This line of thinking gives me a migraine.
Either the Reapers have been fried, or their components are intact. If their components are intact then.... everybody gets to be indoctrinated. \\o/
EternalAmbiguity wrote...
DragonRageGT wrote...
The only way to like the endings is if they are not real. At least for those who did play since ME1. With very few exceptions. If there is some explanation for all the b/s in the last 10 minutes, then those 10 minutes could be brilliant. As it is now, it is just b/s.
Just check the Pool about the endings. It is now 55.4k dislikes against 1.2k likes. That's gotta mean something.
http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/
Please, PLEASE tell me you misspoke here.
Because that's completely absurd. Utterly and completely absurd.
Lightice_av wrote...
Fried or not, the tech is still there.
The corpses are totally intact. And Indoctrination is something that the Reapers have full conscious control over.
In the endings where they live they have no reason to indoctrinate anybody, anymore.
Modifié par Fl1xx, 19 mars 2012 - 09:07 .
Again, it's based on straightforward plot convenience: problems require solutions for sequels to emerge. There is a blatant solution, hence it will be utilized in some shape or form. The Reapers are arrogant and merciless, but they aren't motivated by malice. They lose their ultimate purpose in Synthesis, so the only real paths they have is to either benefit the new life, or commit suicide as failures.The Angry One wrote...
Assuming that the Reapers will help is also based on nothing. Maybe in the control ending. Maybe. Synthesis? They're not obligated to do a damn thing, not even not kill you.
Erm... derelict Reaper in ME2?
Modifié par Lightice_av, 19 mars 2012 - 09:10 .
Assuming that the Reapers will help is also based on nothing. Maybe in the control ending. Maybe. Synthesis? They're not obligated to do a damn thing, not even not kill you.
If anyone can rebute anything that is described in this article, particularly reason 3, Lore Errors and Plot Holes, congratulations. You would be a fine addition to EA's PR team.
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 mars 2012 - 09:13 .
kunzite wrote...
I wouldnt call people stupid, just because they liked the endings. People have differing opinions, and their opinion is just as valid as yours, or as mine, or as someone elses. No wonder people think we're whining.
Shiran wrote...
DragonRageGT wrote...
The only way to like the endings is if they are not real. At least for those who did play since ME1. With very few exceptions. If there is some explanation for all the b/s in the last 10 minutes, then those 10 minutes could be brilliant. As it is now, it is just b/s.
Just check the Pool about the endings. It is now 55.4k dislikes against 1.2k likes. That's gotta mean something.
http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/
It means that self selecting pool of people who are upset will come in and vote en masse. Which they did. It means that vast majority of people who bought the game and paid for it do not read this forum, or that particular topic and / or don't care either way (people who actually responded to that polls is less than 5% of people who actually bought the game)
Also, popular doesn't not make right.
Ryokun1989 wrote...
Tyrzun wrote...
Ryokun1989 wrote...
Tyrzun wrote...
You are not informed enough to make an argument, but you keep on trying to insult those that don't like the 3. When you still don't understand the real issue. So, I'll explain it to you again.
Chris and Mike the producers. Promised there would NOT BE A, B, C generic endings and there are. They promised the choices from ME 1 and ME 2 would effect the ending we get. A very personalized endings. They also said there would be no loop holes. They said to do generic endings would be totally wrong and against what ME stands for and has been.
Theese boards have multiple threads where people went through the trouble to post all the articles where these direct quotes from the producers came from. They flat out lied to the long time fans.
It's a fact. You have no grounds.
Anyone liking the 3 or not, has nothing to do with them not being the endings were were promised. It's funny that there are 3 when Chris specifically said there wouldn't be 3, but many more different endings that tie up all loose ends. The ending was EXACTLY what they said it wouldn't be.
I'm not arguing against that. You're perfectly in your right to be upset about that, and those quotes were either 'spoken too soon' by Casey, or possibly misunderstood by the magazine he told them to.
