1309 réponses à ce sujet

[DESTRAUDO]

Is slightly altering everyones DNA less 'good' than murdering all the geth and EDI?  

Tyrzun wrote...

Ryokun1989 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

They do not lose their purpose in synthesis.
Hybrids create machine.
Machine has AI.
AI wipes out hybrids.

Hybrids combine the all strengths of synthetics and organics with none of the weaknesses. At least according to Saren in Mass Effect 1.

But that's not even the point; synthetics and organics become one; there's no distinction any more. They're machines themselves just as much as they are organics.

Reapears are living sentient machines created with biological mass.

YOU decide to turn every living creater left alive from the starvation into a machine hybrid against their will.  Such a GOOD guy... Reaper act all the way.  To "save" the race they are all turned into one reaper by the reaper.  The Reapers win.  They've proven they can control any machine and any organic over and over... yeah, they are above lying to you

Sarne, Benezia(a matriarch super powerful one couldn't resist indoctrination), TIM, the protheans, the prothean AI, Javik, Liara, says they ALWAYS corrupt and mislead someone to betray their race.  You killed TIM so it becomes you.  Yet, you don't believe it, just like all those other corrupted ones you are told about.  The Reapers aren't lying to you.

Nevermind if you destroy the reapers aka defy indoctrination you actually wake up back on the ground in London, right under Harbinger.

[Vikali]

Turtlicious wrote...

Fl1xx wrote...

I suspect astroturfing, but that's probably just my lack of trust in large corporations and governing bodies.

And the weird part is either there are WAY more of them now,
or they're just getting really bad at it. Everyone I've seen defend the ending seems to be thinking along some really broken logic, like they have a shield that reasonable arguments bounce off of. On top of that, they're normally rude, I just 1 star Pro-Endingers. and leave. I'm tired of trying to reason with people who insult me.

I participate in the debates of theories arguing for both sides, and I like the endings. If anything, I've had mroe insults tossed at me more by anti-enders than any other group. Mainly because they disagree. The only group I act a little harse to are the ones who want a magic button that just makes the reapers disappear instead so you can live happily ever after. As if that's any better.

But most of those peole have seem to have silenced lately. Thankfully.

[kalasaurus]

I hated the ending at first too, but the "Indoctrination Theory" gave me hope that there's more to it than what we were given. Even if it's a completely bogus assertion and what we see is what we get, it still makes me content with what we were given.

I don't think I can be OK with the Normandy scene, though. It just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to know that the people that Shepard cares about decided to ditch her when she needs them the most. Unless *that* was a dream too. I just don't know.

[Ryokun1989]

Hey GlassElephant.. it's my personal conviction the final planet is in fact Arcadia.

[DESTRAUDO]

GlassElephant wrote...

I hated the ending at first too, but the "Indoctrination Theory" gave me hope that there's more to it than what we were given. Even if it's a completely bogus assertion and what we see is what we get, it still makes me content with what we were given.

I don't think I can be OK with the Normandy scene, though. It just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to know that the people that Shepard cares about decided to ditch her when she needs them the most. Unless *that* was a dream too. I just don't know.

Anyone who can take the indoctrination theory seriously needs to be willing to swallow that concept wholesale. If shepard really wakes up at the end in london on the renegade ending then none of the ending happened. It was either all an indoctrination dream or it was not. Any argument that justifies that part of it was a dream can be used to justify it was all a dream. 

[Lightice_av]

I really hope that they don't redo the endings simply because that pretty much ensures that they end up making them as inoffensive and straightforward as possible to avoid another bout of fan rage. I'm OK with the idea of tweaking the current endings to wider variety, with clear change in details depending on your earlier choices; the one big failing of the ending as it is is that you don't get to see how people react to the decision you made, and that's something that could stand corrected. But I doubt that most of the complainers would agree with that. Nothing short of this will satisfy the majority at this point.

[kalasaurus]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

I hated the ending at first too, but the "Indoctrination Theory" gave me hope that there's more to it than what we were given. Even if it's a completely bogus assertion and what we see is what we get, it still makes me content with what we were given.

