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Mark Darrah on the conclusion of Dragon Age II


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#876
syllogi

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slashthedragon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mark Darrah wrote...

We will try to bring some closure to Hawke's story but likely not in a playable form. Originally we had planned to do an expansion pack but had to stop to focus on what we are working on now.


I doubt you can bring any type of decent resolution to Hawke in anything that's not a playable form, simply because the people that enjoyed Hawke would say "My Hawke wouldn't have done that" and the like.

You've only got a few options IMO: Keep working on an expansion or kill Hawke. Otherwise, it seems like peoples' Hawkes will be tampered with.

The latter option isn't one that people would like either methinks, and my faith in the former being of any decent quality is fairly low.


I agree with you completely.
And telling us the title would have beeen E xalted March?  Thanks for getting me excited and then devastated in the span of reading one announcement.
PLEASE tell me you didn't drop the DLC for more anime or comics....


I'm just going to keel over if they scrapped the expansion to focus on MULTIPLAYER for DA3.  :crying:

#877
warpiggg

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mark Darrah wrote...

We will try to bring some closure to Hawke's story but likely not in a playable form. Originally we had planned to do an expansion pack but had to stop to focus on what we are working on now.


I doubt you can bring any type of decent resolution to Hawke in anything that's not a playable form, simply because the people that enjoyed Hawke would say "My Hawke wouldn't have done that" and the like.

You've only got a few options IMO: Keep working on an expansion or kill Hawke. Otherwise, it seems like peoples' Hawkes will be tampered with.

The latter option isn't one that people would like either methinks, and my faith in the former being of any decent quality is fairly low.


I agree - Kill Hawke. Show the funeral in the opening scenes of the next game, just a coffin on a pyre, and the old companions gathered around (except for Bethany/Carver since they change to match custom-Hawkes, & they'd be away on Circle/Templar/Warden business). This satisfies the need for closure, and brings back some characters from DA2 that people seem to really want around. 

... Anyway, back to dreaming I was lead writer of my own fantasy game saga...:wizard:

#878
GeneralArrow

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syllogi wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mark Darrah wrote...

We will try to bring some closure to Hawke's story but likely not in a playable form. Originally we had planned to do an expansion pack but had to stop to focus on what we are working on now.


I doubt you can bring any type of decent resolution to Hawke in anything that's not a playable form, simply because the people that enjoyed Hawke would say "My Hawke wouldn't have done that" and the like.

You've only got a few options IMO: Keep working on an expansion or kill Hawke. Otherwise, it seems like peoples' Hawkes will be tampered with.

The latter option isn't one that people would like either methinks, and my faith in the former being of any decent quality is fairly low.


I agree with you completely.
And telling us the title would have beeen E xalted March?  Thanks for getting me excited and then devastated in the span of reading one announcement.
PLEASE tell me you didn't drop the DLC for more anime or comics....


I'm just going to keel over if they scrapped the expansion to focus on MULTIPLAYER for DA3.  :crying:

Multiplayer for Dragon Age III shouldn't exist. Period...I want them to focus on the single player and worry about multiplayer later as an expansion to the game.

#879
PatK

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I'll keep this to the point:

Things I love about both DA games:

* Character and story development is rich, complex and full of ethical conflict and moral ambiguity.
* Player decisions have far-reaching repercussions that are not immediately obvious.
* Romance possibilities, including the options for same-sex romances.
* Replayability. Yes, for DA2, too; I've played through it half a dozen times with various character/skill/relationship choices, enjoyed it every time, and even uncovered a couple of surprising new dialogue outcomes.

Things I liked better in DA:O:
* A broader world to play in, with more varied landscapes. *
* Ability to choose the order in which I play various "chapters," up to the endgame. That gives a stronger illusion of one's character being in control of his/her destiny.
* Being able to play non-human races.
* Once romance was achieved, romantic actions remained available. They were relatively meaningless, gameplay-wise, but being able to smooch on the street or run off to the tent enhanced the illusion of an ongoing relationship. In DA:2, everything after, um consummation felt a little like a letdown.

I also loved the origin stories - but not enough to demand them in every iteration of the game.