But that doesn't make the ending *bad*. Just different from what you expected/were promised.
Won't be the first time that hapens.
Well, most of the angry people are actually mad about what I was explaining. They just sum it up as saying they hate the ending. I understand the confusion.
I wouldn't mind "loosing" as Shep does. Option Blue and Green are just 2 different giving in to indoctrination. Red is you breaking free of it which is why you wake up. I get that. it's clear. IF that happened in the game and then everything else was resloved after that, the things we were promised I'd be fine.
As a side note most of the people that like the endings don't get them, even the ones that think they do. Most everyone starves and the war breaks out like Mad Max style over the minimal supplies left. Star flight is over, no supplies. AND most importantly reaper parts are on all major planets. Reaper parts indoctrinate people. It's what happened to the Illusive Man and is explained in ME multiple times. Being around a dead reaper still indoctrinates you. So, everyone on the major planets under attack gets indoctrinated. Earth is dead. The debrie of the giant ships comes crashing to earth. One 100 yard long meteor pretty much destroys half of the earth and pusts ash into the sky, so all plant growth stops. MANY MANY MANY large pieces will fall into the earth from the battle. Nothing you did saved Earth.
The explosions from the mass relays are destructive. Which is why Joker is out running the explosions as they DAMAGE the ship. Thes same blast takes out each solar system a mass effect relay is in. So all electronics were destroyed as the explosions were obviously damaging the Normandy. Remember again how large the explosions were, they covered the entire SYSTEM the mass effect relay is in. NO ship got away from that explosion, even if they made it through a relay.
ME 3 has a new writer and she's obviously not educated on anything scientific at all. These endings are garbage and so full of plot holes it's ridiculous. That's besides the fact they aren't what we were promised.
You started out well, but then began a rant. I don't believe the indoctrination theory at all. See the link in my signature for some of my thoughts.
The explosions from the mass relays are NOT destructive; that's why the earth doesn't blow up (unless you didn't have enough assets). What the waves do is effectuate the choice you made throughout the galaxy.
Reapers can't indoctrinate people if they're DESTROYED (not killed), controlled by Shepard, or no longer reapers.
"As a side note most people who dislike the endings don't actually understand them." Two can play at that game.
sp0ck 06 wrote...
Posted this a few days ago but it got lost in these fast moving forums
I managed to avoid completely spoiling myself, but I knew people hated it, that Shep died, and that something drastic happened at the very end. i braced myself for the worst.
I could clearly see why people are upset by the ending. The gamer in me hated the ending, its abruptness, its ambiguitity, and its lack of closure. What the hell happened with the Normandy? What happened to the races, and my friends (the ones left living by the end)? I wanted answers! I deserve answers, after who knows how many hours spent playing these games.
After letting the ending stew for a few days, playing some MP, starting an Adept playthrough, I decided I loved the IDEA of the ending, it was just incomplete.
I was reminded of 2001, mixed with some Matrix Revolutions and a side of Contact with Ender's Game. I love where they were going with the ending. I was expected the Dark Energy "mass relays use dark energy and the Reapers ensure everything doesn't die by stopping advanced civilizations from using the relays."
Instead, we got, for lack of a better term, some crazy S**t! Suddenly the game was delving deep into questions about the nature of the universe, time, chaos versus order, intelligent design. I really appreciate what BioWare was trying to do. This is not a videogame ending. It's a terrible videogame ending. But I think its a pretty cool ending to a piece of fiction.
The Starkid represented a vast, incomprehensible sythetic intelligence. While it was certainly the driving force behind the Reapers, I don't think it was directly controlling them like Harby controlled the Collectors. A lot of people have pointed out flaws in the Starkids logic. This makes sense, because it's logic IS flawed. It is trying to maintain an order, a "solution" to what it views as the chaos of organic evolution. This fits with what the Reapers have been telling us all along. Sovvy said "we impose order on the chaos..."
