459 réponses à ce sujet

[ergonomalous]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

ergonomalous wrote...

OP:

Could you please create a post detailing what makes the ending so deep and thought provoking? I would really like to understand. I hated the endings and maybe you could put it into perspective for me.

thanks.

I thought I had in my OP, sorry.  I guess the thing I liked most was the state of the galaxy after the ending.  Shepard was defined by the Reaper War, and that ended for me satisfactorily, but what I wasn't expecting was the relay network going bye bye and all the creative thoughts it sparked in me about what the galaxy might look like.  Not many creative works do that to me, so I found the whole experience quite profound.

Fair enough. I am too much of a pessimist to think that any of the solutions are anything but bad. The people on these forums can't agree on something as simple as an ending to a game. I really doubt that all the species stranded in the sol system (if alive) will be able to come to an agreement that appeases everyone. Plus with the leaders of the species scattered all over the place, or dead, I don't see anything but civil war erupting. Nothing about these endings seem triumphant.

[Blarghonk]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

DentedHalo wrote...

in all fairness its very diifcult to argue with someone who just casually says that the galactic community will just need to get to work on building their own relays... you know... as if that was an even remote possibility this side of a century... especially without relays to allow colaboration between star systems!  how can you argue with such logic... seriously...

Seriously, this is simply you wanting a happier ending.  I honestly think the majority of the fan rage here is rooted in this.

then that would be your opinion, wrong, but your opinon and your certainly welcome to think that. But I do see what you're saying, if you ignore things, alot of things, then sure you can consider it a good ending. Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, but that's what I hear.

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...
...

...

Myrmedus wrote...
...

Sorry, Myrmedus, but
well-structured and knowledgeable do not equal "objective".  You guys
are totally welcome to say you didn't like it, but just because you
don't believe there was enough explanation as to why Shepard could
breathe on a part of the Citadel that wasn't the ward arms, or as to why
Joker was attempting to outrun the explosion, doesn't make it
objectively bad.

Sure if, again, you ignore a majority of the issues.

[DentedHalo]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

It doesn't matter how the mass-relays blow up. blowing up is blowing up. There is no way Earth or any other planet near a relay could survive that.

You're just making that up.  You pull statements of fact like that out of your ass, then demand to know why they weren't addressed.

oh please... did you bother reading that before you posted it or did you just take it straight from your room of infinite monkeys and post it... the very fact that we CAN speculate to such a degree IS the problem... you are simply making your argument up in the same way that most of us are... forget cannon, forget established game lore, the game tells us NOTHING to give us even the vaguest hint about the realities of that endings so there is no option but to make it up and you have the cheek to scoff at that poster because it differs from you.

I am genuinely happy that you have managed to be happy with that ending, genuinely, but please do not think to patronise the rest of us here who are not... we didn’t come in here to force you to like the ending, YOU created a thread to show your superior intellect leading you to an understanding of the ending that we plebs had somehow missed! Rant over!

[shamE12]

Guys stop posting in this thread for **** sake.

Modifié par shamE12, 19 mars 2012 - 07:04 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

ergonomalous wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

ergonomalous wrote...

OP:

Could you please create a post detailing what makes the ending so deep and thought provoking? I would really like to understand. I hated the endings and maybe you could put it into perspective for me.

thanks.

I thought I had in my OP, sorry.  I guess the thing I liked most was the state of the galaxy after the ending.  Shepard was defined by the Reaper War, and that ended for me satisfactorily, but what I wasn't expecting was the relay network going bye bye and all the creative thoughts it sparked in me about what the galaxy might look like.  Not many creative works do that to me, so I found the whole experience quite profound.

Fair enough. I am too much of a pessimist to think that any of the solutions are anything but bad. The people on these forums can't agree on something as simple as an ending to a game. I really doubt that all the species stranded in the sol system (if alive) will be able to come to an agreement that appeases everyone. Plus with the leaders of the species scattered all over the place, or dead, I don't see anything but civil war erupting. Nothing about these endings seem triumphant.

From what I know about the legend of Sheperd; they found that spirit of comradery in the end to defy the odds. Why should that idea end with Sheperd?

[Oryonn]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

So from the spoiler group, and watching YouTubes after the game had launched, I knew what the ending was.  About an hour ago I played it for myself, with my one and only Shepard, the one I've had right from the start.

