192 réponses à ce sujet

[Farbautisonn]

Linus108 wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Linus108 wrote...

The whole tragic argument is nonsense.

What someone sacrifices himself for either validates or invalidates the sacrifice. People aren't upset because Shepard sacrificed himself in the end. They are mad at what he/she sacrificed himself for. 

-You might not know it but you made my point. Thanks. 

Was actually agreeing with you. Just adding on to what you said. 

I guess I should have made my post more clear. I was just saying that you're right, the tragic ending we got was awful. And people pointing towards it being tragic, therefore good are just missing the point. 

Im sorry and I stand corrected.

[Mr Indivisible]

For a game like Saints Row, no, the ending does not ruin the game.

For a story driven epic, yes the ending ruins the game, it impacts everything that came before it. In the case of Mass Effect 3, it nullifies everything you did, you might as well just load at the catalyst and play from there.

[_symphony]

Maybe you should take a break from the forums until BioWare decides what to do, because these angry people aren't going go away any time soon.

[paulo_souza_rj]

Yes, the ending is part of the game.

[Traim Eisenblut]

In general: there is no answer. It depends on the story, the ending and the interaction between these two.

In Mass Effect 3 the ending erases every part of the story that happend so far. It intentionally disrupts the connection between the protagonist, the antagonist and the lore of the universe/setting of the fiction completly, by introducing a godlike being that stands above all of it. That is a plot twist that effectivly nullifies every aspect that made the story so intense, no choice of any kind you made throughout the game, no result your efforts have brought so far, matters in the end.
And worse: even the gamemechanics change radically and force you to make a descision between 3 choices, each of them equally dumb and not acceptable. This reflects on the game in a whole, and it does so very poorly.

So an ending that does not conclude a story, but relieve it of all substance via a Deus Ex Machina plottwist DOES decide how good a game is. Not good at all.

[Kilshrek]

It determines how you feel after finishing it. Surely it affects how good a game is. A ludicrous question, it affects the overall experience, it doesn't necessarily make a game bad, but it sure does make you wonder if it's time well spent playing the game.

If you were having soup, and then found a beetle at the bottom of it, would you not feel quite disgusted by the experience, though your soup may have been excellent before the discovery? Not a perfect analogy, but one that works within the question I guess.

[Nevaeh15]

If this were... Asteroids... then no... Asteroids is a game not accompanied by any story at all. Mass Effect is heavily enriched by story. So much so that you can't have the game without the story. The story is what makes it Mass Effect.
Resolution is only one part of the 5 part dramatic structure. But it's arguably the most important. In Mass Effect 3 there is no... Dénouement if you will. We don't get a release of tension or anxiety... No closure for the player... Just bad writing...

And yes... that can ruin a game.

[Wiggs Magee]

Seeing as how it is the last thing you experience in this game and this series it does color your opinion of the entire game. I've tried looking at the game as whole and thankfully i still enjoy it but the ending just stops it reaching its highest potential. And knowing that the ending will be (atleast for me) a disappointment means that i have little interest of replaying it which has always been one of the things i enjoyed doing in previous ME games

[yeldarbnotned]

Yes, a bad ending can ruin a movie. It can ruin a book. It can ruin a game.

[Salis777]

For 120 hour story based epic game, of course. Having no epilogue (think DA:O) or any kind of logical explanation for what happened absolutely destroys the point of it. Think of bad movie endings, bad TV series endings then factor in that you're actively involved and spent FAR more time in this game. I'd say it's rather obvious really.

[_Mr vas normandy]

Rannoch was blown up by Mass Relays. Shepard blew up Mass Relays. Catalyst Child made Shepard do it. BioWare created Catalyst Child. Mr vas Normandy hunts BioWare.

[Rudy Lis]

Generally I'm not "ending" guy, I'm "process" guy (no sex jokes, please:D). Of course it's nice to know that Jaheira and Charname lived happily ever after, but I can accept practically any ending (or lack thereof), if "the long and winding road" to that ending was interesting and rewarding. Witcher saga (books) for example. Or many historical or "based on historical" books, like Remarque's. Of course Remarque and many other authors wrote in quite specific genre, but still.

Anyway, ME3 ending, mostly after meeting with TIM is so... Well, my vocabulary is empty here and my dictionaries couldn't help me either. Strange? Absurd? Don't know, like I said, I have no proper words to discribe it.

