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Mark Darrah on the conclusion of Dragon Age II


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#1201
Jman5

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Mike Laidlaw wrote...

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

I guess we're not going to win with the silent protagonist, but can we still see the return of the text wall? Save the text wheel for Mass Effect, please...

As I said many times, I hate "Hello" being." Hello there! I want set you on fire!"


Deeper dig: is the issue that you didn't know what you'd say, or that you did or said something unexpected?

I'll admit that I'm biased; I don't like reading a choice and then hearing the exact same thing read aloud to me. However, I can absolutely agree with concerns about being blindsided as per your example above.


In general, I don't like to be blind sided by a choice that is somewhat vague. My most memorable example was from Mass Effect 1.

I was young and naiive. I thought Sheppard was just going to calm him down.

However at the same time, I loved the whole Paragon/Renegade buttons from Mass Effect series specfically because you never know what's going to happen. It's kind of like opening a christmas present.

My conclusion I think is to make plenty of those mysterious renegade/paragon surprises in the game, but just make sure people know what they are getting into when they click it. Morality plays a big role in both ME and DA. At the very least try to be clear in the dialogue wheel that X is the jerk route and Y is the nice guy route.

One more thing while we're on the topic. Can you put some major effort into making those "paragon" choices a lot more awesome? The good guy choices often come off as kind of white-knight snoozefest. The renegade route is usually a lot more fun because morality be damned. How about you give the good guys something to clap their hands and chuckle about?

Modifié par Jman5, 20 mars 2012 - 04:08 .


#1202
Guest_FemaleMageFan_*

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Just because the dev's do not accept every input that the people throw around does not mean they are not listening.... Just saying

#1203
Firky

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

This, no offense Mike but after how awful DA2 was to alot of us, I'm actually a little surprised that you're project lead again.


How is that "no offense?"

But, I popped in because I've been ruminating on this, today.

Problems with the RPG genre. Are they real or perceived? Do they need to be solved? Can they be solved? Are they solved looking outwards (to other genres) or inwards? 

I can understand design decisions like fixed armour, voiced protagonist, stealth if they are framed as design decisions, rather than problems. Stuff that works together to make a consistent whole, like if everyone is voiced, Hawke should be voiced. I'd prefer Hawke wasn't voiced, but the reasons for keeping a non-voiced protagonist around can be addressed in other ways.

I'd love to see a DA3 that is neither solving old problems nor creating new ones. It would have its own internal consistency/logic.

#1204
Darji

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Mike Laidlaw wrote...

hunterxx1xx wrote...
I have to agree with eyeofastorm. Seems like Bioware doesn't really care about our input. We say what we'd like to see and they respond with their mind made up already pushing our ideas aside. Majority of the people on here agree we would like to see more DA:O and we all know that's not going to happen. As Bioware will not "go back 180 degrees" even though that's exactly what they should do if they want to have a successful game. I mean hello? DA:O was a bigger success than DA2. Continue to do what you prefer then and see how many people purchase DA3. 


Guys, if anything I've said is construed as "pushing aside" your ideas, I absolutely apologize. The things I listed out are decisions that we've reached so far, and had already communicated previously, I simply wanted to reiterate them so that we could focus on things that are still very open to feedback (which is to say, virtually everything). I'm very happy to see some of the responses around the dialog wheel, for instance, as there may very well be things we can do, and I don't know if we could have gotten to some of the suggestions without first placing the discussion around there being a voiced protagonist.


Honestly why do you guys hold onto this dialogue wheel to begin with? I get it that its streamlining but still you do it in such a bad way especially with the clolors that you will not get many RPG fans to begin with. And if you want to hear the opinions of people who actually like this black, white and sarcastic way than this is not really the place for feedback in the first place.

First of all make sure who you want to get with this game. Who is your main audience. And dont try excuses like everyone. Because this will not work to begin with. There is no way to please everyone and especially not RPG fans and the wider audience. 

#1205
Cantina

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Mike Laidlaw wrote...?

