1309 réponses à ce sujet

[Killer3000ad]

Shiran wrote...

I've just finished the game this weekend, and I like the endings. Yes, I've played the previous games as well. No, there are no glaring lore conflicts. Ending is fine, it is preposterous to somehow expect some sort of Skittles and Sunshine ending for fairly dark story, where it is pretty apparent from the beginning to anyone including Shepard himself that he won't make it. See his remarks to Kolyat after Thane's death etc.

For the last time, it's not about getting a happy ending, the issue is the endings complete lack of closure, glaring plotholes, the deus ex machina(Starchild) and the complete removal of consequences of past decisions.

I like so many other don't mind a bleak ending, BUT IT HAS TO MAKE SENSE!

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 19 mars 2012 - 05:25 .

[HaesoME3]

kunzite wrote...

I wouldnt call people stupid, just because they liked the endings. People have differing opinions, and their opinion is just as valid as yours, or as mine, or as someone elses. No wonder people think we're whining.

In my opinion you're dumb.

Is this a valid opinion? Not all opinions are equal. Whether we're right or wrong, that's immaterial - I just don't like this everyone's an equal nonsense. We're not all equal, we're also not all special. Some people are stupid, some people are intelligent, some people are average.

Objectively speaking the ending (And I use singular on purpose) is nothing like what they suggested (Read: Not promised so nobody can whine 'but they didn't promise us anything!'), and the plot holes are numerous. I'm all for "Open to interpretation." in some cases. But not "Space magic!"

[LinkSnake1016]

I know some people have vocalized their opinion then got tired of repeatingyou the sameMed onformation so they sold the game back and are through with the series. That's what the PR guys want so in a sense they are winning. Also on twitter for every bad ending "thanks for your opinion" response they thank 3 positive responses asking for more information they like about the game. They are playing a mental game showing we are a minority not the majority. Even their statement referred us as "some more passionate fans". Don't give up hope!

[Ryokun1989]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Ryokun1989 wrote...
It's pointless... it's hardly possible to prove for one; but even so. I'm a writer but I'm *really* not going to call on that as a reason for why you should listen to my reasons for why I think the plot works. It doesn't make me an expert on deciding what is 'good' or not.
In fact, if we go that route, since this is a game we should all be listening to the game reviewers, who have overwhelmingly given Mass Effect 3 excellent scores.

But that's not the complete picture. If so many people complain SOMETHING SOMEWHERE went wrong. It might be the writing, it might be the expectations that were fostered, it might be a miscalculation by BioWare writers.

What does remain a fact though, is that sometimes a tiny change can turn mass rejection into mass appreciation. And most of the time it's NOT what people were complaining about.
I'll give one example: during WoW's development they had a 'tired' mechanic. If you played for too long, your xp gains were halved to 50%. The reaction was terrible! Everyone hated it and wanted it gone.
Then Blizzard renamed the values. The mechanic became known as 'rested'. Instead of becoming tired from playing too much, you become rested from not playing for a while and gain 200% XP. 
The actual gameplay outcome is IDENTICAL, but this time reaction was great! Everyone loved it!

I've seen and heard many more examples of this; including one that I can't quite perfectly recall, but it came down to changing the colour of one part of the set actually changed people's opinions on the costume design.

Oh I fully agree that they could get rid of most of the negative backlash without actually changing any of what is currently there.  They could leave the Catalyst in as is, horribly flawed logic and inconsistent tone/themes intact, and just give us text-box epilogues for most of the major decisions/characters, and most people would probably find the closure to be enough that there wouldn't be any real "movement" left.

But as far as your point about listening to game reviewers, too many people are using the "art" defense for that to be a valid point.  If we just judge ME3 as a game, it's a somewhat flawed experience that is still mostly fun.  It is precisely when it is judged as art, when we judge the quality of the narrative, that the ending becomes truly terrible.  Due not to anything inherently wrong with the concept or themes presented, but simply due to the way they appear to contradict the rest of the series, without the necessary work done to provide them with a context that would make them fit.  A movie with the script of ME3 (assuming any particular choice set as canon) would not get perfect reviews.  It would be lucky to have an average Metacritic score in the 70s.