And, wow.  For me, it was beautiful.  Seeing the culmination of the million steps it took the galaxy to get Shepard in the right place with a handgun just blew me away.  I think the trilogy was a stunning piece of work and that Mass 3, including the controversial ending, was easily the best game in the series.  

When it comes to the criticisms, I'm really not seeing them myself.  I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense.  The only problem I see with the narrative is how the crewmembers who were with you in the rush to the Conduit got back to the Normandy (in the event you see that ending).  I wonder if it would have been clearer to have whomever was with you defending the missile launchers to have died holding the line.

I guess what impressed and surprised me the most is how thought-provoking the ending was.  I'm left wondering what galactic society will look like when we make it back out to the stars again.  Anything seems possible, like it did for me right at the beginning of the series, which was an incredibly exciting ending for me personally.  Thank you, BioWare, that was one hell of a ride.

Why does everyone who liked to ending try to seem so deep and understanding? 

[sadako]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

sadako wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

An asteroid that was a converted mining faciltiy would increase the size and yield of the blast signifigantly; and it was only suggested by someone who wasn't certain that any relay explosion would destroy an entire system. Please note that the relay destructions were self-destruct; not a considerable mass increase because of a large asteroid.

Considering that an atomic blast. Most of the damage is due to the shock wave, while the maximum damage at ground zero is substantial, the shock wave is perhaps the most damaging.

Considering the shockwave of the explosion could be seen at the galactic level and enough to push away those huge relay rings (in the FMV)

I'm sure there's minimal damage. SERIOUS.

The galaxy map view was pure artisitc license to show the effect galaxy wide.
http://en.wikipedia....rtistic_license

SPECULATION. familiar much? If they wanted the mass relays to be deactivated, they could just have shown the mass relays losing their cores and shutting down, but no, they had them EXPLODE.

You're just in denial like I was the first 3 minutes after finishing the game.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Oryonn wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

So from the spoiler group, and watching YouTubes after the game had launched, I knew what the ending was.  About an hour ago I played it for myself, with my one and only Shepard, the one I've had right from the start.

And, wow.  For me, it was beautiful.  Seeing the culmination of the million steps it took the galaxy to get Shepard in the right place with a handgun just blew me away.  I think the trilogy was a stunning piece of work and that Mass 3, including the controversial ending, was easily the best game in the series.  

When it comes to the criticisms, I'm really not seeing them myself.  I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense.  The only problem I see with the narrative is how the crewmembers who were with you in the rush to the Conduit got back to the Normandy (in the event you see that ending).  I wonder if it would have been clearer to have whomever was with you defending the missile launchers to have died holding the line.

I guess what impressed and surprised me the most is how thought-provoking the ending was.  I'm left wondering what galactic society will look like when we make it back out to the stars again.  Anything seems possible, like it did for me right at the beginning of the series, which was an incredibly exciting ending for me personally.  Thank you, BioWare, that was one hell of a ride.

Why does everyone who liked to ending try to seem so deep and understanding? 

The same reason why people who arbitrarily hate it are over-simplifying and claiming it's hollow?

[Genera1Nemesis]

sadako wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

sadako wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

An asteroid that was a converted mining faciltiy would increase the size and yield of the blast signifigantly; and it was only suggested by someone who wasn't certain that any relay explosion would destroy an entire system. Please note that the relay destructions were self-destruct; not a considerable mass increase because of a large asteroid.

Considering that an atomic blast. Most of the damage is due to the shock wave, while the maximum damage at ground zero is substantial, the shock wave is perhaps the most damaging.

Considering the shockwave of the explosion could be seen at the galactic level and enough to push away those huge relay rings (in the FMV)

I'm sure there's minimal damage. SERIOUS.

The galaxy map view was pure artisitc license to show the effect galaxy wide.
http://en.wikipedia....rtistic_license

SPECULATION. familiar much? If they wanted the mass relays to be deactivated, they could just have shown the mass relays losing their cores and shutting down, but no, they had them EXPLODE.

You're just in denial like I was the first 3 minutes after finishing the game.

Yep, you're right. You know me personally and we've had a long discussion about our personal beliefs and how we view stories that have nothing to do with this game.  I guess there is just no room for interpretation in games; so in that the fans themselves ensure it never evolves beyond "boss fight' and 'high score".

You win, obviously. I didn't realize we were competing though, so can I call mulligan?

