1309 réponses à ce sujet

[2484Stryker]

I disliked the endings and have clear reasons why I did, but at the same time, I also don't think that people who loved it are stupid - they're not, and they have their own reasons for liking it.

I can understand what Bioware was trying to do with the ending. I just think they didn't flesh out their idea very well and didn't do a good job bringing those ideas to fruition. But I can definitely see why people would enjoy the ending.

Still, to wrap up a three-game series where there's lots of invested emotions, I think Bioware's original ending idea was a bad one. Fans do deserve closure & finality to their actions, and the current ending failed miserably in that regard.

[Persephone]

Everwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Another entitled, arrogant insult.

...why do the fanboys always have to use the word 'entitled'? Bloody hell. 

And why do you ASSUME I am a fanboy and prove my point by hurling out yet another insult? 

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

I synthesized organics and synthetics + cured the Krogan genophage + saved both Quarians and Geth + got Conrad Verner hooked up and actually making a difference + Khalisah helping out the war effort + wiping out the Rachni AFTER I saved them on Noveria + saving the council while convincing Kaidan not to stand in my way + ... the list goes on.

In life, the journey is just as important as the destination.

Let's play negative nancy, aka "realist"

- You cured the Krogan so they will overpopulate their planet. Also, they're left without their leader, Wrex.

And you're saying that choice won't matter? And how do you know that Wrex didn't retreat through the mass relay with the standing order?

- You united the Quarians and Geth to strand them on the other side of the galaxy from Rannoch.

Wow, you are purposely not reading my posts. If you paid attention to the Quarian-Geth ending, the Quarians have begun settlement on Rannoch, and if you look at the war assets, you'll see that it's not the entire Quarian and Geth populations that have gone to war, but only some of them. If you even paid attention later in the game, for example, you may hear announcements about the Quarians having Geth upload into their suits to allow for better accomodation. But that depends on your choices, so it does matter.

- Conrad Verner is dead. The Reapers killed everyone on the Citadel, or if they didn't, you did when you blew it up.

Conrad Verner went to help with the Crucible Project which (SURPRISE!) is NOT on the ****ing Citadel.

- Ditto Kalisha

Read above: she's become a reporter or an asset. Her ending got closure: she helped with the war effort. Where she is doesn't matter because you're not keeping tabs on every single person in the galaxy.

- So much for the Rachni amounting to anything.

If you save them, they help you, but I personally wiped them out because I mistrusted her.

- The Council is also dead.

That doesn't mean your choice didn't matter about the Destiny Ascension and other things that happened.

READ.

[Almostfaceman]

saracen16 wrote...

savionen wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

savionen wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

And mine, too. I liked the fact that the ending was really involving, and forced you to think about your previous decisions in the game.

lol, how did it make you think about your previous decisions? None of them even mattered.

I'm deeply and gravely sorry, but what you and The Angry One are saying is entirely bull****. And I'll tell you why.

You're telling me the decisions to keep Kaidan or Ashley alive didn't matter? Or that Wrex survived, Mordin survived, Maelon's data was saved, leading to the genophage being cured, Eve still alive, Wrex promoting expansion while Eve, still alive, acts as a political balance to him? Where were you prior to the last 10 minutes of the game? You're telling me that rewriting the geth heretics didn't net me a bonus in geth fleet strength? That saving the Destiny Ascension didn't add to my war assets and subtract from some of them (i.e. Alliance fleets that got sacrificed)? That saving Jenna from Chora's Den, being nice to Conrad, acquiring ALL of Matriarch Dilinaga's writings in Mass Effect 1, and getting Gavin Hossle's data for him on Feros didn't help me catch that Cerberus spy in the docking area without killing Conrad AND netting me a war asset for the Crucible?

That not saving Kirrahe on Virmire and Thane in the Collector Mission lead to the Salarian councillor being executed and made convincing Kaidan or Ashley even more difficult than it was that Udina is a traitor? That having Legion and Tali alive as well as Admiral Zaal'Koris advocating for peace while the rest of the Quarians were told not to go against the Geth led to Commander Shepard having more leverage than, say, Han'Gerrel the warmongerer? That saving the Rachni queen on Noveria led to her being recaptured by the Reapers and thus freeing her netted me a war asset, whereas if I free her if she was killed on Noveria results in a significant decline in my war assets?