If people want games to be treated as art, then those games should be held to the same standard as other art, not judged less harshly because it's "just a game."

I both agree and disagree. I think the 'art' defense as you call it is sufficiently backed up to count. That doesn't mean it should be reviewed as a movie. I agree ME3 wouldn't be that great a story as a movie. But it's not a movie, it's a game. And for a game it works really well! That doesn't mean it has to have a big  'you win' screen and final boss battles. I'd really compliment the writers in that they made such a powerful videogame story. It works because it's a game, not in spite of.

[Shiran]

DrGuns wrote...

It's not about the bleak and/or happy ending. It's about the fact that I really don't know whether that ending was bleak or hapyy, because I didn't make a shred of sense.

See also basically every other thread around here.

What? It's understandable that every person will determine if it's bleak or happy, depending on what important to them. As of making sense of it, there are multiple, multiple interpretations that would fill in gaps. Yes, it is left a bit vagues, yes there are questions to be asked, no we don't deserve the answer. You are suppose to use your imagination, everything doesn't need to spelled out to you. The Major facts are though: Normandy crew survives at least partially. Reaping is stopped (paused) one way or another for a while. Cycle is complete for the first time without wiping out all high level civilisations. Mass relays are destroyed but the Galaxy goes on.

[jbauck]

saracen16 wrote...

jbauck wrote...
Some people's suspension of disbelief is more willing than others - which is to say, some people are more inclined to turn off their critical-thinking-wtf? filter and just accept what they're told in order to enjoy a story.

The same can be said for both sides. I've seen people on the "retake" movement not put a single thought of their own into the ending and instead resort to copy-pasting posts from teh intarwebz b/c teh intarwebz is right.

Don't jump to conclusions.

When I got to the end, I saw plot holes, thematic shifts, and Shepard meekly accepting something at face value that just felt "off" and "wrong" to me ... what I was presented with broke my suspension of disbelief.  In order to like the ending, you have to have a stronger willingness to suspend disbelief than I do.

I'm not saying people who didn't like the ending are better critical thinkers, I'm saying people who liked the ending are better at turning that off - which you >have< to do for sci-fi/fantasy genre enjoyment, because even if it's really well-done, the sci-fi/fantasy genres require accepting premises that aren't true, i.e., mass effect fields.

[RockyRoberts]

@Crusina

Do we conclude that all Americans are bigots because of a few?

Just as you asked to not assume, do not assume that you are being attacked...he is merely stating his case. It is only an attack if you are threatened by it...or want to be threatened by it I should say...

There are people on both sides detracting from the truth...read the quotes of our Mass Effect 3 pre-release and tell me that gave us everything they said and more?

Yes things change but READ the quotes... if you cannot see they are directly countering the official ending of the game then I must ask why you continue to evoke negative remarks from others.

[JanakiLotus]

Kraykan82 wrote...

I am a massive, MASSIVE fan of the series, and I loved the ending.

It was thought provoking, unexpected, and has led to some really interesting discussion between my friends and I as to how we interpreted it.

What is really fascinating is how differently everyone perceives it's meaning.

On a side note I do think however, think that it is possible that the whole god child experience was indoctrination. And the 3 options you are presented with are a test.

I also can't help but feel this was planned all along, with the intention of expanding on it with DLC.

Unfortunately - I don't think EA / Bioware had any idea how bad the response would be, and have now put themselves in a really bad position with many of its fans.

If I'm right, and they intend to release DLC to expand the ending - and indeed if it was planned all along - anything other than releasing it for free will look like a cheap get um hooked tactic to milk people for more money.

My feelings exact. My ONLY problem with the ending was being told to purchase more dlc. That was just tacky.

[Myrmedus]

I'm just going to say: I'm getting so bored of people saying they liked the endings using completely off-base arguments such as assuming those of us who disliked them wanted some super-happy-sunshine-bunnies ending. It just makes the whole defence look stupid.

Fine if you liked it but attacking those of us who say we hated it with poor arguments just makes you look ridiculous.