To be honest, after I beat game, I have strong feeling that those endings were done on purpose. My three versions are:
1. Red (no pun intended) herring. Distraction. Not sure for what, though. My two cents - endings so bad so public concentrates on them, giving overall reviews like "ME3 - ending=flawless". I disagree on that - game have a lot of problems and progressively worse than ME1 and ME2, even without endings. But, with such endings public rage concentrates on them, allowing to ignore (or screen) complains in other departments.
2. Cross of Iron (1977 movie) situation. I heard that during filming that movie authors met budget issues and had no means to film ending they wanted, so they asked Coburn to improvise, thus the "laughing" ending. Not sure that Bioware "required more minerals", but if they didn't have enough time (2 years to tie all story leads for 3 games is definitely not enough), such version IMHO, sounds quite probable. However, I'd prefer to wait year more or see other ending, than to see this. However, if Bioware will follow CD Project way - give us some gigabyte "enhanced edition" patch (free of charge, of course) and correct game to condition it should have, well, I'd wait.
3. There is another movie-related legend - Russian (Soviet) director Leonid Gaidai, while making his The Diamond Arm, to prevent censorship (USSR, remember?) on his movie added scene with nuclear explosion and told censors that they can remove any scene they want, until they leave that nuclear mushroom episode in movie. Barrel roll worked - censors removed nuclear explosion scene, leaving rest of the movie intact.

So yes, ending is part of the product and should be taken into consideration as part of experience. Whether you let it slide or collect it into bottle and use to rearrenge every molecule in author's body - depends on other parts of product.

Bottom line: I do believe that that ending (not "those endings" - I refuse to consider them as "different endings") was done on purpose, to draw our attention away from other aspects of game. Such as uneven story writing - some places deserves "bravo, encore", some "meh, I've seen toilet rolls with better writing" or continuating ignorance of codex, or, or, or...

[Stealth3]

No, but it decides how bad a game is. In this case, it also sets the bar for terrible endings.

[LiquidLogic2020]

A game, no. A story? In some instances yes, it all depends on the story, was it all about the journey or the destination. Mass effect is about the destination, the destination you reach is just awful.

[Lunatic LK47]

azereus2 wrote...

if you spend more than 500 hours ( I have almost 700+ on mass effect 1, 2 and 3 combined ) then yes, the ending is a big part.

Because you are not judging mass effect 3 alone, you are judging the series.

Quoted for the Mother****ing truth. I'm ****ing bitter.

[starscreamerx31]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

azereus2 wrote...

if you spend more than 500 hours ( I have almost 700+ on mass effect 1, 2 and 3 combined ) then yes, the ending is a big part.

Because you are not judging mass effect 3 alone, you are judging the series.

Quoted for the Mother****ing truth. I'm ****ing bitter.

Agree

[shurikenmanta]

It plays a part, but it's not everything.

[Farbautisonn]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Generally I'm not "ending" guy, I'm "process" guy (no sex jokes, please:D). Of course it's nice to know that Jaheira and Charname lived happily ever after, but I can accept practically any ending (or lack thereof), if "the long and winding road" to that ending was interesting and rewarding. Witcher saga (books) for example. Or many historical or "based on historical" books, like Remarque's. Of course Remarque and many other authors wrote in quite specific genre, but still.

Anyway, ME3 ending, mostly after meeting with TIM is so... Well, my vocabulary is empty here and my dictionaries couldn't help me either. Strange? Absurd? Don't know, like I said, I have no proper words to discribe it.

To be honest, after I beat game, I have strong feeling that those endings were done on purpose. My three versions are:
1. Red (no pun intended) herring. Distraction. Not sure for what, though. My two cents - endings so bad so public concentrates on them, giving overall reviews like "ME3 - ending=flawless". I disagree on that - game have a lot of problems and progressively worse than ME1 and ME2, even without endings. But, with such endings public rage concentrates on them, allowing to ignore (or screen) complains in other departments.
2. Cross of Iron (1977 movie) situation. I heard that during filming that movie authors met budget issues and had no means to film ending they wanted, so they asked Coburn to improvise, thus the "laughing" ending. Not sure that Bioware "required more minerals", but if they didn't have enough time (2 years to tie all story leads for 3 games is definitely not enough), such version IMHO, sounds quite probable. However, I'd prefer to wait year more or see other ending, than to see this. However, if Bioware will follow CD Project way - give us some gigabyte "enhanced edition" patch (free of charge, of course) and correct game to condition it should have, well, I'd wait.
3. There is another movie-related legend - Russian (Soviet) director Leonid Gaidai, while making his The Diamond Arm, to prevent censorship (USSR, remember?) on his movie added scene with nuclear explosion and told censors that they can remove any scene they want, until they leave that nuclear mushroom episode in movie. Barrel roll worked - censors removed nuclear explosion scene, leaving rest of the movie intact.

So yes, ending is part of the product and should be taken into consideration as part of experience. Whether you let it slide or collect it into bottle and use to rearrenge every molecule in author's body - depends on other parts of product.