Q: Will I play my... {protagonist here]... again?
A: Again, reiterating something from a few months back, our goal is that new major installments in the DA games will have new protagonists and, generally, tell new stories. It's safe to assume we'll do that for "The Next Thing™", and then we'll evaluate again. Starting over with new characters provides us a chance to tell new stories in the place and time of the Dragon Age, rather than just one character's story.


I disagree with this, one-hundred percent.

The Warden's story was tide up nicely and I felt a sense of closure. With Hawke's story it ended on a cliff hanger and left me with no closure at all and numerous questions. You developers can write up a story/explination about what happened after, but it does not feel closed still, it feels more like a force sense of ending on a story that just started.

There are people (like me) who do not mind playing the same character from game to game. It allows you to build your character's life the way you wish.

Having to sit there and write a whole new protagnist takes more work and time then reusing one from a previous game. You do not need to tell a new story for a character to be good or replace them. What makes a good story is the attachment to the character and choosing the path for their future or being surprised about the future.

You honestly think successful books out there would be as successful if they replaced the main character from book to book-probably not. I really hate companies that feel more inclined to do what is best for them then thinking of the fan base.

IMO, it sounds like Bioware people do not want to continue Hawke's story because, you have some mad crazy scheme behind the scenes and have some crack pot story about what happened after Kirkwall.

I think you all made a mistake in not allowing the DLC content you cancelled not to be released. I find it shocking that Origins had more DLC content and DA2 was not only small, had major issues but had barely any DLC content whatsoever.


I feel highly cheated of not being able to continue my Hawke's story in DLCs or future games. Its so close to going to the "Lord of the Rings" movie, it ends on a cliff hanger and you never get to see what happens next from your own experience.

This news does not bold well from my perspective and right now if DA3 was to come out tommorrow, I doubt I would buy it. I feel like I've been kicked while I'm already down.:crying:

Modifié par Cantina, 20 mars 2012 - 04:06 .


#1206
GeneralArrow

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

GeneralArrow wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

I guess we're not going to win with the silent protagonist, but can we still see the return of the text wall? Save the text wheel for Mass Effect, please...

As I said many times, I hate "Hello" being." Hello there! I want set you on fire!"


Deeper dig: is the issue that you didn't know what you'd say, or that you did or said something unexpected?

I'll admit that I'm biased; I don't like reading a choice and then hearing the exact same thing read aloud to me. However, I can absolutely agree with concerns about being blindsided as per your example above.


I saw you do this a lot during development and post-release of DA2.  You kind of deconstruct what people say are their preferences, spin it a little bit, talk about what you prefer and then what you prefer shows up in the game.  Problem is, these things you prefer, judging by the reaction to DA2, tend not to be the thing that "the majority" of the fans of the  Dragon Age franchise prefer.  And at least as bad as making decisions that split the fanbase or outright turn it against you, you come off as putting your preferences before "ours" and I suspect thats why so much angst was directed against you personally.  I'm telling you how to do your job here... take notes.  Be careful with this.  


This, no offense Mike but after how awful DA2 was to alot of us, I'm actually a little surprised that you're project lead again.

I will defend Mike on this one. Dragon Age 2 was a fine game.  It might not have been perfect but if you looked at it's metacritic score it's right around 80's which is a good game. 

and you don't get to say no offense mike and say something completly offensive. It's hypocritical.


Oh yeah it was awesome if you like a disjointed story, recycled areas, and  press x for awesomeness. Also Metacritic? really? lol

I've been a Bioware supporter since BG1, DA2 is flat out the worse title I have played from them over the years. I'd almost go so far as to say they peaked with BG2 and it's been a slow downward trot since.

Sighting how you've been a Bioware supporter since BG1 yet slamming the developers shows how good a fan you are. I know :wizard:.   

I've been a fan of Bioware since BG1 as well and think DA2 although not a great game is certainly not the worst game out there. Have constructive criticism but not down right nastyness.