The Starkid's motiviation was not borne out of trying to preserve life, but preserve order. Thus I think the ending s less about the literal "i build synthetics to kill organics to prevent them building synthetics to kill them" and more about deep question of order vs chaos. The cycle, the Crucible, the war against the Reapers, it all comes across as a test. A system established before time by some intelligence (presumably organic: going by the Starkid's own words, he must have been created at some point). The Starkid is the caretaker of this system, the impetus that drives the rotation of the galaxy. The Reapers are just tools of that system. I don't think the Reapers truly understand the nature of their existence, but they do have purpose.
Shepard, as the first organic to compete the Crucible and "activate" the Catalyst, is the literal represention of chaos, just as the Starkid represents order. This diacotomy is also expressed in the final conversation between TIM and Andersen. The Starkid, although seemingly godlike from Shepard's POV, is ultimately just a much a slave to the system as a Reapers and TIM. It's unable to make the final choice, leaving that to Shepard. So really the choices boil down to:
Control: Accept the validity of the system, assuming the Starkid's role as a machine-god maintaining the "old order" of the galaxy (reminds me most of 2001)
Synth: The system is flawed because it only represents one half of the universe's order: the synthetic, logical, scientific approach. It requires the inherently chaotic input of an organic lifeform to achieve balance.
Destroy: The system is flawed beyond repair. It nullifies free will by "determining" the continued, "harvested" existence of organic life is more valuable than the life in of its own. It values preservation of the order over faith in evolution to drive on its own.
This is how I interpreted the endings. I love the idea of these endings. BioWare has some cajones to let Shepard decide the ultimate fate of the galaxy from a metaphysical level.
WHAT I HATE IS THE IMPLEMENTATION
These endings are HUGE. I mean, this is the ultimate choice: you're basically confronted by a god and asked how you think the universe should procede from here. Yet the critics who say the theres only 1 ending, 3 colors, are absolutely right. We aren't shown anything that happened, just some silly "Lost" esque sequence with the Normandy and a bunch of stuff blowing up. What happened to the fleets? Our friends? The Citadel? Th explosions from the relays? WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GALAXY AFTER I DETERMINED ITS VERY NATURE???
It's disappointing, because I really believe if BioWare had just provided some closure the fans would have embrace d these endings and the idea behind them. As it is, all we get is the Stargazer thing, which was cool, but all that told was some life survived, along with legends of Shepard. Hell, even just text would have done. Did the geth rebel again? What happened to the fleets? Were all the relays destroyed, and the solar systems with them? Just want answers!!!!!!
TLDR: BioWare, I love the direction that you went with in the ending. I love how you truly tried to transcend the tired videogame format. But as a gamer, I want some closure to the choices I've made throughout this game. Just tell us what happened!
Modifié par Ryokun1989, 19 mars 2012 - 09:17 .
You are indoctrinated in Blue and Green.
Lightice_av wrote...
Again, it's based on straightforward plot convenience: problems require solutions for sequels to emerge.
There is a blatant solution, hence it will be utilized in some shape or form. The Reapers are arrogant and merciless, but they aren't motivated by malice. They lose their ultimate purpose in Synthesis, so the only real paths they have is to either benefit the new life, or commit suicide as failures.
Defense mechanism. It's made explicitly clear that the Reapers can control their Indoctrination in normal circumstances; heavy Indoctrination makes people drooling vegetables in weeks, while subtle keeps them intelligent and useful for years.
Lightice_av wrote...
This line of thinking gives me a migraine.
Either the Reapers have been fried, or their components are intact. If their components are intact then.... everybody gets to be indoctrinated. o/
Fried or not, the tech is still there. The corpses are totally intact. And Indoctrination is something that the Reapers have full conscious control over. In the endings where they live they have no reason to indoctrinate anybody, anymore.
Modifié par Crusina, 19 mars 2012 - 09:23 .
The Angry One wrote...
They do not lose their purpose in synthesis.
Hybrids create machine.