Things I liked better in DA:2:
* Voiced player character, and dialogue wheel - yes, including the fact that the character said more/different things than I sometimes expected, including things that made me laugh out loud.
* The cinematics. Beautifully done, although like many, I would have loved to see them at play in a larger, more varied world with fewer copycat dungeons.
* Character appearance builder. Very nicely refined, and the resulting characters wind up looking more human than they sometimes did in Origins. (I wish I could say the same for the cameos of Alistair, Zevran and Leliana, who didn't fare well in the new design scheme...)
* Improved combat. Especially for rogues.
* The redesigned Qunari. The redesigned Flemeth.

As much as I crave more Dragon Age, I hope Bioware won't rush it out. Many of the perceived flaws in DA2 seem to be due to hurrying the game out in three years.

#880
sea-

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Here we go. In no particular order:

1) Better character system. Two attributes for each class sucks. No non-combat skills or attributes sucks. Linear advancement sucks. Divorcing player progress from the economy sucks. Tiered and scaled loot and enemies suck. Random loot sucks. Advancement needs to offer multiple play styles that are appreciably different from one another and not "I get different animations when I mash the hotkeys". More character classes, sub-classes, specializations etc. are all appreciated too.

2a) No more filler. Dragon Age 2 (and Mass Effect 3 for that matter) were packed to the brim with padding - story-less, content-less fetch quests designed almost maliciously so as to maximize the time spent moving between A and B. This is disingenuous and transparent, and comes across not as giving the player lots of freedom and opportunity to explore the world, but as wasting time (and frankly, Dragon Age 2 was pretty much a waste of time).

2b) Same goes for all the enemy encounters, wave-based fights etc. Give all combat meaningful context and make encounters interesting through design rather than numbers. The game should be fun to play moment-to-moment, not some sort of mind-numbing MMO-style slog. If this means slightly shorter games, so be it.

3) For that matter, fire whoever designed your combat mechanics in Dragon Age 2. Its combat was terrible MMO-fied crap. When your combat relies exclusively on cooldowns and damage caps just to make it work, you have bad systems design, period. If an RPG has a well-built ruleset, you shouldn't need to resort to these sorts of stopgap measures for balance. This kind of stuff turns combat into "mash the hotkeys when the cooldowns finish" and completely kills any tactical considerations.

4) Make combat turn-based and, potentially, grid-based. Strategic overview is a must, as is full-party control. This half-assed action game crap needs to end. Nobody who cares about Dragon Age wants the game to be a bad Devil May Cry knock-off. I will settle for real-time-with-pause, but that has always been a poor compromise that usually fell apart when dealing with advanced tactics and coordination.

5) Dragon Age had a weak plot and Dragon Age 2 had a pointless plot that wasn't so much filled with holes as it was just stupid and directionless. There needs to be purpose, a goal that makes sense, and actions and events taking place that bring the player appreciably closer to that goal.  None of this "three years later, nothing has changed!" and frame story garbage that adds nothing to the experience except to raise more questions.

6) No generic fantasy crap. Do something crazy and off the wall - doesn't have to be Planescape, but after "I can't believe it's not Lord of the Rings" Dragon Age, I'm sick of this stuff. Give a radically new premise, a new setting, a new story. Dragon Age 2 tried but was let down by the monotony of its story and gameplay and by reducing Hawke to an errand boy/girl. How about pirates? Monks? Barbarians? Orlesian spies? The Dragon Age universe has some interesting bits in it, so stop going for the lowest-hanging fruit.

7) No dumb endings with nonexistent choices and consequences. "Everyone goes insane and kills each other because of an item the plot forgot about 20 hours ago" is not good writing. Players develop connections to characters and locations over the course of the game, and rendering their decisions meaningless at the end is not fun. Twists are good, and not everything needs to be happy, but if none of the choices made during the game influence the outcome, what's the point? Give players ways to influence characters, places and events that are logical and have a payoff.

8) Cut back on the romances and other crap. I know some players care about this but it feels like 50% of the game is in this stuff now (and certainly 90% of the choice and "consequence" i.e. what sex scene you get, derp), and I would much, much, much (much) rather have that development effort spent on game content relevant to the narrative.