#1207
Maverick827

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As far as story is concerned, I feel like I'd like more of DA2 than DAO. Ideally, I'd like an RPG that felt like a casually-paced episodic television show with an over-arching main narrative above the "episodes." I have no idea if this would be feasible or if anyone else would agree, I just know in DAO I always felt pressured to keep moving.

#1208
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Realmzmaster wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I think there are some people who are dreaming, come back to us. There won't be another DAO. The only thing we can hope is that DA3 won't be exactly or too close to DA2, something new.


DA2 was Bioware trying something new, and look how that turned out.

I think that's why a lot of us are hoping they go back to DAO and use that as the framework for the next installment.


I not hoping that Bioware will go back to something like DAO. I prefer going back to something like BG but with the improvements I like in DA2 (voiced protagonist, faster combat, better skill trees IMHO).

This person knows

#1209
Dmoney_69

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Is there going to be a dragon age 3

#1210
Rorschachinstein

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eyesofastorm wrote...

Rorschachinstein wrote...

180 degrees would eliminate everything DAII did right. As much as the hate seems to spread, DAII was a good game flaws or not. The only thing that killed sales was bad word of mouth.


Bad word of mouth is a direct result of a game that people didn't like... because it wasn't good.  This is day 1 stuff here.



I don't much like, and probably outright hate My little pony friendship is magic. But I certainly wouldn't go around badmouthing as a bad show. The often outcome of people not being interested in a game is to not buy it. Which is shame, since DAII was enjoyable as I looked past the flaws and looked at the additions.

Modifié par Rorschachinstein, 20 mars 2012 - 04:06 .


#1211
eyesofastorm

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Firky wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

This, no offense Mike but after how awful DA2 was to alot of us, I'm actually a little surprised that you're project lead again.


How is that "no offense?"


Because a professional needs to be able to separte his/her personal self from his professional self to be able to take criticisms on his/her work without those criticisms destroying him/her as a person.  It's like... a professional thing.  

#1212
starbuck2907

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I posted a long post a while back, but I'll try to summarize it succinctly in this one.

Dragon Age was popular BECAUSE it was a game with depth, complexity, and strategic combat.
Dragon Age 2 tried to simplify that formula, but in doing so, it went against everything that made the first game popular. For Dragon Age 3, bring back the complexity, the slower style combat (in that it requires more thought and less button mashing), and depth.

Again, people liked Dragon Age because of it's complexity. It might take a game or two for the series to grow in popularity, but Bethesda slowly built a blockbuster series with The Elder Scrolls by keeping the complexity and only making minor changes.

The simplification of Mass Effect in Mass Effect 2 was fine because so far as RPG's go, Mass Effect was not nearly as hardcore as Dragon Age. Simplifying the combat and other elements of Dragon Age really backfired in Dragon Age 2 because they went against the very things that the fans of hardcore rpgs love - complexity, depth, and tons of choices that matter.

Basically, for Dragon Age 3, bring back Dragon Age: Origins, but with a smoother running game engine and better graphics. Dragon Age 2 was an ok game, but based on the feedback, it's obvious that people prefer the precedent set by the first game, which is hardcore rpg with tons of loot, item management, options, dialogue, complexity, and choices that matter.

Embrace the complexity and gameplay precedents set by the first game. Refine them rather than throw them out the window. Innovation is cool, but wait for the franchise to get tired or stale before making huge changes.

Much respect, I love Bioware games and enjoyed Dragon Age 2, but I still prefer the first one.

Modifié par starbuck2907, 20 mars 2012 - 04:13 .


#1213
Rorschachinstein

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Darji wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

hunterxx1xx wrote...
I have to agree with eyeofastorm. Seems like Bioware doesn't really care about our input. We say what we'd like to see and they respond with their mind made up already pushing our ideas aside. Majority of the people on here agree we would like to see more DA:O and we all know that's not going to happen. As Bioware will not "go back 180 degrees" even though that's exactly what they should do if they want to have a successful game. I mean hello? DA:O was a bigger success than DA2. Continue to do what you prefer then and see how many people purchase DA3. 