I don't think I can be OK with the Normandy scene, though. It just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to know that the people that Shepard cares about decided to ditch her when she needs them the most. Unless *that* was a dream too. I just don't know.

Anyone who can take the indoctrination theory seriously needs to be willing to swallow that concept wholesale. If shepard really wakes up at the end in london on the renegade ending then none of the ending happened. It was either all an indoctrination dream or it was not. Any argument that justifies that part of it was a dream can be used to justify it was all a dream. 

Yeah, probably.  I just wanted more closure than what I was given.  I'm on the fence on the theory, but I guess you're right about it being all or nothing.  "None of it really happened" is better than the crap fest I was shown.

[Funkcase]

I thought the ending was great up until the catalyst showed up. I thought the music, the scene with Anderson and The illusive man and the whole of the London mission were fantastic! Just the Catalyst and plot holes ruined it, but if ower choices mattered, the Catalyst explained everything better to us, and the plot holes were gone; then I think the ending would've been exceptional.

Modifié par Funkcase, 19 mars 2012 - 10:06 .

[Irishkev]

I just thought I pop in a say why the earth is not destroyed by the beam of light and its easy. The reason it's not destroyed yet is because you see the beam hit earth before it goes to the relay

after which the citadel fires another shot that  goes to the relay and starts a chain explosion so assuming the Mass relay causes systems death upon explosion which was establisted in DLC and the books earth is gone.

Modifié par Irishkev, 19 mars 2012 - 10:00 .

[Ryokun1989]

GlassElephant wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

I hated the ending at first too, but the "Indoctrination Theory" gave me hope that there's more to it than what we were given. Even if it's a completely bogus assertion and what we see is what we get, it still makes me content with what we were given.

I don't think I can be OK with the Normandy scene, though. It just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to know that the people that Shepard cares about decided to ditch her when she needs them the most. Unless *that* was a dream too. I just don't know.

Anyone who can take the indoctrination theory seriously needs to be willing to swallow that concept wholesale. If shepard really wakes up at the end in london on the renegade ending then none of the ending happened. It was either all an indoctrination dream or it was not. Any argument that justifies that part of it was a dream can be used to justify it was all a dream. 

Yeah, probably.  I just wanted more closure than what I was given.  I'm on the fence on the theory, but I guess you're right about it being all or nothing.  "None of it really happened" is better than the crap fest I was shown.

It's not necessarily  "None of it really happened"!
It can be a metaphysical place; it's both metaphor and has an effect on the rest of the universe.

[LadyofRivendell]

Counterculture. Hipsters. People who think it's cool to go against the norm for the sake of being different to annoy all the mainstreamers.

Or, you know, one or two of them may actually believe what they're arguing.

[kalasaurus]

Ryokun1989 wrote...

It's not necessarily  "None of it really happened"!
It can be a metaphysical place; it's both metaphor and has an effect on the rest of the universe.

Also a possibility, taking in mind the Stargazer and Child scene after the credits.  I really am glad I went back to the forums and explored all of the fans' interpretations of the ending.

I wasn't happy with the ending, but to go back to the OP I don't think the people who liked the ending were stupid or didn't "get it".  You got to make the ultimate choice that decided the fate of the galaxy.  It sucked how they executed the consequences with a change in color scheme and showing whether or not Earth was incinerated (and then Joker/EDI), but what we see is what we get (for now).

Modifié par GlassElephant, 19 mars 2012 - 10:20 .

[Funkcase]

LadyofRivendell wrote...

Counterculture. Hipsters. People who think it's cool to go against the norm for the sake of being different to annoy all the mainstreamers.

Or, you know, one or two of them may actually believe what they're arguing.

Labelling people as hpsters is actually a very hipster thing to do you know...

[kalasaurus]

double post, sorry

Modifié par GlassElephant, 19 mars 2012 - 10:19 .

[DESTRAUDO]

Puts on devils advocate trollface.

I have decided the indoctrination theory is now the way to go.