In addition, with a game that was advertised as having "multiple endings" there's no reason why we couldn't ALL be happy with what we got (see: chose).

Modifié par Myrmedus, 19 mars 2012 - 05:30 .

[mghjr6]

Shiran wrote...

I've just finished the game this weekend, and I like the endings. Yes, I've played the previous games as well. No, there are no glaring lore conflicts. Ending is fine, it is preposterous to somehow expect some sort of Skittles and Sunshine ending for fairly dark story, where it is pretty apparent from the beginning to anyone including Shepard himself that he won't make it. See his remarks to Kolyat after Thane's death etc.

I say this as someone who never said one negative thing before finishing the game myself, and who always supported it during development: The lore conflicts are well documented at this point and beyond argument, to be honest with you. That's not a matter of opinion. I'm not trying to come across unreasonable or angry, it's just the way things are. We shouldn't HAVE to make up part of the story in our minds to figure out how the nonsense in the ending came to be.

That being said, it wasn't the lore conflicts that bothered me quite as much. That "10 reasons we hate the Mass Effect 3 endings" video by Angry Joe that I saw last night seemed to explain most of all that really well, including my own problems with the endings.

I wasn't expecting an ending with rainbows, just the chance for an ending with hope. Not my crew somehow being stranded light years away...and looking happy about it. I got everything right, did everything I could. Looked in every nook and cranny, only to get, for all intents and purposes, the same ending I'd have gotten if I'd started Priority: Earth without doing anything extra.

I wasn't even't looking for a major epilogue. Like I've said, I imagined something similar to Shepard, even Shepard and an LI, looking out over the wreckage and knowing that if nothing else, we're still alive. I would even have understood if the Mass Relays had been disabled somehow, but it all left me feeling empty.

[Shiran]

Killer3000ad wrote...

[For the last time, it's not about getting a happy ending, the issue is the endings complete lack of closure, glaring plotholes, the deus ex machina(Starchild) and the complete removal of consequences of past decisions.

I like so many other don't mind a bleak ending, BUT IT HAS TO MAKE SENSE!

Do you mean the Catalyst? It's not Deus Ex, half of your goal in ME3 is to find it / figure it out what it is (the other half being collecting War resources)

[Ryokun1989]

Myrmedus wrote...

I'm just going to say: I'm getting so bored of people saying they liked the endings using completely off-base arguments such as assuming those of us who disliked them wanted some super-happy-sunshine-bunnies ending. It just makes the whole defence look stupid.

Fine if you liked it but attacking those of us who say we hated it with poor arguments just makes you look ridiculous.

In addition, with a game that was advertised as having "multiple endings" there's no reason why we couldn't ALL be happy with what we got (see: chose).

You're in a thread started by someone questioning our intelligence and/or sincerity because we like the ending..

[smegmalongbeach]

Killer3000ad wrote...

Shiran wrote...

I've just finished the game this weekend, and I like the endings. Yes, I've played the previous games as well. No, there are no glaring lore conflicts. Ending is fine, it is preposterous to somehow expect some sort of Skittles and Sunshine ending for fairly dark story, where it is pretty apparent from the beginning to anyone including Shepard himself that he won't make it. See his remarks to Kolyat after Thane's death etc.

For the last time, it's not about getting a happy ending, the issue is the endings complete lack of closure, glaring plotholes, the deus ex machina(Starchild) and the complete removal of consequences of past decisions.

I like so many other don't mind a bleak ending, BUT IT HAS TO MAKE SENSE!

honest question.
 
what were the plot holes in the me3 ending the only one i know of that people are upset about is the relay not destroying the system

[Caz Neerg]

Ryokun1989 wrote...
I both agree and disagree. I think the 'art' defense as you call it is sufficiently backed up to count. That doesn't mean it should be reviewed as a movie. I agree ME3 wouldn't be that great a story as a movie. But it's not a movie, it's a game. And for a game it works really well! That doesn't mean it has to have a big  'you win' screen and final boss battles. I'd really compliment the writers in that they made such a powerful videogame story. It works because it's a game, not in spite of.