Guys, if anything I've said is construed as "pushing aside" your ideas, I absolutely apologize. The things I listed out are decisions that we've reached so far, and had already communicated previously, I simply wanted to reiterate them so that we could focus on things that are still very open to feedback (which is to say, virtually everything). I'm very happy to see some of the responses around the dialog wheel, for instance, as there may very well be things we can do, and I don't know if we could have gotten to some of the suggestions without first placing the discussion around there being a voiced protagonist.


Honestly why do you guys hold onto this dialogue wheel to begin with? I get it that its streamlining but still you do it in such a bad way especially with the clolors that you will not get many RPG fans to begin with. And if you want to hear the opinions of people who actually like this black, white and sarcastic way than this is not really the place for feedback in the first place.

First of all make sure who you want to get with this game. Who is your main audience. And dont try excuses like everyone. Because this will not work to begin with. There is no way to please everyone and especially not RPG fans and the wider audience. 


Because people like say me. Mass Effect, Skyrim fantatics, who I dunno.............find the dialogue wheel a good addition if done right

#1214
bucketOFme

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I feel like my Hawke was for...basically nothing in a way but then I see Hawke's importance in setting up the story, I just wish Hawke had a bit more story to run with. I looked forward to a complete satisfying ending with my Hawke and Fenris...OH WELL, good run. Hopefully Hawke is somewhere in Antiva with Fenris, drinking wine and being pampered.

I want DA3 to have deeper relationships in a way..like I felt that Origins had a deeper connection with the characters (which I really favored over the way ME's relationships) I liked how I could talk to my party members whenever and could ask them questions and progress a relationship at one's own pace instead of going in time with the game and having to wait...and wait...until the last bit of the game til you declare your emotions.

More control over the story.

The combat in DA2 was satisfactory for my tastes.

Customization for party members armor would be nice.

Multiple origins and races would be nice.

Of course the bigger map has been announced (yes? offically? ok) yay

Seeing old friends and MORE LORE. I like lore :3 the old gods are fascinating....

#1215
Rorschachinstein

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starbuck2907 wrote...

I posted a long post a while back, but I'll try to summarize it succinctly in this one.

Dragon Age was popular BECAUSE it was a game with depth, complexity, and strategic combat.
Dragon Age 2 tried to simplify that formula, but in doing so, it went against everything that made the first game popular. For Dragon Age 3, bring back the complexity, the slower style combat, and depth.

Again, people liked Dragon Age because of it's complexity. It might take a game or two for the series to grow in popularity, but Bethesda slowly built a blockbuster series with The Elder Scrolls by keeping the complexity and only making minor changes.

The simplification of Mass Effect in Mass Effect 2 was fine because so far as RPG's go, Mass Effect was not nearly as hardcore as Dragon Age. Simplifying the combat and other elements of Dragon Age really backfired in Dragon Age 2 because they went against the very things that the fans of hardcore rpgs love - complexity, depth, and tons of choices that matter.

Basically, for Dragon Age 3, bring back Dragon Age: Origins, but with a smoother running game engine and better graphics. Dragon Age 2 was an ok game, but based on the feedback, it's obvious that people prefer the precedent set by the first game, which is hardcore rpg with tons of loot, item management, options, dialogue, complexity, and choices that matter.

Embrace the complexity and gameplay precedents set by the first game. Refine them rather than throw them out the window. Innovation is cool, but wait for the franchise to get tired or stale before making huge changes.

Much respect, I love Bioware games and enjoyed Dragon Age 2, but I still prefer the first one.



You best be trolling

#1216
Guest_Guest12345_*

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I didn't dislike the dialog icons as much as I thought I would, but in general, I prefer to have as minimal of an interface as possible. I would much rather see the icons replaced with a color based rubric, similar to ME.

Also, dialog interrupts for DA3 please!

