on the edges of the screen and the whispers in the background when Shepard is talking to TIM and Anderson?  He even grabs his head at one or two points.

Modifié par nevar00, 19 mars 2012 - 02:59 .

[im commander shep]

Tsantilas wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

I'm sorry if you truly belive SPACE MAGIC is the answer, then we all might as well forget mass effect and start watching Harry Potter.

Space magic is just a satyrical way of explaining how anything works in a science fiction setting without actually having some sort of scientific explanation for it.  Half the Mass Effect franchise is based on space magic.  What powers the crucible?  Space magic.  Mass effect fields?  Space magic.  Thanix cannon?  Space magic.  Kain heavy weapon?  Space magic.  The Crucible especially is the biggest space magic weapon in the franchise.  It was designed without knowing what it does, or how it works, only that it will "stop the reapers" if you connect it to the catalyst.  The Normandy crashed on a lush Garden Planet with blown up engines, and Joker (glassboy) walks out of it without so much as a scratch.  Space magic is just a plot device.

So when you say space magic you mean element zero almost everything you just mentioned is based on logic, well logic in a universe that element zero exists in. Have you ever read some of the codex.

Ughh... you're missing the point.  This is a fictional universe.  Element zero doesn't exist.  If I provided you with element zero right now would you be able to build a mass relay?  Use Biotics?  I don't think so... no one knows exactly how it all works.  They just accept that "this technical stuff involves element zero which makes mass effect fields and something something, yeah".  The Codex entries are made up fiction trying to give the player a feeling of immersion.  Ultimately though it just comes down to Space magic, and Element Zero is just a name they gave to some of the stuff powered by space magic so that it makes some kind of sense.

Ok you are totally missing the point. They do actually explain exactly how element zero works how it powers mass effect fields and all of the other devices it does not matter if it exists in real life in the story it works based on logic and well lots of physics concepts. If you just change the logic behind all of these concepts within a story and in the case of the end ingnore lots of it then there is no point in what has been said before or after. The universe that has been created has all the limitations and problems just like ours the real one which is why it is so great to then disregard lots these limitations in the name of artistic lisense or space magic, makes the rest of the universe moot as what has been said before or after really no longer matters.

Bioware by creating this ending is effectively destroying the logic they put into the universe in the name of artistic lisence if this is really the case well. That spells the end of the mass effect universe

[Tsantilas]

Abram730 wrote...
You removed the stereo from your car thus you have no car?

The reality is that those who deny IT are trolls.. not because they "have a different opinion"
They are trolls because they do things like lie, twist and deceive.. Their arguments have nothing to do with facts, opinions, hypothesis, or debate.. It's about griefing people.. I've argued with the type enough to know they are just barking dogs and it's just because they like to bark.. dogs will be dog.. dogs will not simply begin to talk if you bark back enough.. They only respond to shows on dominance and you can't do that over the Internet.

An upbringging of limited quality.

I use exagerated examples and "trolling" for the same reason you choose to disregard the "trolls".  I'm tired of the Indoctrination Theory supporters using wild speculation of a religious degree to try and explain away a terribly written ending, which while it doesn't make sense from a plot point of view, still makes sense as far as what it's telling the player.  Shepard goes to crucible, Shepard picks one of 3 flavors of defeating reapers, queue credits, the end, thank you for playing make sure to buy our dlc.  It's pretty straight forward if you get past the inconsistencies, and yet people are so much in denial that they have to make up an elaborate alternate explanation, because they simply don't want to admit that Bioware's vision of the ending is simply different to what almost everyone was expecting and wanted.

If you come home one day and find your room cleaned do you assume your mom cleaned it or ghosts?

[Xerkysz]

I'm reposting 3 things.
This,

And this.
He says "You can wipe out all organic life if you want, including the geth (first part deterring you from choosing it.), even you are partly synthetic... (Implies that selecting destroy will also kill you, second part that Harbinger tries to deterre you from choosing Destroy.)

And this.
http://social.biowar...50/polls/29917/

Modifié par Xerkysz, 19 mars 2012 - 03:05 .

[Jaze55]

nevar00 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

The Catalyst says you will die if you choose the Destroy option.  You can live.

It was lying.

I already covered this earlier in the thread.  The catalyst never says Shepard will die, only that he is partly synthetic, which simply means his implants will stop working, and whether he lives or dies depends on his war assets (somehow... lol... space magic?).

The Catalysts says (paraphrasing here): "Most technology and all synthetics will be destroyed.  Even you are part synthetic."

He doesn't outright say that you will die but he doesn't need to because it's strongly hinted at.  I agree the war assets savin him make no sense though, that entire EMS bar was a complete waste.  I should've been able to see and fight alongside the troops I gathered in combat.  <_<

I don't know if it's been covered or not but how would you explain the black lines on the edges of the screen and the whispers in the background when Shepard is talking to TIM and Anderson?  He even grabs his head at one or two points.

Are you sitting down? If not sit down. take a DEEP breath and stand up real quick.
HOLY ****! You just had an indoctrination attempt on you!!! You stand up to fast you get blurred vision. Have you even been in a fight? Did you ever run a marathon? Did you ever excert yourself to hard? Were you ever in a car accident? Have you ever been shot? Have you ever had tons of people you love die around you? Have you ever been in a war?