My point is that it is perfectly legitimate to look at the various components of a piece and judge them seperately.  That is why at something like the Academy Awards they don't just have best picture, they have awards by category.  My point is that, pretty much solely because of the wide variety of issues with the ending, it is unlikely that anyone would even consider giving ME3 any writing awards.  And that is a real shame, because of how well they were doing until they reached that point.

[YeGodz]

Who said anything about purchasing DLC? Anyone except RetakeME?

Given that the postgame save kicks you back to before the point of no return, I think it unlikely that any after the end DLC was planned.

More likely, they realized that they couldn't actually end the series in a way that pleased everyone, so they made a deliberate decision to leave the details of the ending open to interpretation. Some of us are more okay with that than others.

[Ryokun1989]

Caz Neerg wrote...

My point is that it is perfectly legitimate to look at the various components of a piece and judge them seperately.  That is why at something like the Academy Awards they don't just have best picture, they have awards by category.  My point is that, pretty much solely because of the wide variety of issues with the ending, it is unlikely that anyone would even consider giving ME3 any writing awards.  And that is a real shame, because of how well they were doing until they reached that point.

That's an opinion I don't agree with. I think the story works really well as a video game story. They make use of elements of the classical monomyth (which generally works well in games) and manage to add a layer of symbolism and depth that most games don't, much of it through the actual gameplay of taking choices.
That doesn't mean it'd still be a good story if it was a movie. But it's a great game story.

In fact, if you want to hear my *criticisms* of the story, it'll mostly be about how disjointed it somehow is primarily in Mass Effect 2.

If you want another example, there's an indie game called Braid. It wouldn't make a good movie, but due to the way it's presented in the game it really works.

[msp]

Caz Neerg wrote...
To add to your point, most of the things he lists weren't space operas.  Space opera is a specific type of science fiction, not just another word for it.  A fine example of space opera would be the Vorkosigan series by Bujold.  It is a sub-genre that, while it can contain dark themes and situation, tends to focus on uplifting and epic resolutions, not on tragedy and dystopian nihilism.  The ending of ME3 is more cyberpunk than it is space opera, and it really doesn't fit.

Agreed, and that's a very good point. Space opera is a subset of science fiction. Mass Effect manages to spend 100+ hours establishing itself as a space opera, just to jump to a more metaphysical subgenre at the last possible second. The result is jarring - and makes about as much sense as finding Miles Vorkosigan chatting with a God.

[TheTrueObelus]

The number of people who liked the ending is apparently between 12% and 16% according to polls.

They're the minority.

[zerokku]

 To answer the question - The people who care the most about the universe and story were the first ones to beat it. The ones who are just now beating it are (for the most part) likely not as invested and thus don't see all the glaring plotholes, inconsistencies, etc. I mean the fact that the motive for the reapers essentially boils down to an Xzibit meme should raise some flags, but to each their own.

[Killer3000ad]

smegmalongbeach wrote...

honest question.
 
what were the plot holes in the me3 ending the only one i know of that people are upset about is the relay not destroying the system

Long long long document with all the problems. https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true#

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 19 mars 2012 - 05:42 .

[Lightice_av]

Agreed, and that's a very good point. Space opera is a subset of science fiction. Mass Effect manages to spend 100+ hours establishing itself as a space opera, just to jump to a more metaphysical subgenre at the last possible second. The result is jarring - and makes about as much sense as finding Miles Vorkosigan chatting with a God.

Three words: 2001: Space Odyssey.

[Ryokun1989]

msp wrote...

Agreed, and that's a very good point. Space opera is a subset of science fiction. Mass Effect manages to spend 100+ hours establishing itself as a space opera, just to jump to a more metaphysical subgenre at the last possible second. The result is jarring - and makes about as much sense as finding Miles Vorkosigan chatting with a God.

Then our point of disagreement lies a lot earlier, because I never took it as a full space opera.

[James2024]

Captain Shakespeare wrote...

"Heretics say one is less than two, Geth say two is less than 3.  Both are correct."

welll put.

[Radwar]

Alot of people? Check out how popular the "I hate the ending" threads are, THAT'S alot of people.