This last part might ruffle some feathers, but one of my favorite mechanics of SWTOR is the multiplayer interactive dialog. This is absolutely something that Bioware is doing that no other developer on the planet can do. Bioware is ahead of everyone else in this regard, I would even go as far as saying multiplayer interactive dialog games would be their own sub-genre of RPG. With that said, I would love for nothing more than for DA3 to be designed as one large flash point, where all the content can be experienced solo with npc companions, or in the company of 1-3 other people. Much like SWTOR, npc companions can effectively fill any role and are interchangeable with players.
The reason I'd like to see this is because some of my favorite moments so far in SWTOR have been laughing and joking around with my friends in flashpoints, fighting over dialog choice dicerolls and shushing each other during important dialog. It is a very fun experience, which I have never seen anywhere else.

Modifié par scyphozoa, 20 mars 2012 - 04:10 .


#1217
Darji

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Rorschachinstein wrote...

Darji wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

hunterxx1xx wrote...
I have to agree with eyeofastorm. Seems like Bioware doesn't really care about our input. We say what we'd like to see and they respond with their mind made up already pushing our ideas aside. Majority of the people on here agree we would like to see more DA:O and we all know that's not going to happen. As Bioware will not "go back 180 degrees" even though that's exactly what they should do if they want to have a successful game. I mean hello? DA:O was a bigger success than DA2. Continue to do what you prefer then and see how many people purchase DA3. 


Guys, if anything I've said is construed as "pushing aside" your ideas, I absolutely apologize. The things I listed out are decisions that we've reached so far, and had already communicated previously, I simply wanted to reiterate them so that we could focus on things that are still very open to feedback (which is to say, virtually everything). I'm very happy to see some of the responses around the dialog wheel, for instance, as there may very well be things we can do, and I don't know if we could have gotten to some of the suggestions without first placing the discussion around there being a voiced protagonist.


Honestly why do you guys hold onto this dialogue wheel to begin with? I get it that its streamlining but still you do it in such a bad way especially with the clolors that you will not get many RPG fans to begin with. And if you want to hear the opinions of people who actually like this black, white and sarcastic way than this is not really the place for feedback in the first place.

First of all make sure who you want to get with this game. Who is your main audience. And dont try excuses like everyone. Because this will not work to begin with. There is no way to please everyone and especially not RPG fans and the wider audience. 


Because people like say me. Mass Effect, Skyrim fantatics, who I dunno.............find the dialogue wheel a good addition if done right

First of all Mass effect is no RPG..... Even Bioware said it is a rpg shooter so a shooter with RPG elements. Secondly. They never ever did it right. Again if they go for a ME game its totally fine if they go for a RPG however it is not going to work.

And no he is not trolling. Origins was so popular becasue they were remembered of Baldurs Gate games.

Modifié par Darji, 20 mars 2012 - 04:10 .


#1218
craigdolphin

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Mark,

that's interesting news; even though I'm about done with Bioware after the DA2 experience, with the reported issues with ME3 endings, all-but forcing MP down SP-throats in ME3, and the mandatory Origin client requirement without the ability to opt-out of data sharing by the client.

Still, I respect your willingness to engage with the fans still here as I'm aware that you must be one of the ones who dictated the changed top-level design vision that led to DA2. Personally, I hope that DA2 design vision is amended to reduce the importance of cinematography for DA3 so that it is more in balance with other design goals such as player agency and immersion. Far too much was sacrificed on that altar in DA2 IMO.

As for feedback....here's what DA means to me: historical 'realism' mixed with heroic dark fantasy and a dash of humor.

Things in your marketing that got me excited about DAO: Dark, mature fantasy. Spiritual successor to BG. Semi-realistic looking screenshots and artwork. In game footage.

What I loved about previous Bioware games: wonderful characters, meaningful (and sometimes difficult) choices, romances, tactical combat, great humor.

DA2 didn't feel very much like the DA that I fell in love with in Origins.

The cartoonish art style I hated. Particularly the elves and darkspawn retcons were atrocious IMO. The qunari retcon was an exception to that, although why they all looked like clones is a puzzle. Overall, the art style made me feel like DA2 was, visually speaking, a jrpg and not a wrpg at all. I didn't sign up for that.