9) Quests that can be solved by more than just killing people and picking dialogue options.  This will require a fundamental overhaul in the character system to allow for things like stealth and non-combat abilities to be viable, and requires designers to create situations that allow for multiple play-styles and outcomes.  Is this harder than "put a bunch of monsters in a room, ask the player to kill them, rinse and repeat"?  Yes, yes it is.  It will also make for a game that isn't boring and monotonous.  It's an RPG, so let me role-play in a way that is supported both by the story and the game mechanics and scenarios.

10) Full-party creation or easy "total respec" option for party members.  Being forced to tote around people you don't like because they fill a particular gameplay role, in a word, sucks.  Does this mean maybe companions won't be as unique?  Yes.  Guess what - I don't give a crap about Anders, or Fenris, or Leliana, or Zevran, or whatever.  They're fine characters but they don't need to be in my party and I don't need to have sex with them.  Put gameplay over this dating sim nonsense.

I could go on (and into far more detail about the fundamental problems modern BioWare RPGs have), but frankly I suspect none of this will actually be taken into account.  Dragon Age is a multi-million-selling franchise and it will be built to maximize returns while minimizing costs, which means it'll at best be an action game with stats and an inventory.  I'd be surprised at this point if it doesn't turn into a first-person open-world hack-and-slash game with online multiplayer and a cash shop.

Still, thanks for asking.

Modifié par sea-, 20 mars 2012 - 12:28 .


#881
Guest_PresidentCowboy_*

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GeneralArrow wrote...

hunterxx1xx wrote...

hunterxx1xx wrote...

If DA3 comes out with a day 1 dlc I will not be buying it.


Sorry to hear about this. To be clear, is this specific to not wanting to purchase the Day 1 DLC or the product offering it?

This is specifically because for one, day 1 dlc shouldn't even exist. It should already be on the game. Second reason, although its good to get people to buy the game when you advertise, "free dlc with pre-order of the game", the gamers who want to read reviews of the game first can't get this free content. 





This is an excellent, point I didn't even consider people who actually read reviews. He is right, Day one DLC is a deal breaker for many.


The worst part about day one DLC for me is, when I get a game I don't want to spend hours installing the discs, downloading content and typing in codes before playing. I mean when ME3 arrived I was giddy with excitement but it took like two hours until I had everything ready to play...

#882
DaBigDragon

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So, Mike or Mark, does this thread basically confirm that there will be no more DLC for DA2 and I can finish my Hawke's that I've put on hold waiting for DLC news?

Thanks!

#883
LPPrince

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LyallxFidelis wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

There we go. That's all I've got on my mind right now, I'm sure I've forgotten a ton of things. Now I'll just have to hope this has been read, whether I find out here in this thread or via PM.

Good luck, Dragon Age developers. DAO was a huge success, DA2 not nearly as much, and I pray you can make a huge comeback and rebound back into having the franchise feel great. Cause honestly?

If DA3/DAO2 or whatever's next isn't up to snuff, I'm bailing on the franchise. And you have to know I won't be alone.

Lets work together to make sure that doesn't happen.


How did you contain so much awesome in one post? Your entire post is probably the most amazing analysis of DAII that I've ever read, without bashing on DAII that much. I agree whole-hearitidly to what you have said.


I'm not gonna lie, this has now got to my head.

#884
GeneralArrow

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PresidentCowboy wrote...

GeneralArrow wrote...

hunterxx1xx wrote...

hunterxx1xx wrote...

If DA3 comes out with a day 1 dlc I will not be buying it.


Sorry to hear about this. To be clear, is this specific to not wanting to purchase the Day 1 DLC or the product offering it?

This is specifically because for one, day 1 dlc shouldn't even exist. It should already be on the game. Second reason, although its good to get people to buy the game when you advertise, "free dlc with pre-order of the game", the gamers who want to read reviews of the game first can't get this free content. 





This is an excellent, point I didn't even consider people who actually read reviews. He is right, Day one DLC is a deal breaker for many.