Machine has AI.
AI wipes out hybrids.
Crusina wrote...
Dormant, is a lot different from dead.
If its mass effect core was still going in ME2, I'm pretty sure it wasn't dead.
The Angry One wrote...
They plan no sequels. Only prequels. Mac Walters himself has said the universe from this point has "ended" (in storytelling terms lest someone deliberately misinterpret).
They do not lose their purpose in synthesis.
Hybrids create machine.
Machine has AI.
AI wipes out hybrids.
So? The Reaper was derelict and dormant, it's systems damaged and deactivated. It still indoctrinated.
This defence mechanism is likely automatic, and if the Reaper technology is still intact, then so is the mechanism. Indoctrination for everyone!
Tyrzun wrote...
Wrong. You don't understand what you are talking about.
Why is the Normandy taking more damage the closer the blast gets? No matter what color it is?
Now also if you read ME lor or played the DLC from ME 2 it would be explained to you that any mass relay destroyed takes out the system it is in. So, you can't have it both ways.
You are indoctrinated in Blue and Green. The Prothean AI says specifically how the biologicals fail. Says someone always thinks they can control the Reapers and can't just like The Illusive Man does. IF you get the best ending he kills himself because he realizes you CAN'T control them and are indoctrinated, but who do you think kept telling him he can? The Reapers... just like the Prothean AI said. Synthesis is the SAME thing, putting yourself into the machine.
So, like I said if you have all of this information it's clear what happens to Shep.
And almost everyone else dies. If you knew anything about history, when people don't have food or water, they become violent and uncivilized in a fight for survival. That's what happens to most of the biological that survive and are on the mostly destroyed planets.
Those people that "like" the endings think they really are going to control the Reapers... which is pretty funny. When they are told specifially that is exactly what Saren believed first and then The Illusive Man. Considering, you don't know that or they don't know that, one can only assume you weren't paying attention when you were told that. Or you didn't play ME 1. If you did you would see that it's A. Another huge contradiction and massive plot hole. Or B. Indoctrination.
The crappy wrtting was left purposfully vague enough to give you some wiggle room to make up whatever you want, but your theory is directly contradicted in ME 1, ME 2, and ME 3.
Anyways, the endings based on our choices in ME 1 and ME 2 were not delivered.
Ryokun1989 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
They do not lose their purpose in synthesis.
Hybrids create machine.
Machine has AI.
AI wipes out hybrids.
Hybrids combine the all strengths of synthetics and organics with none of the weaknesses. At least according to Saren in Mass Effect 1.
But that's not even the point; synthetics and organics become one; there's no distinction any more. They're machines themselves just as much as they are organics.
Fl1xx wrote...
I suspect astroturfing, but that's probably just my lack of trust in large corporations and governing bodies.
Ryokun1989 wrote...
Tyrzun wrote...
Wrong. You don't understand what you are talking about.
Why is the Normandy taking more damage the closer the blast gets? No matter what color it is?
Now also if you read ME lor or played the DLC from ME 2 it would be explained to you that any mass relay destroyed takes out the system it is in. So, you can't have it both ways.
You are indoctrinated in Blue and Green. The Prothean AI says specifically how the biologicals fail. Says someone always thinks they can control the Reapers and can't just like The Illusive Man does. IF you get the best ending he kills himself because he realizes you CAN'T control them and are indoctrinated, but who do you think kept telling him he can? The Reapers... just like the Prothean AI said. Synthesis is the SAME thing, putting yourself into the machine.
So, like I said if you have all of this information it's clear what happens to Shep.
And almost everyone else dies. If you knew anything about history, when people don't have food or water, they become violent and uncivilized in a fight for survival. That's what happens to most of the biological that survive and are on the mostly destroyed planets.
Those people that "like" the endings think they really are going to control the Reapers... which is pretty funny. When they are told specifially that is exactly what Saren believed first and then The Illusive Man. Considering, you don't know that or they don't know that, one can only assume you weren't paying attention when you were told that. Or you didn't play ME 1. If you did you would see that it's A. Another huge contradiction and massive plot hole. Or B. Indoctrination.