The over-the-top combat animations destroyed any possible sense of gravitas in combat: apparently gravity and momentum do not work properly in Thedas. :(  The change in the encounter design from few-but-tough enemies in Origins to many-many-many-but-nerfed ememies in DA2 only worsened the sense that the 'threat' level of the enemies was a joke: apparently a 12 year old boy with a head-cold could kill a few darkspawn in DA2! No sense of genuine threat at all. And the waves... *shudder*

Between the art style, encounter design, and combat animations, DA2 felt more like an anime. To me, DA should be more Game of Thrones (with humor) and a lot less like the anime/jrpg vibe I got from DA2.

I also hated the complete lack of player agency with regard to conversations with party members and other NPC's. In real life, I can initiate conversations with friends. And sometimes they initiate them with me. DAO struck a good balance with that. In DA2, I felt as if party members ceased to be 'people' the moment they left their designated 'talking' spot. It destroyed any sense of them people people to me. It also destroyed the illusion of immersion in a 'real' game world by highlighting 'combat' zones being spatially different than 'conversation' zones. That's a horrible way to make me feel the game world is a plausible place. I've never cared less about the party characters in a Bioware game than I did with DA2.

And I'm glad to hear so many others talking about the lost customization options for party members, the reused environments and models, and the non-epic storyline.
I'd also like the 'love' scenes to be less unintentionally funny for a
change. The ones in ME1 should be your guide IMO. It's all been downhill
since then in both franchises. TW2 did a vastly better job too IMO. You are competing against some very talented developers nowadays and increasingly your games are beginning to suffer by comparison where once they led.

The length of the game itself was disappointingly short IMO, although that was a blessing by the end because I had become very unhappy with it.

What did DA2 do well?

The pace of combat itself was more reactive on the front end which was ok but an intermediate between the two games would be better. I liked being able to avoid Ogre charges etc. And the friendship/rivalry system was good too...although I did miss gift giving and those little Morrigan approves +5 messages. Don't ask me why.

I liked the voiced protagonist. I think. But I'm not 100% sure.

It's hard for me to judge the voiced part because I disliked Hawke and his story so greatly and I felt very alienated from Hawke, whereas I felt much closer to the Warden. It is possible that the voiced aspect played a role in that. However, there are other factors too: the passive role in the story, the inability to initiate dialog with other characters, the cheesy animations and art style, etc all make it hard for me to feel close to Hawke.

And honestly, I don't mean to be a pill, but that's all I can honestly say that DA2 did well IMO.

If you want to attract back the disillusioned, like myself, you've got some work ahead of you. Honest conversations like this are a good start. Other suggestions would be to quit taking the hardcore fans for granted when you are considering your marketing strategy as you did with DA2 IMO.

Show us the game itself, not just some flashy pre-rendered cinematics from Blur. Show us more than just action sequences. Make us interested in the world situation politically, miliatarily, and personally. Make us interested in the characters we'll meet before we even buy the game. DAO did this pretty well. Bio's, videos, screenshots, wallpaper etc were all good stuff to whet the appetite leading up to DAO. These were sorely lacking by comparison pre-DA2. Show us other game mechanics too: stealth, theft, looting, how we can interact with the game world, etc. Even DAO was guilty of some stupid marketing (the marilyn manson video for example), but they at least made some effort to engage the fans of older Bioware games. DA2's direction and marketing felt like a huge 'up yours' in our general direction.

I can't comment about the DLC as I have not played it and am not going to pay again for something like DA2. If you want players to evaluate the future direction of the franchise based on DLC, you should make that DLC free or there's little point to it (in terms of winning over angry former fans).

Apologies if this comment is too lacking in tact. I am actually trying to be constructive even if I don't feel inclined to sugar-coat it.

Regardless, I'm glad to see you (Mark) actively taking part in the conversation.