I could go on.

Go play the game again and then tell me that my decisions didn't matter.

You can get 4k+ or 5k+ war assets even if your entire crew from ME2 is dead, and you barely do anything in ME3. Infact, you only need 3k for Synthesis. I had 9k war assets at the end of ME3. I would have gotten the same ending if I didn't do nearly half of the game.

Everything that happens in ME3 is irrelevant to the ending and has no bearing on the ending, other than what you personally may choose. And even then, the 3 choices are basically the same since they are vague.

For Chrissakes, have a memory slightly longer than 10 ****ing minutes. The whole game IS the ending: the ending of EVERY SINGLE plot and sub-plot started in ME1, from the genophage to the Quarians to Conrad Verner. There is no humanly manner that ALL these choices can be shown in the last 10 minutes of the game except through the war assets: warriors for the war and scientists for the Crucible.

All 3 endings the mass relays are destroyed. All 3 endings Shepard "dies". All 3 endings the Reapers are "gone" but are still capable of coming back.

No. Here's my ending.

I synthesized organics and synthetics + cured the Krogan genophage + saved both Quarians and Geth + got Conrad Verner hooked up and actually making a difference + Khalisah helping out the war effort + wiping out the Rachni AFTER I saved them on Noveria + saving the council while convincing Kaidan not to stand in my way + ... the list goes on.

In life, the journey is just as important as the destination.

All the choices we made are rendered moot by the ending. Krogan and Turian friends? Too bad, their entire fleets are stranded in the Sol system, beat up and not designed for extended FTL travel to get home. Quarians and the Geth friends now? Too bad, what's left of them is stuck in the Sol system as well. Quarians have no place to re-supply. The Geth are possibly dead if you picked one of three choices that obliterated them. If alive, they are the only race that's got a chance sorta to get home. But even they are not designed or outfitted for extended FTL travel and their fleets are beat up all to heck by the Reapers. Turians are in the same muck as the Quarians. They have no way to re-supply and their ships are beat up all to heck and they can't eat human food, even if Earth was in its prime. The Hanar, the Elcor, the Drell, everyone who you brought to the fight are stranded with no way to get home in a beat up fleet. So, yay, I brought all these races together, to starve to death in the Sol system. 

Wait, let's get together on Earth and figure out how to get home! Well, that's not really a good idea, there's a ton of eezo floating about in the atmosphere and giant parts of the Citadel are possibly landing on Earth, and, well Earth is on fire and could very well suffer an Ice Age because of all the smoke in the atmosphere. No crops even for the humans. We could possibly retreat to a colony - but wait those have been hit by the Reapers as well. 

There are actual valid reasons that people are mad about the ending. The last 10 minutes invalidates everything Shepard has done. It's just that simple. Most people are playing the game to save the Krogan. The Turians. Liara. Tali. Shepard. They're not playing it for some grandpa and his kid thousands of years into the future.

And we don't even know how the grandpa got there. Is that the same planet that Joker landed on? Oh, that's right. Joker, who wouldn't leave Shepard behind and who wouldn't leave the battle until the entire fleet retreats or is destroyed, is for uncharacteristic reasons suddenly in a relay stream running away from the battle deserting Shepard, who he doesn't know is alive or dead, since he hasn't bothered to check. 

*sigh*

[dfstone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

dfstone wrote...

Of the 3 choices you are presented with (Merge, Control & Destroy) Merge and Control were used to indoctrinate Saren and The Illusive Man so I think its kinda obvious you're not supposed to pick those.

Where they? I respectfully disagree on that.

Yes they were.  In ME1 Saren wanted to merge organics with the reapers.  He thought that would save everyone.  Thats how he got indoctrinated.

In ME2 the Illusive Man wanted the Reaper Technology and from there wanted to figure out how to Control them so he could save humanity.  Thats how he got indoctrinated.

That leaves you with 1 non-indoctrinated choice:  destroy them.

[The Angry One]

Anastassia wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Evidence please.