The worst part about day one DLC for me is, when I get a game I don't want to spend hours installing the discs, downloading content and typing in codes before playing. I mean when ME3 arrived I was giddy with excitement but it took like two hours until I had everything ready to play...

Well it wouldn't be a problem if Origin wasn't a POS program. Steam does it well, the install is almost instant.

#885
Kavatica

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warpiggg wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mark Darrah wrote...

We will try to bring some closure to Hawke's story but likely not in a playable form. Originally we had planned to do an expansion pack but had to stop to focus on what we are working on now.


I doubt you can bring any type of decent resolution to Hawke in anything that's not a playable form, simply because the people that enjoyed Hawke would say "My Hawke wouldn't have done that" and the like.

You've only got a few options IMO: Keep working on an expansion or kill Hawke. Otherwise, it seems like peoples' Hawkes will be tampered with.

The latter option isn't one that people would like either methinks, and my faith in the former being of any decent quality is fairly low.


I agree - Kill Hawke. Show the funeral in the opening scenes of the next game, just a coffin on a pyre, and the old companions gathered around (except for Bethany/Carver since they change to match custom-Hawkes, & they'd be away on Circle/Templar/Warden business). This satisfies the need for closure, and brings back some characters from DA2 that people seem to really want around. 

... Anyway, back to dreaming I was lead writer of my own fantasy game saga...:wizard:



I think that would break my heart a little bit. I'd rather think my Hawke was off running around with her LI and go with the "disappeared into thin air" theory than see her in a coffin. Unless I chose to put here there - a la the Warden. Don't really want that choice taken away from me.

Modifié par Kavatica, 19 mars 2012 - 11:53 .


#886
Demx

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I loved reading the epilogue outcomes in Origins and Awakening. It showed the future outcomes of the decisions I made throughout the game. In DA2 we simply got letters about how some people were doing in the present to make the game appear as though you were affecting the world dynamically. I pretty much didn't care if the money I gave the child helped him start a farm. I was too busy doing all the other quests at the time. Epilogue outcomes are great because you can see what happens to them in the distant future and you are not busy trying to complete all the other quests in your log to check your mail.

#887
LPPrince

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Anyway, I don't think it needs to be said, but-

NO. MULTIPLAYER. OR. CO-OP.

Again, it didn't need to be said, but there it is.

#888
Guest_PresidentCowboy_*

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GeneralArrow wrote...

Well it wouldn't be a problem if Origin wasn't a POS program. Steam does it well, the install is almost instant.


Filthy console peasant here.

#889
warpiggg

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Kavatica wrote...

warpiggg wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mark Darrah wrote...

We will try to bring some closure to Hawke's story but likely not in a playable form. Originally we had planned to do an expansion pack but had to stop to focus on what we are working on now.


I doubt you can bring any type of decent resolution to Hawke in anything that's not a playable form, simply because the people that enjoyed Hawke would say "My Hawke wouldn't have done that" and the like.

You've only got a few options IMO: Keep working on an expansion or kill Hawke. Otherwise, it seems like peoples' Hawkes will be tampered with.

The latter option isn't one that people would like either methinks, and my faith in the former being of any decent quality is fairly low.


I agree - Kill Hawke. Show the funeral in the opening scenes of the next game, just a coffin on a pyre, and the old companions gathered around (except for Bethany/Carver since they change to match custom-Hawkes, & they'd be away on Circle/Templar/Warden business). This satisfies the need for closure, and brings back some characters from DA2 that people seem to really want around. 

... Anyway, back to dreaming I was lead writer of my own fantasy game saga...:wizard:



I think that would break my heart a little bit. I'd rather think my Hawke was off running around with her LI and go with the "disappeared into thin air" theory than see her in a coffin.


It'd definitely be hearbreaking but I think it's the only way to satisfy all parties. I don't want my Hawke to die either (she's gone to submit to the Qun instead) but it's an ending/beginning I could accept. I think. We'd have to see. I might cry. 

#890
RazorrX

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Mark Darrah wrote...