Here is the deal with your stupid theory, Saren blows it out of the water. How is it that Saren and everyone else is indoctrinated slowly but Shepard is super human and can block it until, CONVENIENTLY FOR YOUR THEORY, the end? No, it doesn't work that way for Saren, Benezia, Whatever her name from Arrival was .... you get indoctrinated and the effects are sublte BUT THEY STILL CONTROLL YOU AND YOU STILL DO WHAT THEY WANT!

Your theory means Shepard is superman. Superman can fly, thats why he lived the citadel explosion, he flew down. He obviously has super human powers since EVERYONE else in the game gets indoctrinated with subtle messages yet Shepard is able to block it all just untill the end of 3 games. 


SURE!

[Xerkysz]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Your theory means Shepard is superman. Superman can fly, thats why he lived the citadel explosion, he flew down. He obviously has super human powers since EVERYONE else in the game gets indoctrinated with subtle messages yet Shepard is able to block it all just untill the end of 3 games. 


SURE!

Xerkysz wrote...


The idea is that indoctrination theory means you've never left Earth.

[Tsantilas]

nevar00 wrote...

The Catalysts says (paraphrasing here): "Most technology and all synthetics will be destroyed.  Even you are part synthetic."

He doesn't outright say that you will die but he doesn't need to because it's strongly hinted at.  I agree the war assets savin him make no sense though, that entire EMS bar was a complete waste.  I should've been able to see and fight alongside the troops I gathered in combat.  <_<

I don't know if it's been covered or not but how would you explain the black lines on the edges of the screen and the whispers in the background when Shepard is talking to TIM and Anderson?  He even grabs his head at one or two points.

Again, whether or not he implies that shepard will die or not isn't the point.  People choose to assume that the catalyst is lying because it helps explain the indoctrination theory.  When I saw it, and saw Shepard breathing at the end I didn't go "THE ****ER WAS LYING!", I went "Oh so I guess I didn't need the implants to survive after all."  It's a matter of interpretation.

As for the black lines on the screen during the TIM conversation, it is explained throughout the game via the Cerberus subplot, that TIM is experimenting on himself with reaper tech so that he can be able to control the reapers.  What he manages to do is reach a point where he's able to exert limited control on people, which is what happens during the conversation.  He tries to control Anderson and Shepard, but ultimately if you make the right decisions you can shoot him or make him see the error of his ways and commit suicide.  That is the only part in the whole trilogy where Shepard experiences some form of control/indoctrination, and it ends the moment TIM dies.

[Jaze55]

 http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination
Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men.But as Saren Arterius discovered during his research into indoctrination at the facility, there is a balance between control and usefulness. The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become. Saren realized that to keep his mind free of Sovereign's control, he had to make himself an invaluable resource. He believed that Sovereign would allow him a reprieve from indoctrination, because the Reaper needed Saren's mind intact to find the Conduit.
The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time. Matriarch Benezia used her abilities to keep a 'haven' in her mind free of indoctrination, hoping for a chance to use it, but this meant she was effectively trapped in her own mind, watching in horror as she committed atrocities on Saren's orders. When mortally injured on Noveria, a despairing Benezia refused Shepard's offer of help and chose to die, saying "I am not myself, I never will be again."
The only person who fully escaped indoctrination's grip was Shiala, but her case was unique; Sovereign's control was supplanted by the Thorian's when she was exchanged for the Cipher, which ended with the Thorian's demise—a scenario unlikely to be repeated.
Ironically, Sovereign's indoctrination may have led to its undoing. After the attack on Virmire, when Shepard told Saren he had been indoctrinated without realizing it, Saren's resolve began to falter and he started questioning what he was doing. To keep Saren loyal, Sovereign put cybernetic implants in Saren's body and used those implants to influence and control the former Spectre. Saren found his loyalty to Sovereign's cause greatly strengthened, although he wasn't a brainless slave and could still be reasoned with. When Saren died, the Reaper somehow used the implants to reanimate his corpse and fight Shepard. Because Sovereign was focusing a significant portion of energy to control Saren, the Reaper fell off balance by losing shields and became vulnerable with the destruction of its avatar. With its shields down, the Alliance Navy was able to destroy the Reaper.

[Fingertrip]

The idea is that indoctrination theory means you've never left Earth.

Stopped reading here since it's false.

[Jaze55]

Fingertrip wrote...

The idea is that indoctrination theory means you've never left Earth.

Stopped reading here since it's false.

How ****ing stupid of a comment is that? He never left Earth. What a joke.

[Tsantilas]

MassEffected555 wrote...

 http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination
*snip*

I never experienced any of that during the game.  What was your point exactly?

[Jaze55]

If the theory is true Shepard will NEVER be Shepard again, even if he resists.

"The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent"

So yeah I really think your theory is true so I can play a half brain dead Shepard for my last time in the Mass Effect series. SOUNDS GGGGGGRREEAAATTTT!

[Jaze55]

Tsantilas wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

 http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination
*snip*

I never experienced any of that during the game.  What was your point exactly?

If you never experienced any of that my point is SHEPARD WAS NEVER BEING INDOCTRINATED!! GASP

[Shepard needs a Vacation]

IDK if it was posted in this thread but this is the best proof

https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true

[Jaze55]

 No you guys with this theory are elevating Shepard above the game lore and rules which is exactly the same thing as SPACE MAGIC :wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

If EVERYONE else in the game get's indoctrinated one way, except Shepard, you just made him special. WIth SPACE MAGIC

Modifié par MassEffected555, 19 mars 2012 - 03:20 .