The planet Earth. Also, there are between 200 and 400 billion stars in our galaxy, each with planets that carry a chance of having intelligent life. The panspermia theory is making some very interesting strides of late, but even without that, it's a numbers game. The likelihood of Earth being the only habitable planet, and humans being the only intelligent species, is incredibly arrogant and illogical.

Sigh. Those are abstracts. We have no proof. We do not know. Even if the likelihood is high.
Also we aren't working from a galactic apocalypse here. My point is, the Stargazer does not know, he is speculating, condescending to a child. It proves nothing.

[Persephone]

The Angry One wrote...

Saracen, I must at least thank you for giving me understanding on how you liked the ending.
You have deliberately misinterpreted it, and rewritten it in your head.

Wow. Just....can you GET more CONDESCENDING?

[Koobarex]

Answering the question posed in the topic... The people who actually liked the endings are pretty much divided into three categories.

1) There are people who really liked the endings. They are surely not "stupid", not "misinformed" and I actually resent anyone having a grudge against them for having a different opinion - what's likely is that they just care less about the lore and its consistency, or provide BioWare with a wider freedom of changing everything the games were about in the last 15 minutes (storytelling merits aside). Which is good for them actually, less hours of sleep lost over these horrible endings. We all live by different values, some of us hate toast bread, I love it, some of us are vegetarians, I just can't wait for my juicy steak, we are conservatists, liberals, centrists or simply not giving a quack about politics - remember, our diversity will save us from the Reapers, variety of opinions = good.

2) Then we have the "alternative croud". Lots of people are shouting about the endings being horrible? Well then, I'd better like 'em and like 'em hard, I'd better make sweet, sweet love to them with the use of this here purple-colored space magic! I have a cousin who is exactly like that, so I've witnessed this mechanism first hand and it is pretty fascinating up close, actually. Need to do more research. More subjects required. Need not share data. Someone else could get it wrong.

3) And here's the final group... This will sound paranoid, but believe me - it doesn't have to be, remember that monstrous amounts of money can be lost here. There are companies in the world offering fast reaction to any PR crises via what's called in Polish "the whispering marketing" (direct translation - I have no idea how it's called in English). Create accounts or use dormant marketing accounts used only during a crisis, flood the internets with "counteropinions" and "opposite reactions", creating a sense that's "hey, it's not all bad, there are people who really love to hear that their wig company dumped a ton of orange paint into all the rivers around Chicago". During my work in advergaming a company I worked with was responsible for doing a similar PR stunt for a Polish political party and a... windows manufacturer (windows as in "stuff made of glass, wood and plastic that you use to look outside instead of going out when you're holding the line").

Of course, I don't say with any certainty that this is what's happening here - I'm just saying that when fat cash was at stake I've seen it happen, and it was always sudden and pretty effective. Do not get paranoid and don't get accusing good people of doing this kinda' thing - just be aware that stuff like this... happens. And when it happens: just hold the line. Companies doing this are still aware how many voices are actual outrage, how many is actual support and how many are... "added to the mix".

Modifié par Koobarex, 19 mars 2012 - 07:40 .

[DemGeth]

2484Stryker wrote...

I disliked the endings and have clear reasons why I did, but at the same time, I also don't think that people who loved it are stupid - they're not, and they have their own reasons for liking it.

I can understand what Bioware was trying to do with the ending. I just think they didn't flesh out their idea very well and didn't do a good job bringing those ideas to fruition. But I can definitely see why people would enjoy the ending.

Still, to wrap up a three-game series where there's lots of invested emotions, I think Bioware's original ending idea was a bad one. Fans do deserve closure & finality to their actions, and the current ending failed miserably in that regard.

This basically.  i liked the ending but it lacked for exposition.  There's also a big oppritunity missed with the lead up with not seeing your war assests in action.  

But those things aren't enough for me to hold a line

[Dimensio]

Anastassia wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Evidence please.

The planet Earth. Also, there are between 200 and 400 billion stars in our galaxy, each with planets that carry a chance of having intelligent life. The panspermia theory is making some very interesting strides of late, but even without that, it's a numbers game. The likelihood of Earth being the only habitable planet, and humans being the only intelligent species, is incredibly arrogant and illogical.

The popularity of The Jersey Shore has caused me to question the conclusion that intelligent life actually exists on Earth.