To make sure I get your concerns:
1. More customization (Let's me change follower armor. More equipment upgrades)
2. More traditional fantasy story (Epic enemy, clear villain)
3. More areas and areas variety
4. More control over my story.

Does that capture it?


Since I replied about most of this already I wanted to touch on #2.

I do not really mind if it is not an Epic Enemy and in fact think that if it were possible, having a more convoluted plot would be rather cool.  Like say you could end up backing someone who *seemed* to be the best choice/good guy but ended up actually being the choice that brought the most ruin to other things.  

If the story is good I am happy being a guard in a caravan, the guy that swept floors for an inn that got drug into something over his head due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc.  

You guys make awesome stories, I just want to feel that my character actually has impact in the world (as opposed to DA2).  A more morally ambiguous tale is totally cool with me, heck it is even something I would love to have. 

As far as enemies go, as long as there is not the sudden 'god' at the end, but a villan that we can look back and see where the hints were, etc. I am good with never knowing who I would end up fighting until the end.  How cool would it be if one of your companions was actually either the master mind or his number 1 (again as long as when you look back you can *see* that this was going on).

#891
Kwanzaabot

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So I guess the producers commenting on abandoning DA2 in favour of the next game means there'll be an (official) DA3 announcement sometime in the next few months, and the game itself shortly after that.

RUSHING DA 2 WAS BAD. DON'T DO IT AGAIN.

#892
Kavatica

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warpiggg wrote...

It'd definitely be hearbreaking but I think it's the only way to satisfy all parties.


I don't think there is a way to satisfy all parties. Someone is always going to be upset. I think the BioWare forums are pretty much proof of this.

#893
Dave of Canada

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Brockololly wrote...

Something akin to the RW in a player driven RPG would likely not sit well with people, I imagine. Thats more like tragedy, not bittersweet and tragedy is pretty much the lack of any kind of agency or choice.


They're more like different thought processes mixed together horribly without me noticing. Something akin to the RW in the DA universe would be awesome provided they were choices and consequences that lead up to that point, rather than some event which happens without the player having any say in it.

Should such a scene occur, it would most likely infuriate the player and it would be sweet should they even achieve the vengeance they've been longing for.

Though you're right about consequences, I'm remaining hopeful. At least  for a little longer.

#894
YohkoOhno

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LPPrince wrote...

Anyway, I don't think it needs to be said, but-

NO. MULTIPLAYER. OR. CO-OP.

Again, it didn't need to be said, but there it is.


And yet, a lot of people were afraid of ME3 having multiplayer, and it turned out to be really really good.

I can see them actually creating something that is akin to that, seperate but related to the narrative.  If you are in the middle of a war, while you have the single-player campaign, allow a multi-player combat game to take place in the setting but with a different narrative.

I hate to rule out anything--sometimes the best creations are what other don't even think of.

#895
Satyricon331

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@Mark Darrah - thanks for the up-front statements.

~~~~
I've already said my piece about DA2 many times, so besides those things one thing I'd like to see in DA3 that I don't see mentioned all that often is deeper combat mechanics.  I don't just mean more tactical battles - I'd like to see more nuanced rulesets and more elaborate talent/spell trees.  For me at least, tactics are more rewarding when they're the fruit of a gamewide-strategy I've been pursuing.  (So in part I'd like to have the ruleset be more transparent; I need to know the numbers a la the Detailed Tooltips mod to DAO).  DA2 increased nonlinearity (though less than it looked like since the apparently nonlinear tree structure didn't convey all the prerequisites) but also had a... more penned-in feel?  I'm not sure how to put it - it was just too clear how finite the number of "good builds" there were, since the individual trees tended to build on themselves and mixing-and-matching could quickly become suboptimal.  I think you took "nonlinearity" to mean a very structured nonlinearity - trees with well-defined forks in the road - when it might have been better to have nonlinear be more unstructured.  


~~~~

Blastback wrote...
Personally, I'd like the player to be able to earn a happier ending, but it should only be if you make exactly the right choices.  Like with ME2's Suicide Mission, where almost no one was able to get the entire crew to survive without using a guide. 