What if all of ME3 was indoctrination. In the Arrival DLC you get knocked out beside a reaper artefact and everything after that is a dream. Afterall it is so unrealistic. You wake up with no one guarding you even though you are incredibly dangerous. That makes no sense. You wake up at all even though they sent a veritable army and ymir mechs to kill you in the room with that artefact. Everything after that is clearly a paragon or renegade fantasy.

You magically escape your captors. Survive a point blank grenade explosion with only a headache. You escape via a mass relay even though the destruction of the relay would collapse the mass free corridor you are using to escape ( if the ending of me3 is to be believed)

You then go on to face no repercussions for your actions no matter how severe, like murdering all those batarian colonists, and then go on to engage in impossible deed after impossible deed that fulfils your characters greatest hopes, curing the genophage, bringing an end to a war with a 20 second speech, going inside the geth consciousness, seeing the lives of some of your comrades come to meaningful and emotional conclusions, and happening to run into all your comrades in some way seemingly in most cases by random chance and coincidence. You resolve all your goals via a magical giant machine which allows you to in a single stroke change the galaxy.

Whole thing sounds like the fantasy of a dying indoctrinated brain to me.

I guess i should petition for EA/Bioware to release the REAL mass effect 3.

Removes trollface.

Modifié par DESTRAUDO, 19 mars 2012 - 10:30 .

[Greil9]

Okay, I'll try to pull the plug on this ridiculous argument.

First of all to those who like it: I may disagree with you, but I don't care what you think. If we get a new ending, what does it take aay from you? Is is that your ending will no longer be pure and will be spoiled by explaining it? Well maybe we don't see some deeper meaning in it and just want to see how our choices matter and how the story ends. Either way, haven't we proven our case and made clear why we think the ending is just bad? Just take the ending as it is and let us have one we are satisfied with.

Second to Indoctrination theorists: Even if you're part of the group wo prefer to keep the ending as just indoctrination dream/nightmare, wouldn't you want to see what's happening in reality? Think of the chances of it all, seeing what Shepard is actually doing. It's unlikely he's just acting as their slave or there would be no dream (remember ow Benezia described the feeling in ME1).

To those wishing for new ending: Why should we argue with these other groups. they disagree with us, so what? Let them take what they want form this ending. We should focus our efforts against Bioware, not fight amongst our fellow gamers.

I'll end with this. Those who are satisfied with the ending, good for you. the rest of us, let us concentrate on Bioware.

[rtv053]

I completed it last night, for the first time. Chose 'Destroy', and had enough war assets to combine with threatening and killing TIM so that Shep survived. My girlfriend finished it before me (by pulling an amazing all-nighter on it whilst I had to sleep for work ), and she chose 'Merge'.

Based on what I've seen, I believe that, despite their flaws (which I'll come to later), they are in their own way a very beautiful and fitting end to the series.

What I liked...

1) I thought the final battle across London was EPIC in every sense of the word, and in that I include the big confrontation between TIM and Shep in the Citadel. I felt very much that at that point, all the narrative streams had converged, and in its own way, by mirroring the confrontation with Saren at the end of ME1, had brought the series full-circle.

2) I liked the fact that the Reaper Architect took the form of the child from Vancouver. I know some people believe this is proof of indoctrination, but I see it as a very common sci-fi trope of a very advanced lifeform taking on a shape or form that is 'comfortable' or acceptable for the less-advanced species. When Shep makes his way to the very top of the Citadel, the RA realises that its solution is no longer viable. It calculates the new possibilities generated by the Crucible, and then appears to Shepard in a form that will best symbolise the stakes; the child is the one symbol of the war that Shep has obssesed over since the start. It works.

3) The 'Destroy' ending felt suitably destructive for me, and it was a nice moment to see the soldiers back on Earth celebrating as the reapers collapsed. The 'Merge' ending had its own sense of hope, to see the fighting just... stop. At any rate, the destruction of the Mass Relays heralds a paradigm change that has been hinted at/called for from the very first game. The fact is that galactic civilization has evolved along the lines the Reapers chose, and THAT is why they were such a formidable foe. We relied on THEIR technology. Having the opportunity to evolve and improve on our own terms - THAT is what was truly needed for the galactic community. I know that, for now, it seems grim... but taking a cosmic view of history and time, it is also supremely hopeful. It may not be strictly feel-good, but it is GOOD sci-fi. And trust me, its not as depressing as some of the greater works of science fiction.