[Oryonn]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Oryonn wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

So from the spoiler group, and watching YouTubes after the game had launched, I knew what the ending was.  About an hour ago I played it for myself, with my one and only Shepard, the one I've had right from the start.

And, wow.  For me, it was beautiful.  Seeing the culmination of the million steps it took the galaxy to get Shepard in the right place with a handgun just blew me away.  I think the trilogy was a stunning piece of work and that Mass 3, including the controversial ending, was easily the best game in the series.  

When it comes to the criticisms, I'm really not seeing them myself.  I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense.  The only problem I see with the narrative is how the crewmembers who were with you in the rush to the Conduit got back to the Normandy (in the event you see that ending).  I wonder if it would have been clearer to have whomever was with you defending the missile launchers to have died holding the line.

I guess what impressed and surprised me the most is how thought-provoking the ending was.  I'm left wondering what galactic society will look like when we make it back out to the stars again.  Anything seems possible, like it did for me right at the beginning of the series, which was an incredibly exciting ending for me personally.  Thank you, BioWare, that was one hell of a ride.

Why does everyone who liked to ending try to seem so deep and understanding? 

The same reason why people who arbitrarily hate it are over-simplifying and claiming it's hollow?

When did anyone who dislike it ever say it was hollow? o_o

It just didn't make much sense. Where did the God-Child come from? When did Mass Effect all become a bed time story for some kid in the future? Why am I called the Shepard?

OH TEH CONFUSHUNZ

Modifié par Oryonn, 19 mars 2012 - 07:12 .

[majormajormmajor]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The same reason why people who arbitrarily hate it are over-simplifying and claiming it's hollow?

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

arbitrarily

Stop using big words you don't know the meaning of

[ergonomalous]

I didn't say it would happen. I personally can see no other way it will turn out but bad.

[sadako]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Yep, you're right. You know me personally and we've had a long discussion about our personal beliefs and how we view stories that have nothing to do with this game.  I guess there is just no room for interpretation in games; so in that the fans themselves ensure it never evolves beyond "boss fight' and 'high score".

You win, obviously. I didn't realize we were competing though, so can I call mulligan?

Was I winning? I was under the impression that you were in desperation of trying to justify your ending, and I was just helping. I've made peace with the fact that bioware failed the ending badly and likely won't fix it. I'm just keeping the ****storm alive so they won't do the same with DA3.

[Oryonn]

majormajormmajor wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The same reason why people who arbitrarily hate it are over-simplifying and claiming it's hollow?

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

arbitrarily

Stop using big words you don't know the meaning of

No no, he's a pro-ender. They're deep and philosophical. They know stuffs and words.

[Jackal7713]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Serious; not trolling. The fact you have trouble believing that somebody could genuinely like a piece of creative work you disliked says a lot about you.

I'm sorry, but you like the fact that you were lied to? Man thats really sad buddy.

Modifié par Jackal7713, 19 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[count_4]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
I guess what impressed and surprised me the most is how thought-provoking the ending was.  I'm left wondering what galactic society will look like when we make it back out to the stars again.  Anything seems possible, like it did for me right at the beginning of the series, which was an incredibly exciting ending for me personally.  Thank you, BioWare, that was one hell of a ride.

And people would have accepted that. It's a harsh way of ending a gaming series but acceptable. And it was one hell of ride, no doubt.
The problem is how we got there. If you felt it was awesome, keep your positive thoughts and don't let yourself be convinced otherwise. It's your experience and the last thing we want is taking away the fun you obviously had.
Personally, I felt it dismissed everything the ME universe ever stood for. In and of itself as well as what it meant as a game. Free will, scientific reasoning and choice.
The solution is essentially space magic, we have no choice but to comply and pick a color and we impose our will on the galaxy. Either we destroy an entire race of sentient beings, we control the mightiest force of synthetics that probably ever existed, essentially just delaying the reaper threat because no-one knows what will happen or we, and this seems to be considered the best ending judging from the EMS requirements, force every single galactic race into a synthetic/organic fusion. You can bet that the last thing all those beings out there want is to be altered against their will.
Oh, and besides all that you have hundreds of races and thousands of ships stranded in Sol and every single Mass Relay blown up.
From what the whole universe has told us so far, all those races would rather die than succumb to that fate.

Modifié par count_4, 19 mars 2012 - 07:17 .

[DentedHalo]

Luc0s wrote...