#1219
axl99

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I'd have loved to have seen more DA2 DLC, but at the very least I'm glad you guys are trying to bring Hawke's story to a close.

#1220
eyesofastorm

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Rorschachinstein wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Rorschachinstein wrote...

180 degrees would eliminate everything DAII did right. As much as the hate seems to spread, DAII was a good game flaws or not. The only thing that killed sales was bad word of mouth.


Bad word of mouth is a direct result of a game that people didn't like... because it wasn't good.  This is day 1 stuff here.



I don't much like, and probably outright hate My little pony friendship is magic. But I certainly wouldn't go around badmouthing as a bad show. 


Your example doesn't work here.  Closer to the truth was if like... season 1 of MacGuyver was your favorite show of all time.  Then you tune in for season 2 and you get... My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.  Then you would badmouth it.  I don't badmouth things I don't care at all about either.  DA2 got badmouthed not on its own merits.  If it has stood alone, and even more importantly, had been developed by someone who is not Bioware, I might have bought it, played it, and maybe even enjoyed it a little.  DA2 got badmouthed becaue it stood right next to DA:O.  

#1221
Darji

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eyesofastorm wrote...

Rorschachinstein wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Rorschachinstein wrote...

180 degrees would eliminate everything DAII did right. As much as the hate seems to spread, DAII was a good game flaws or not. The only thing that killed sales was bad word of mouth.


Bad word of mouth is a direct result of a game that people didn't like... because it wasn't good.  This is day 1 stuff here.



I don't much like, and probably outright hate My little pony friendship is magic. But I certainly wouldn't go around badmouthing as a bad show. 


Your example doesn't work here.  Closer to the truth was if like... season 1 of MacGuyver was your favorite show of all time.  Then you tune in for season 2 and you get... My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.  Then you would badmouth it.  I don't badmouth things I don't care at all about either.  DA2 got badmouthed not on its own merits.  If it has stood alone, and even more importantly, had been developed by someone who is not Bioware, I might have bought it, played it, and maybe even enjoyed it a little.  DA2 got badmouthed becaue it stood right next to DA:O.  

Exactly DA2 was hated becasue it was nothing like origins. It was more like a Mass effect game.  People even called it dragon effect.

#1222
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Mike Laidlaw wrote...There's some very good suggestions in this thread, absolutely.

The question is will you actually do something with them. I have just re-read a number of your post release DAII interviews. They all pretty much say the same thing. You dismissing the criticisms as being "over reactive" or miss placed. A whole bunch of defending changes (NPC armor for instance) as a means of dismissing criticism, or saying that fan concerns were unjust because it "wasn't their idea of what the sequel should be".
 
All I get from those interviews is someone who is dismissive and not really interested in admitting mistakes.I expect developers to defend their work (I would be worried if they didn't), but to be almost entirely dismissive of the negative feedback is frankly arrogant and insulting.

Go back to making RPGs. Stop pandering to non RPG fans. Look to the classics you used to make, see the ongoing adoration for them... hell the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition is HUGE new atm. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Dan Tudge leaving was the single worst thing to happen to the franchise. That one loss seemingly allowed for pointless "Streamlining" and player hand holding as well as aiming for the twitch/non RPG gamers. IT also alienated a large percentage of your long time fans (myself included) as evendenced below
http://iforce.co.nz/i/qkvd1mss.d5b.jpg

I have/had enormous respect for BioWare but of late all I see is EA's hand steering the ship.
RPGers love and crave a good RPG experience. There are so few these days. We get maybe one every year or so, but numerous "action RPGs". Please please please go back to the design ethic you had in the BG to KoTOR era. Deep story,  involving plot and NPCs, complex and meaningful interactions, deep customisation/levelling, tactical and robust combat, choice and consequence, a branching narrative, party bonding and conflict, and most importantly ROLE PLAYING.