[Shiran]

Dimensio wrote...

Shiran wrote...

Dimensio wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Persephone wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Shiran wrote...

Well, it is already like that? Those who do not gather enough assets do not get option for best ending (green ending)

It is not the "best" ending at all, it is the most nonsensical.
And still destroys the galaxy.

According to you. You ask for respect, yet you sneer at anyone who likes the endings. Yeesh, LET THEM.

I called synthesis nonsensical. It is. It makes no sense. It uses magic to solve a problem that exists only in the mind of the Catalyst.
How is that sneering at those who like it? You can like it all you want. It still makes no sense.

Synthesis seems illogical to many players because no previous in-game event or conversation reasonably foreshadowed it.  Previously, "synthesis" was only addressed with Saren -- whose "synthesis" was explicitly a part of his indoctrination -- and with the soldiers of the Reapers -- whose "synthesis" was actually a repurposing them to the Reaper's ends, using the bodies as tech transport and augmentation after killing the host -- which provided no reason for the player to ever consider "synthesis" to be a laudible goal.  The Catylist's claim that synthesis is the "next step" of the evolution of life is therefore without any meaningful contextual basis.

Had the story of the game -- or, preferably, of the trilogy -- provided subtle hints, even hints that were not obvious until referenced in a single event at the conclusion of the story, that synthesis was the ultimate (and desirable) conclusion of the relationship between organic and non-organic intelligence, the choice would not have been so illogical.

Synthesis with Saren and Cerberus was indoctrination as you pointed out. Specifically organics becoming modified in very crass ways by Reapers. Synthesis as outlined by the Catalyst is creation of entirely new DNA that applied equally to both organics and synthetics. Everything is changed and elevated to new standard. It not just Transhumanism it is also Transmachinism.

When, exactly, was this concept foreshadowed previously within the series or within the final game?

Why does foreshadowing matters? But EDI explicitely has a conversation with Shepard on Normandy about Transhumanism.

[savionen]

Almostfaceman wrote...

All the choices we made are rendered moot by the ending. Krogan and Turian friends? Too bad, their entire fleets are stranded in the Sol system, beat up and not designed for extended FTL travel to get home. Quarians and the Geth friends now? Too bad, what's left of them is stuck in the Sol system as well. Quarians have no place to re-supply. The Geth are possibly dead if you picked one of three choices that obliterated them. If alive, they are the only race that's got a chance sorta to get home. But even they are not designed or outfitted for extended FTL travel and their fleets are beat up all to heck by the Reapers. Turians are in the same muck as the Quarians. They have no way to re-supply and their ships are beat up all to heck and they can't eat human food, even if Earth was in its prime. The Hanar, the Elcor, the Drell, everyone who you brought to the fight are stranded with no way to get home in a beat up fleet. So, yay, I brought all these races together, to starve to death in the Sol system. 

Wait, let's get together on Earth and figure out how to get home! Well, that's not really a good idea, there's a ton of eezo floating about in the atmosphere and giant parts of the Citadel are possibly landing on Earth, and, well Earth is on fire and could very well suffer an Ice Age because of all the smoke in the atmosphere. No crops even for the humans. We could possibly retreat to a colony - but wait those have been hit by the Reapers as well. 

There are actual valid reasons that people are mad about the ending. The last 10 minutes invalidates everything Shepard has done. It's just that simple. Most people are playing the game to save the Krogan. The Turians. Liara. Tali. Shepard. They're not playing it for some grandpa and his kid thousands of years into the future.

And we don't even know how the grandpa got there. Is that the same planet that Joker landed on? Oh, that's right. Joker, who wouldn't leave Shepard behind and who wouldn't leave the battle until the entire fleet retreats or is destroyed, is for uncharacteristic reasons suddenly in a relay stream running away from the battle deserting Shepard, who he doesn't know is alive or dead, since he hasn't bothered to check. 

*sigh*

Basically this...

You unite the Krogans together to defeat the Reapers (well, they don't actually do anything to help, since Shepard hits the god-button regardless of whether you have 2k war assets or 10k). But they're just going to end up murdering eachother after the game is over.

[Costin_Razvan]

In ME2 the Illusive Man wanted the Reaper Technology and from there wanted to figure out how to Control them so he could save humanity. Thats how he got indoctrinated.