You're not just ignorant, you're willful ignorant. That's even worse.

this... this.... a hundred times this!

[Genera1Nemesis]

Oryonn wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Oryonn wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

So from the spoiler group, and watching YouTubes after the game had launched, I knew what the ending was.  About an hour ago I played it for myself, with my one and only Shepard, the one I've had right from the start.

And, wow.  For me, it was beautiful.  Seeing the culmination of the million steps it took the galaxy to get Shepard in the right place with a handgun just blew me away.  I think the trilogy was a stunning piece of work and that Mass 3, including the controversial ending, was easily the best game in the series.  

When it comes to the criticisms, I'm really not seeing them myself.  I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense.  The only problem I see with the narrative is how the crewmembers who were with you in the rush to the Conduit got back to the Normandy (in the event you see that ending).  I wonder if it would have been clearer to have whomever was with you defending the missile launchers to have died holding the line.

I guess what impressed and surprised me the most is how thought-provoking the ending was.  I'm left wondering what galactic society will look like when we make it back out to the stars again.  Anything seems possible, like it did for me right at the beginning of the series, which was an incredibly exciting ending for me personally.  Thank you, BioWare, that was one hell of a ride.

Why does everyone who liked to ending try to seem so deep and understanding? 

The same reason why people who arbitrarily hate it are over-simplifying and claiming it's hollow?

When did anyone who dislike it ever say it was hollow? o_o

It just didn't make much sense. Where did the God-Child come from? When did Mass Effect all become a bed time story for some kid in the future? Why am I called the Shepard?

All great questions. Catalyst was never given an 'origin' story or ever actually defined really. (Possibly because they want some mystery left over, or have plans for Mass Effect 4 in the works that delves into this more)

The Sheperd is an allegory for what he did; he led the galaxy to a new future free of the Reapers endless cycle of death and destruction.

My interpretation was that they put that scene in to show that the galaxy wasn't all destroyed as some suggest (otherwise how would they be there) and that there was hope for the future; a future that we shaped and saved from destruction.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Great endings, great games, great series.

But the haters are gonna hate. Personally, I find them hilarious. Their self righteous anger is like the delicious sprinkles on top of a sundae. Delightful!

[CaptainZaysh]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Is it pulled out of his ass if it was established in Arrival?

I may hae to play it again, but I'm pretty sure Arrival established that a Mass Relay going BOOM = star system wiped out.  Otherwise, why the big rush to warn the Batarians?  

Because you're told that it if it explodes it's going to wipe out the star system.

I therefore assumed, though it wasn't confirmed, that it happened before i.e., a Mass Relay had exploded before.

Yeah, you're incorrect.  Established thinking was that the Relays were indestructable.  What Kenson established is that slamming a planetoid into one will cause a supernova.  That's it.  Presumably destroying them with the Catalyst has a different effect.  Pulled out of his ass.

jumpingkaede wrote...
CaptainZayash:  

I await your list of reasons that Joker and the Normandy would've been fleeing Earth prior to the Crucible firing.  Or, if that is too argumentative, your list of the reasons that Joker and  the Normandy would've been retreating.

To me it seemed like he was trying to outrun the energy pulse.  He may well have intended to return immediately afterwards.  I agree it wasn't explicitly shown what he was doing and BW could have been clearer on the exact events, but to me it's not really a big deal.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Oryonn wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The same reason why people who arbitrarily hate it are over-simplifying and claiming it's hollow?

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

arbitrarily

Stop using big words you don't know the meaning of

No no, he's a pro-ender. They're deep and philosophical. They know stuffs and words.

Yes, I know what it means and meant what I said.

ar·bi·trar·y  (ärb-trr)adj.1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.3. Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.4. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator

Please note I used it in context of number 2.

[Traestus]

Okay I want to fully explore this Normandy ho hah because the more you look at it the more nonsensical it is.

There are key facts we have to consider before you go through the whole situation.

We know that as of the time Shepard wakes from the Harbringer beam attack.

1. Shepard and his Squad are on the ground in london next to the beam

2. Joker and the Normandy are currently above earth as part of Sword.

3. The order for retreat after the call out that the rush for the beam failed is for Hammer ONLY, not sword, there is no dialogue in game ordering a Sword retreat.