There was a time that the name BioWare was synonymous with quality RPGs, of late that hasn't been the case. AS much as I love the ME games they are not quality RPGs, and each entry was less than the previous. My fear is that DA will go that route. DA:O excellent, DAII dire (with excellent characters). Stop removing complexity and depth in order to be more "accessible". RPGs like RTS's or even more so Turn Based Strategy games thrive on choice and depth and complexity, but more than any other genre it thrives on freedom of choice and customization.

Sorry if this comes off as a rant its not supposed to. I appreciate your desire for an open dialogue, and it is one I hope you will continue. You have in one move won back a lot of me respect. Thank you sir for that. I do appreciate it very much.

Modifié par Cryocore, 20 mars 2012 - 04:17 .


#1223
GeneralArrow

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Darji wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Rorschachinstein wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Rorschachinstein wrote...

180 degrees would eliminate everything DAII did right. As much as the hate seems to spread, DAII was a good game flaws or not. The only thing that killed sales was bad word of mouth.


Bad word of mouth is a direct result of a game that people didn't like... because it wasn't good.  This is day 1 stuff here.



I don't much like, and probably outright hate My little pony friendship is magic. But I certainly wouldn't go around badmouthing as a bad show. 


Your example doesn't work here.  Closer to the truth was if like... season 1 of MacGuyver was your favorite show of all time.  Then you tune in for season 2 and you get... My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.  Then you would badmouth it.  I don't badmouth things I don't care at all about either.  DA2 got badmouthed not on its own merits.  If it has stood alone, and even more importantly, had been developed by someone who is not Bioware, I might have bought it, played it, and maybe even enjoyed it a little.  DA2 got badmouthed becaue it stood right next to DA:O.  

Exactly DA2 was hated becasue it was nothing like origins. It was more like a Mass effect game.  People even called it dragon effect.

Yup, and even though I am fine with DA2 I will say it's very much like Mass Effect. Bioware, and Mike please give Dragon Age it's own identity.

Modifié par GeneralArrow, 20 mars 2012 - 04:16 .


#1224
RazorrX

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Re: Mass Effect not being a RPG - it is very much an RPG. Yes it is not what I would consider a full bore RPG, but it was an RPG. In fact, if it were not for the ending of ME3 it would be one of my all time favorite games.

Re: DA2. I always thought DA2 should have been called Dragon Age: Kirkwall or some such. I think the 2 made it feel more like a sequel when it was not really. I think that hurt it a lot.

#1225
aldien

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Wait... is Mike Laidlaw related to Marc Laidlaw? I know completely off topic, but I had to ask.

On topic

New to Bioware and DA. Yes, I loved DA2. Forgave its lack of environmental interest for a good story. Loved Skyrim's scenery but disliked its lack of story. Put DA2 characters in Skyrim and you have a winner. Wish Bethesda and Bioware had merged.

I guess if I was going to sum things up. Independent developers that merge with companies like EA are never the same. Many people on here are speaking to the old face of Bioware and not the new face of Bioware EA. I think EA still works on the FIFA and Sims model that made them successful. That doesn't mesh with role playing in my opinion... well not the type of DAO role playing lovers are expecting from DA3.

DA2 had a great storyline and deep characters. The maps grew tiresome, but the story was engaging. I'm very disappointed that the expansion was not completed. I also find it odd that it was mentioned. Kind of cruel or marketing... not sure.

The good old days are gone. Everyone seems to be looking to DA3 to renew their faith in Bioware. I would dare say, that they are looking to DA3 to renew their faith in role playing in general. They want a large environment, like Skyrim (which I doubt will happen on that scale) and a deep storyline. They want to relive the glory days. I guarantee if the characters from DAO are updated for DA3 there will be nonstop complaints, because, in a new engine, they never look the same ;)

I think people expect too much. The face of gaming has changed. You put the amount of dialogue that was in DAO on an xbox and people are going to turn it off. From what I've seen of Bioware fans they are spoiled. Not many developers come onto a forum and actually respond to posts. Actually, I can't recall any other developer doing that unless it was necessary.

In summary. There is a lot to be said for independent gaming companies. I hope EA gives these developers some slack to work their magic. We'll see.