4) To me, the cinematography and music of the Normandy stranding scene doesn't suggest hardship, or despair, or incest, or whatever other criticisms have been levelled at it... to me, it all suggested a sense of a new adventure, just beginning. Especially the way the music segues into the credits... (btw? The 'Shep is alive!' scene totally ruined the ending music!)

What I didn't like...

1) No closure for the specifics of the story. In my playthrough, the Krogan were cured, and the Quarians and Geth made peace. I want to know that, given the new political/social climate and infrastructure of the galaxy rendered by the destruction of the Mass Relays, how did those alliances hold up? Who survived? What did they go on to do? I don't want an expansive view of galactic history. You know what would do it for me? Just a scene showing Hackett strolling through the ruins of London, nodding his head at Grunt, Garrus, Samara, etc... a la the ending of ME2. Let me see Ashley clearing rubble. It doesn't have to be huge.

2) Not enough Harbinger at the end. I know that a one-on-one battle would have been ridiculous, but a meeting of minds, some kind of parley... just anything. He was an intriguing force in ME2, and it was sad that he was uniformly dropped.

[Shaigunjoe]

Some good ideas RTV! I especially like the part about the relay's being destroyed being necessary to break free from the reapers influence.

[Xeranx]

DragonRageGT wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

DragonRageGT wrote...

The only way to like the endings is if they are not real. At least for those who did play  since ME1. With very few exceptions. If there is some explanation for all the b/s in the last 10 minutes, then those 10 minutes could be brilliant. As it is now, it is just b/s.

Just check the Pool about the endings.  It is now 55.4k dislikes against 1.2k likes. That's gotta mean something.

http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/

Please, PLEASE tell me you misspoke here.

Because that's completely absurd. Utterly and completely absurd.

Ok, I'll try again since this is not my language: Not Real as in Shepard is dreaming, hallucinating, imagining or suffering an Indoctrination attempt. Well, he might as well be dead and that's some residual crap in his brain or in the limbo he went pos-death, before meeting with Garrus in the bar.

Because if the Reaper beam didn't kill him and that quick gasp for air in London means anything, then he definitely never set foot on the Citadel... yet. Unless the Enterprise teleporting beam was installed everywhere in the Galaxy in time for the final charge in London.

http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/

If anyone can rebute anything that is described in this article, particularly reason 3, Lore Errors and  Plot Holes, congratulations. You would be a fine addition to EA's PR team.

This is exactly how I took it.  I figure Shepard's imagining he/she made it to make a decision, makes the decision, and sees the result.  The destroy ending, however, strives for a real solution to the problem and Shepard wakes up.

[Lightice_av]

First of all to those who like it: I may disagree with you, but I don't care what you think. If we get a new ending, what does it take aay from you? Is is that your ending will no longer be pure and will be spoiled by explaining it?

The problem is that writing a completely new ending would pretty much throw a wrench in Bioware's artistic integrity, and make their game design essentially a matter of voting. When that road starts, there is no stop. I fear that it'll lead to increasingly generic choices on the company's part, and trying to please everybody simultaneously, they eventually end up pleasing nobody. In the case of ME3 the arguments for changing the ending will turn to arguments on whether the game was changed too much or not enough, or if it was changed the right way, or whether there still should be a happy ending, or is the ending too happy...It's extremely unlikely to actually resolve anything.

Personally I would like more depth added to the current endings, showing us how all the people we influenced react to our choices in the days and years following the war in some kind of montage. But the vast majority would still call that ending a cop-out and pour even more flames to the fire.

[KotorEffect3]

OP people have different opinions on the endings while most people didn't like them that doesn't mean other people have to automatically hate them. I didn't like the endings but I still loved the game. In fact once they get the import issues fixed I plan on jumping back into the first two games and playing the series from the beginning.

[Vikali]

Greil9 wrote...

Okay, I'll try to pull the plug on this ridiculous argument.