4. There are only two types of interstellar travel available FTL travel using the Eezo engines and Mass Relay Transit.

5. That the nearest Mass Relay to earth is the Charon relay. From Earth to the Charon relay takes 8 hours traveling at FTL speeds.

So with that Shepard goes up the beam confronts TIM, has his final words with Anderson. At this point he activates the Crucible for the first time. Hackett calls over the comm that nothing happens. Then shepard ascends to play whats behind this door with the starchild.

Now as players it's left up to us how long this entire process takes, but my rough estimate is that the entire scenario takes roughly 45 min to about 2 hours from the time shepard reaches the citadel to making his final choice. While it could in theory take longer there's nothing to suggest, that any significant amount of time has passed.

So Shepard choices which ever one of three fancy buttons he wants to press and the Crucible fires. At this point we see the Normandy fleeing, at Joker forgetting that the Normandy doesn't have a rear window which begs the question why he turns around to stare behind him but anyway, and the hit by the energy pulse.

So at this point he is either in Mass Transit using the Charon relay or he was fleeing in FTL travel.

Now if he was using the Mass Relay it begs the questions...

1. How did Joker possibly get there in time, it takes 8 hours to travel to the Charon relay and make a jump, did he really have the time to abandon the fight above earth, fly down, pick up your squadmates himself since there's no shuttle since Cortez crashed it, then fly 8 hours to past Pluto to the Charon relay?

2. How did no one stop him, did the entire crew including your squadmates just decide that it was time for Pizza from Tuchanka? This is a gross violation of everyone's character given that they would have had to flee quite early from the battle to POSSIBLY make it to the relay in time.

But perhaps you say there were simply using FTL travel, if that's the case.

1. Doesn't that imply that every since ship above earth would be effected. Therefore wouldn't every ship that was currently above earth fighting would be either destroyed or wrecked and sent hurtling down towards earth effectively destroying the planet?

2. If he was flying in FTL transit where the hell did he land, there's clearly two moons in the shot when people step out of the Normandy so it's not earth. And no other planet in the Sol system has an environment like that. It's mathematically impossible for them to have exited the system using only FTL travel in time so if they used FTL travel only they HAVE to still be in Sol.

The Normandy scene is insulting to the entire series it makes no sense it stomps all over established characters. Even if you like the endings there's no way you can claim this part is objectively good.

[nikola8]

jumpingkaede wrote...

nikola8 wrote...

About the Normandy- why is the "only possible" explanation that Joker was fleeing?  What is to say that he didn't simply get hit from the blast of the Crucible while flying over Earth in the final battle while fighting the Reapers?  That makes much more sense given Joker's character.

So your possible explanation is that the Normandy was trying to outrun the Crucible blast?  

Or that he got hit by the Crucible blast while flying over Earth?

You are CORRECT; either would make more sense.  Well, not the trying to outrun the Crucible shot part because the Crucible fires in a straight line but...

You may want to rewatch the ending.  And if you want to tell me that starting at 1:47 it looks like Joker getting hit by the Crucible blast on Earth... even though you clearly see the blast following him at 1:53 and the Normandy either in FTL or in a relay jump... well.

I don't know what to say to you.

I have rewatched the ending multiple times.  The Normandy is clearly not in FTL or a relay jump based on simple math.  Look at the speed at which the blast from the cruicible and from the relays spreads out- it is visible to the eye.  However, FTL speeds are about 1.31*10^12 meters/s.  There is no way that the blast would have caught the Normandy if it were traveling in FTL.  If it were in a relay jump, it would be going even faster.  Either way, there is no way the blast would have caught the Normandy unless it were traveling in sub FTL speeds.

[CaptainZaysh]

ergonomalous wrote...

Fair enough. I am too much of a pessimist to think that any of the solutions are anything but bad. The people on these forums can't agree on something as simple as an ending to a game. I really doubt that all the species stranded in the sol system (if alive) will be able to come to an agreement that appeases everyone. Plus with the leaders of the species scattered all over the place, or dead, I don't see anything but civil war erupting. Nothing about these endings seem triumphant.

Luckily, our future will never depend on the BSN!

Anyway, I think you're wrong.  We don't need Reaper tech to achieve peace treaties and set up peaceful economies.  The galaxy is left with a vast rebuilding effort but I believe that people are up to the task.  New leaders will rise where they are needed.  It's a hopeful ending because although there is now a staggering set of challenges ahead of us, it's our future now and we can make it what we want.