That leaves you with 1 non-indoctrinated choice: destroy them.

TIM getting indoctrinated does not mean he was wrong, by any stretch of the mind just like Saren wasn't wrong at all about the Council doing **** against the Reapers and about you not being able to stop them conventionally.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 mars 2012 - 07:31 .

[Emberwake]

I wouldn't actually say that liking tne ending is always an equally valid point of view. If you agree that deus ex machina is a poor plot device and I can prove that the Starchild is an example of deus ex machina,then it follows that the ending is poor.

Defending the current ending requires either a complete denial of logic or the acceptance of literary elements whick have been reviled by scholars for millennia.

Hold the line.

[smegmalongbeach]

Cosmar wrote...

I generally don't pay much attention to people who are unable to back up their opinions. It's fine if people like the endings, but when all they can say is that "it's artistic" or something to back that opinion up, I tend to ignore them.

everyone seems to ignore people who like the endings no matter what. I am amazed that no one will talk about the technological singularity and everyone just wants to either bad mouth bioware or bash the endings. why not discuss them, noone cares unless its indoctrination theory

mass effect at its core is about reapers and the mass relays

what we know is the mass relays and reapers are the solution to the technological singularity, sheppard breaks the cycle and now has to choose a new solution to the singularity and noone will talk about it. they just want to know why they didnt get to see what happens after the relays are destroyed, or cant get over the fact of where and why the normandy was escaping wasnt explained. really all the ending hate only needs one thread, and maybe another for indoctrination theory, you just say the same things over and over

i thought fans would want to talk about this kind of stuff but its official gamers are worse than hipsters

Modifié par smegmalongbeach, 19 mars 2012 - 07:33 .

[Lightice_av]

The Angry One wrote...

The Citadel is 7 billion metric tons. Earth has been ruined, but still livable with aid.
The fallout from the Citadel's mass will cause a nuclear winter, tiny pieces or not. Moreover, breaking into tiny pieces is an outright lie. We see the wards start to buckle before the scene changes, but they are still largely intact.

Pure speculation, not a fact in any sense. And we see plain as day that the station is tearing itself apart. Unless you actually see plunge to Earth intact, it's in no way "factual" that it would cause any kind of disaster. It can do any number of things from breaking into so small chunks it doesn't matter, to flinging itself to random direction as the Eezo stabilizers break down, or even just staying on a steady orbit as a new ring around the planet.

[Persephone]

dfstone wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

dfstone wrote...

Of the 3 choices you are presented with (Merge, Control & Destroy) Merge and Control were used to indoctrinate Saren and The Illusive Man so I think its kinda obvious you're not supposed to pick those.

Where they? I respectfully disagree on that.

Yes they were.  In ME1 Saren wanted to merge organics with the reapers.  He thought that would save everyone.  Thats how he got indoctrinated.
.

No. He wanted organics to make themselves useful to the Reapers, NOT merge with them.

Modifié par Persephone, 19 mars 2012 - 07:32 .

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

But they don't necessarily destroy the star systems like the asteroid did in Arrival, which was more like detonating a rocket launcher that killed a person. A more apt analogy in this case would be what happens to a human's arm (but not to the human as a whole) after operating a Claymore shotgun that he wasn't trained for.

Irrelevant, with no relay travel these devastated systems will wither and die. They NEED help.

1. The retreat order disproves this assertion...

There is no retreat order. The fleets remain at Sol right until the end. YOU SEE THEM DURING THE CATALYST SCENE.

That's SHIELD fleet moving in. Notice they're only ALLIANCE ships, too.

The retreat order exists only in your head.

Forward to 00:45.

2. ...and there is no chance that EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING in the galaxy went to Earth: they also have their own interests to protect.

Their strongest fleets and best people went to Earth. People like Wrex who are NEEDED by their people to lead them into a new era.

Read above.

The Citadel was blown to smithereens, to tiny bits that are comparable to a meteor shower landing on Earth's surface: almost no harm comes of it.

The wards are intact.
Let me state this again so you understand.

THE WARDS ARE INTACT.