Bottom line: I do believe that that ending (not "those endings" - I refuse to consider them as "different endings") was done on purpose, to draw our attention away from other aspects of game. Such as uneven story writing - some places deserves "bravo, encore", some "meh, I've seen toilet rolls with better writing" or continuating ignorance of codex, or, or, or...

Interesting points... but the problem here seems to me to be more of an issue of "lack of imagination". Im guessing it falls under 1). They likely have "something" they think is "epic" enough to validate an outcry. They did like the "speculation" and "confusion" bit. However its really crap storytelling. You do not leave a trilogy with a "Lost-esque" clifhanger that makes **** all sense.

I dunno... it just seems inept. Like someone snorted too much coke and drank too much single malt one night and decided... "YEAY! This is the ending we want!"

[The Spamming Troll]

TheMakoMaster wrote...

It's like if Madden 2013 turned out to be a rugby match, cause that's an artsy good idea...

itd be like starting a franchise, doing a draft, getting every sweet player you like, the making it to the superbowl, while your up by 137 points with less then a minute left in game.....and then a space form of john madden shows up and says you have three options thatll bow your mind:

1. merge both superbowl teams to create ULTIMATE TEAM #1
2. control the other team but neither team gets to play on offense
3. have the other team die in a bus crash but everyone of your teams mates gets lupis

......john madden showing up at the end might have been equally as unrealistic to me as seeing star child. except wiht the whole indoctro theory ofcorse.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 20 mars 2012 - 04:02 .

[Mr.House]

When it comes to a trilogy yes.

[Wildhide]

Yes, it's the last experience the player/viewer/reader experiences. If the ending is poorly written, nonsensical, doesn't fit the story, or just bad then that's what the reader is going to remember. It's far more stark when the rest of the medium is great.

Then the ending not only stands out more drastically as flawed, but you're left wondering what the writer was thinking and how they could screw it up right at the end. Was the rest of ME3 good? Yes, but that just makes the poor quality of the end all the more obvious.

[Spectre_Shepard]

its certainly a big part of it.

[justlogme]

rabidsmurf wrote...

Yes, it does. It's like eating a delicious bowl of soup, you’re nearly finished, and then you look down only to realize there's a roach at the bottom.

   Good one.

 

[Rudy Lis]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Interesting points... but the problem here seems to me to be more of an issue of "lack of imagination". Im guessing it falls under 1). They likely have "something" they think is "epic" enough to validate an outcry. They did like the "speculation" and "confusion" bit. However its really crap storytelling. You do not leave a trilogy with a "Lost-esque" clifhanger that makes **** all sense.

Don't know for "Lost" - haven't seen it.
Of course there is chance that Bioware simply tired from franchise (like Bungie and Halo) and decided to "kill" it entirely, but I doubt EA allow them to do that, IMHO there is still milk in that cow and even if there is no milt, cow's corpse can be processed - skin for boots, meat for food, bones for glue... You know. And if EA is good for something - it's extracting profits.
Not sure about "lack of imagination" - story in general is a way too uneven. But this uneven story is sort of sign of problems in writing department, thats for sure. Add time limits and we got ourselves what we have now.

Farbautisonn wrote...

I dunno... it just seems inept. Like someone snorted too much coke and drank too much single malt one night and decided... "YEAY! This is the ending we want!"

Well, according to coroner from me LE unit where I served, coke (if we not talking about Coca-cola, which I find strange to snort in first place) will neutralize all effects of alcohol, makes you "fast sobering". Of a sort.

Yes, we really discussed that with my former comrades in arms in regards of ME3 storytelling.

[Farbautisonn]

Rudy Lis wrote...
Don't know for "Lost" - haven't seen it.
Of course there is chance that Bioware simply tired from franchise (like Bungie and Halo) and decided to "kill" it entirely, but I doubt EA allow them to do that, IMHO there is still milk in that cow and even if there is no milt, cow's corpse can be processed - skin for boots, meat for food, bones for glue... You know. And if EA is good for something - it's extracting profits.
Not sure about "lack of imagination" - story in general is a way too uneven. But this uneven story is sort of sign of problems in writing department, thats for sure. Add time limits and we got ourselves what we have now.

-Followed season one. They should have ended it there. I dont think Bioware tired from the franchise. It has plenty of poetential for a spce drama. Thats bucks in the pocket. And I dont think the general writing is that bad. The main storyline writing is however. They have plenty good inspiration to go on. From asimov to Andersen. They could have done way better.. A 10 year old could have done better.

Well, according to coroner from me LE unit where I served, coke (if we not talking about Coca-cola, which I find strange to snort in first place) will neutralize all effects of alcohol, makes you "fast sobering". Of a sort.

Yes, we really discussed that with my former comrades in arms in regards of ME3 storytelling.

-sure. But it reeks of having done very impulsively. And this impulsiveness (read lazy) seems to be what has been the foundation for the ME3 end.