The crappy wrtting was left purposfully vague enough to give you some wiggle room to make up whatever you want, but your theory is directly contradicted in ME 1, ME 2, and ME 3.
Anyways, the endings based on our choices in ME 1 and ME 2 were not delivered.
There's other theories doing the rounds you know. Stop being so self-righteous.
If the blasts are so destructive, why doesn't the earth get destroyed; but only the reapers?
Obviously not the same thing is happening as in The Arrival. In fact, if you look closely the Relay that blows up FIRST fires away all its energy before being destroyed.
Modifié par Tyrzun, 19 mars 2012 - 09:34 .
Tyrzun wrote...
Ryokun1989 wrote...
Tyrzun wrote...
Wrong. You don't understand what you are talking about.
Why is the Normandy taking more damage the closer the blast gets? No matter what color it is?
Now also if you read ME lor or played the DLC from ME 2 it would be explained to you that any mass relay destroyed takes out the system it is in. So, you can't have it both ways.
You are indoctrinated in Blue and Green. The Prothean AI says specifically how the biologicals fail. Says someone always thinks they can control the Reapers and can't just like The Illusive Man does. IF you get the best ending he kills himself because he realizes you CAN'T control them and are indoctrinated, but who do you think kept telling him he can? The Reapers... just like the Prothean AI said. Synthesis is the SAME thing, putting yourself into the machine.
So, like I said if you have all of this information it's clear what happens to Shep.
And almost everyone else dies. If you knew anything about history, when people don't have food or water, they become violent and uncivilized in a fight for survival. That's what happens to most of the biological that survive and are on the mostly destroyed planets.
Those people that "like" the endings think they really are going to control the Reapers... which is pretty funny. When they are told specifially that is exactly what Saren believed first and then The Illusive Man. Considering, you don't know that or they don't know that, one can only assume you weren't paying attention when you were told that. Or you didn't play ME 1. If you did you would see that it's A. Another huge contradiction and massive plot hole. Or B. Indoctrination.
The crappy wrtting was left purposfully vague enough to give you some wiggle room to make up whatever you want, but your theory is directly contradicted in ME 1, ME 2, and ME 3.
Anyways, the endings based on our choices in ME 1 and ME 2 were not delivered.
There's other theories doing the rounds you know. Stop being so self-righteous.
If the blasts are so destructive, why doesn't the earth get destroyed; but only the reapers?
Obviously not the same thing is happening as in The Arrival. In fact, if you look closely the Relay that blows up FIRST fires away all its energy before being destroyed.
Beause it's a contradiction! That's the point. The writting is garbage and contradicts itself so many times with the "endings". Liar is with me charging for the light on the ground, we all get blasted... then she's magically with Joker crashing on a planet. You're finally starting to see the point. Utter and totaly contradictions right and left. Of everything we've been taught and told.
5 minutes before you agree to be indoctrinated. YOU as Shep tells TIM that you can't control tthe reapers, it's a trick. They control you... and thus he shoots himself. Yet, now that he the betrayers is DEAD they target you as the betrayer and you start thinking you can play nice with the Reapers and control them. Explain why Shepard would change his toon that fast? And forget Reapers can't be controlled... oh right because Harbinger told him so... aka Starchild.
You seem to follow your own logic. How do you not see all of these contradictions?
Turtlicious wrote...
Fl1xx wrote...
I suspect astroturfing, but that's probably just my lack of trust in large corporations and governing bodies.
And the weird part is either there are WAY more of them now,
or they're just getting really bad at it. Everyone I've seen defend the ending seems to be thinking along some really broken logic, like they have a shield that reasonable arguments bounce off of. On top of that, they're normally rude, I just 1 star Pro-Endingers. and leave. I'm tired of trying to reason with people who insult me.
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