You don't know that. You see the Citadel exploding as it fires its weapon. Even then, it may not necessarily fall into the Earth's atmosphere as an explosion can even knock it out of orbit.

[piemanz]

Almostfaceman wrote...

No, not really. Shepard subject's himself and the entire galaxy to the opinion and choices of Starchild. That, is surrender. In both word and deed.

Not when you look at in correct context. The whole point of Shep going to the citadel in the first place was to use the Crucible. It makes no diffrence what the Catalyst says really because Shep has zero other options other than to hope it works.

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In ME2 the Illusive Man wanted the Reaper Technology and from there wanted to figure out how to Control them so he could save humanity. Thats how he got indoctrinated.

That leaves you with 1 non-indoctrinated choice: destroy them.

TIM getting indoctrinated does not mean he was wrong, by any stretch of the mind just like Saren wasn't wrong at all about the Council doing **** against the Reapers and about you not being able to stop them conventionally.

PRECISELY.

[The Angry One]

saracen16 wrote...

And you're saying that choice won't matter? And how do you know that Wrex didn't retreat through the mass relay with the standing order?

Speculation.
Also, Wrex was fighting on Earth.

Wow, you are purposely not reading my posts. If you paid attention to the Quarian-Geth ending, the Quarians have begun settlement on Rannoch, and if you look at the war assets, you'll see that it's not the entire Quarian and Geth populations that have gone to war, but only some of them. If you even paid attention later in the game, for example, you may hear announcements about the Quarians having Geth upload into their suits to allow for better accomodation. But that depends on your choices, so it does matter.

The majority of the flotilla is at Earth, that means tons of their people. Tons of their people that should be helping resettle Rannoch. Their major assets, their life ships, are at Earth.

Conrad Verner went to help with the Crucible Project which (SURPRISE!) is NOT on the ****ing Citadel.

Assumptions.

Read above: she's become a reporter or an asset. Her ending got closure: she helped with the war effort. Where she is doesn't matter because you're not keeping tabs on every single person in the galaxy.

Ridiculous. You give her closure and then she dies horribly no matter what you decide.

If you save them, they help you, but I personally wiped them out because I mistrusted her.

They become another arbitrary score, the implcations built up in ME1 and 2 mean nothing.

That doesn't mean your choice didn't matter about the Destiny Ascension and other things that happened.

READ.

YOU READ. IT DOESN'T MATTER. You saved them so they DIE moments later.
They don't matter. The Destiny-Ascension doesn't matter. NOTHING MATTERS.

Even you know this, YOU rewrote the ending in your head and made assumptions to deal with it. Your argument is moot.

[Dimensio]

Koobarex wrote...

2) Then we have the "alternative croud". Lots of people are shouting about the endings being horrible? Well then, I'd better like 'em and like 'em hard, I'd better make sweet, sweet love to them with the use of this here purple-colored space magic!

I was not presented with a purple-coloured option.  Did I collect insufficient War Assets?

[savionen]

Lightice_av wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Citadel is 7 billion metric tons. Earth has been ruined, but still livable with aid.
The fallout from the Citadel's mass will cause a nuclear winter, tiny pieces or not. Moreover, breaking into tiny pieces is an outright lie. We see the wards start to buckle before the scene changes, but they are still largely intact.

Pure speculation, not a fact in any sense. And we see plain as day that the station is tearing itself apart. Unless you actually see plunge to Earth intact, it's in no way "factual" that it would cause any kind of disaster. It can do any number of things from breaking into so small chunks it doesn't matter, to flinging itself to random direction as the Eezo stabilizers break down, or even just staying on a steady orbit as a new ring around the planet.

And you're just speculating that it somehow doesn't drop to Earth.

[savionen]

Persephone wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In ME2 the Illusive Man wanted the Reaper Technology and from there wanted to figure out how to Control them so he could save humanity. Thats how he got indoctrinated.

That leaves you with 1 non-indoctrinated choice: destroy them.

TIM getting indoctrinated does not mean he was wrong, by any stretch of the mind just like Saren wasn't wrong at all about the Council doing **** against the Reapers and about you not being able to stop them conventionally.

PRECISELY.

So... Kill TIM because he's a madman. Kill Saren because he's a madman. Use their ideas anyway. That sounds... good.