First of all to those who like it: I may disagree with you, but I don't care what you think. If we get a new ending, what does it take aay from you? Is is that your ending will no longer be pure and will be spoiled by explaining it? Well maybe we don't see some deeper meaning in it and just want to see how our choices matter and how the story ends. Either way, haven't we proven our case and made clear why we think the ending is just bad? Just take the ending as it is and let us have one we are satisfied with.

Second to Indoctrination theorists: Even if you're part of the group wo prefer to keep the ending as just indoctrination dream/nightmare, wouldn't you want to see what's happening in reality? Think of the chances of it all, seeing what Shepard is actually doing. It's unlikely he's just acting as their slave or there would be no dream (remember ow Benezia described the feeling in ME1).

To those wishing for new ending: Why should we argue with these other groups. they disagree with us, so what? Let them take what they want form this ending. We should focus our efforts against Bioware, not fight amongst our fellow gamers.

I'll end with this. Those who are satisfied with the ending, good for you. the rest of us, let us concentrate on Bioware.

None of us who like it are saying we want there to be no addition. I don't even know where you made that assumption. The problem is it's starting to get spammy. Near every thread is saying the same stuff, and threads that don't relate get pulled into the debate. It just getting tired.

I love some of the theories even though I like the ending. It's not a crime to debate or disagree.

[Piarath]

As more and more people beat the game, you're going to run into them. It's a simple inevitability. However... you're going to see more people who dislike the endings too (I'm seeing them more and more, and a lot of them are off the BSN) and more and more who just plain didn't like the game.

Some people were bound to like them. They're not stupid, and there's nothing wrong with them, some people just LIKE that sort of thing.

Though I wouldn't be surprised to find out a lot of people who like the endings started with this game.

[Vikali]

Piarath wrote...

As more and more people beat the game, you're going to run into them. It's a simple inevitability. However... you're going to see more people who dislike the endings too (I'm seeing them more and more, and a lot of them are off the BSN) and more and more who just plain didn't like the game.

Some people were bound to like them. They're not stupid, and there's nothing wrong with them, some people just LIKE that sort of thing.

Though I wouldn't be surprised to find out a lot of people who like the endings started with this game.

I don't understand that assumption, as a good portion of people I've debated with have never even touched the books. As if playing the first two games means something. I've played all three and read the books, and to this day, Wrex and Aria are my OTP and the two I am the most attached to. Even above my Shep and her LI.

People can have differing views when in the same situation. And I'm pretty sure most of the 'action mode people' don't even care enough to debate it anyway.

[KotorEffect3]

KitePolaris wrote...

Greil9 wrote...

Okay, I'll try to pull the plug on this ridiculous argument.

First of all to those who like it: I may disagree with you, but I don't care what you think. If we get a new ending, what does it take aay from you? Is is that your ending will no longer be pure and will be spoiled by explaining it? Well maybe we don't see some deeper meaning in it and just want to see how our choices matter and how the story ends. Either way, haven't we proven our case and made clear why we think the ending is just bad? Just take the ending as it is and let us have one we are satisfied with.

Second to Indoctrination theorists: Even if you're part of the group wo prefer to keep the ending as just indoctrination dream/nightmare, wouldn't you want to see what's happening in reality? Think of the chances of it all, seeing what Shepard is actually doing. It's unlikely he's just acting as their slave or there would be no dream (remember ow Benezia described the feeling in ME1).

To those wishing for new ending: Why should we argue with these other groups. they disagree with us, so what? Let them take what they want form this ending. We should focus our efforts against Bioware, not fight amongst our fellow gamers.

I'll end with this. Those who are satisfied with the ending, good for you. the rest of us, let us concentrate on Bioware.

None of us who like it are saying we want there to be no addition. I don't even know where you made that assumption. The problem is it's starting to get spammy. Near every thread is saying the same stuff, and threads that don't relate get pulled into the debate. It just getting tired.

I love some of the theories even though I like the ending. It's not a crime to debate or disagree.

That is the problem those of us that realize there was more to the game than the ending keep getting  the ending issue shoved into our face by those that want to force bioware's hand so they feel the need to spam everything thread with it.