Personally, I wouldn't be such a fan of that.  I don't want to have to metagame to have everything work out.  I prefer it when the writers write their stories and scenarios in a way that's friendlier to roleplaying.  

#896
Mysticsuns

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I personaly love both DAO and DA2. Even after Skyrim came out I continued playing them both. I hope you keep up what you've got going because both games were very good. I was a little sad that I couldn't be an elf in DA2 but the combat style was so much more entertaining. I think Archery could have a little more flare, but I love archers. I like that (almost) all the characters can be romanced. I just hope the tale gets better and better! What country/province are we off to next? How are the missing champions connected(even if you died in DAO)?

By far my favorite thing about Bio Ware is the dialogue! Keep up the witty dialogue!!Posted Image

Thanks for the awesome games and don't mind the trolls. (They're everywhere)

#897
Kavatica

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RazorrX wrote...

As far as enemies go, as long as there is not the sudden 'god' at the end, but a villan that we can look back and see where the hints were, etc. I am good with never knowing who I would end up fighting until the end.  How cool would it be if one of your companions was actually either the master mind or his number 1 (again as long as when you look back you can *see* that this was going on).


This kind of reminds me of what they did with Isabela in DA2. I for one, did not see that coming on my first playthrough (didn't bring her with me to see the Qun in Act 1 and apparently missed a lot of key party banter). But when I played it again I saw all the clues I missed the first time around.

#898
chesschamp

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All I ever saw visiting this forum was a bunch of whiners who hated Dragon Age 2 because it wasn't a carbon copy of Origins.  I loved Origins, and I loved 2.  I have all the achievements in both of them, because I felt it was worth exploring everything in them and overtly stating my taste by flaunting the 100%, and I'm sad that the game is over.  It's a great game, despite what some of your community apparently wants you to think.  Make DA3 the best game ever!  I'm still looking forward to it, despite that I feel like this is a pretty heavy-handed betrayal.  I wasn't done with Hawke, and somehow, I don't think you were either.  I'm sorry that the crybabies won, but I nonetheless wish you the best.  Keep up the good work, Bioware.

#899
Circle_Mage

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Thank you for showing interest in the thoughts and feelings of the DA fans. There are a few things I would like to see in DA3:

-the return of playable races: dwaves, elves, perhaps even qunari
-the return of origins which then play into the overall story
-a return to the visual style of elves in DAO
-dwarven females! It seemed a great omission that there was not even one dwarven female in all of Kirkwall whereas in DAO there were dwarven women everywhere
-please no more bouncing breasts and mincing runs for female characters. It seemed very cheap and made it difficult for me to take female Hawke seriously, whereas my female warden was still very feminine while retaining a dignified appearance in-game.
-the return of Circle mages. I know that this is a lot to ask considering the events of DA2 and Asunder, but the mage origin is my favorite and I feel that we only just got to experience that facet of life in Thedas before it was ripped away. I fear that it's all apostates from here on out, but if level-headed Circle mages can appear in future games, perhaps even as playable characters, I would be ecstatic.
-more interaction with the party. In DAO, my warden could speak to her companions whenever she wanted and not simply when it was quest-related, as in DA2. I want that interaction back.
-Please don't bring back love interests from Origins just to allow a new protagonist to romance them. Specifically, the issue with Zevran's bugged appearance in DA2. The sight of my warden's husband wandering off into the shubbery with Hawke, or Isabela, was disheartening to say the least. Please either don't include situations like this in future games, or make certain that imported saves trigger the correct dialogue.
-more exploration of dwarven cities, such as Kal Sharok. I don't want to simply loot dwarven ruins, I want to explore the culture. I'd also love to see more of elven culture.

That's about all I can think of right now and I know it's a lot of pie in the sky stuff. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the fans. Perhaps some of our requests and advice will show up in DA3.

#900
warpiggg

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Kavatica wrote...

warpiggg wrote...

It'd definitely be hearbreaking but I think it's the only way to satisfy all parties.


I don't think there is a way to satisfy all parties. Someone is always going to be upset. I think the BioWare forums are pretty much proof of this.


Actually, you're 100% right there. :bandit: