459 réponses à ce sujet

[Fame-KIllz]

I didn't pay $79 to interpret and imagine the endings and fill in the plot holes that come with it.

[jumpingkaede]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I thought the problem was their relay jump failing.

Why is the Normandy making a relay jump?  Under what sort of circumstances would Joker and the Normandy Crew be making a relay jump in the middle of the FINAL battle for the Galaxy's survival?  

I invite speculation.

Just try to have your speculation consistent with what is told to us in-game and what is known about their characters. 

[The Real Bowser]

I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense.

Except that people have specifically, in detail, described exactly what was wrong with the ending.  If you like it, that's fine, but essentially saying "if you disagree with my opinion, you're crazy" is kind of childish and close-minded.  I don't feel like going in detail about why they are bad and I'm sure someone's covered it already.

When I first saw the ending, I was kind of dumbstruck.  I was too excited to have been playing through such an epic game, and such a mind-blowing (not good nor bad, just extremely surprising and trippy) ending.  For a while, I accepted the ending and thought it was 'good'.

What made me upset and opened my eyes about this ending is when I realized how amazing this ending could have been, and started seeing all the vast inconsistencies with the ending, and how much wasted potential it was.  Now, I refuse to accept it because we deserve better.  We deserve to feel like a hero, not like a pawn of the starkid (wtf?) / reapers.

[slimshedim]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

slimshedim wrote...

I bet your IQ is higher, especially when the statistics say so. Who am I to argue with a random stranger, who's even got statistics backing him up?

You're right, I'm just stupid as hell. I can't even write/type. The reason why you can read this is because I'm drooling all over the keyboard and apparently it happens to hit the right keyes. Must be some kind of...space magic.

It's "keys", not "keyes".  I'm starting to feel more and more confident about our spelling contest.

Darn, I drooled on the wrong key. Too bad I can't drool in my mother tongue here... See, that's why I didn't accept your challenge. You're clearly superior. Like the god child....and like in ME3 you can't disagree with somebody like the god child, can you?

Fame-KIllz wrote...

I didn't pay $79 to interpret and imagine the endings and fill in the plot holes that come with it.

The IQ is strong in this one.

Modifié par slimshedim, 19 mars 2012 - 06:12 .

[jb1983]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

So from the spoiler group, and watching YouTubes after the game had launched, I knew what the ending was.  About an hour ago I played it for myself, with my one and only Shepard, the one I've had right from the start.

And, wow.  For me, it was beautiful.  Seeing the culmination of the million steps it took the galaxy to get Shepard in the right place with a handgun just blew me away.  I think the trilogy was a stunning piece of work and that Mass 3, including the controversial ending, was easily the best game in the series.  

When it comes to the criticisms, I'm really not seeing them myself.  I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense.  The only problem I see with the narrative is how the crewmembers who were with you in the rush to the Conduit got back to the Normandy (in the event you see that ending).  I wonder if it would have been clearer to have whomever was with you defending the missile launchers to have died holding the line.

I guess what impressed and surprised me the most is how thought-provoking the ending was.  I'm left wondering what galactic society will look like when we make it back out to the stars again.  Anything seems possible, like it did for me right at the beginning of the series, which was an incredibly exciting ending for me personally.  Thank you, BioWare, that was one hell of a ride.

They are objectively bad endings, but that doesn't mean you can't like them and enjoy them. It just means you need to understand why the vast majority of players hate them.

[Shaun72]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Citadel was capable of generating a mass effect field around itself; much like a biotic shield as it were. This is explained in the cannon throughout; and is even evidenced by the gaping hole in the Normandy at the end of ME2 that noone wasn getting sucked out of.

I was talking about his lack of knowledge regarding the location you are specifically within the citadel. He thinks it is the interior, when you are clearly on the roof. Besides, I am pretty sure that was disrupted when the crucible docked.

[meisjoe]

My biggest criticism of the ending was that it was just kind of pasted on... You could make a similar ending to ANYTHING. A mysterious new character shows up at the last minute, and ends the game for you basically...

After everyone at BioWare worked so hard, giving us all the choices throughout the series - it is stunning that they would end it with such a static "one size fits all" ending...

I also think the ending was too simple compared to the EPIC plot. Do you remember how the LOTR ending went on and on and on...? That's because the producers recognized that the ending needed to be proportional to the journey. If Frodo dropped the ring into Mount Doom and the credits rolled - it would have been jarring. I think that's what happened in this case.

[Genera1Nemesis]

deathscythe517 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

I would just like one answer from OP.

Why would the ME Relays being destroyed be a good thing or something you loved?

Not the OP but I thought it opened the door for the series to go in a wildly different direction from that point on. The galaxy now needs to think for themselves; and if people are as all about choice as they say they are then that is 1000 times better than just using the tech that the Reapers built.

The galaxy is freed of the Reapers in every respect; and while losing the relays looks bad in the short-term; they are certainly not the be-all, end-all of space travel theory and the next story (Mass Effect 4 hopefully) can reflect that freedom.

Yep, this.

So you want the Mass Effect universe to abandon mass effect technology...

Shall Star Wars suddenly destroy the Force to take it into a 'new direction'? Mass Effect already took one huge direction shift from one to two and that polarized people, but completely jumping the shark with the story and hiding behind the excuse 'well they're trying something new' is just asinine.

Shall we have i, Robot without robots?
Or Superman without anything that makes him super?
Or I know, let's have Jurassic Park without dinosaurs, that works so well, after all it's a new direction!

I shouldn't have to point this out to someone who is obviously a big fan but biotics generate mass effect fields and so doe standard FTL travel. To say that this couldn't be improved on because now they kinda have too is just silly in a way. (give a man a stick, and he'll make a spear) as it were.

And what if they jsut started rebuilding the relays. The Protheans did it with the conduit at Ilos, and the Asari knew how to as well; one even said at one point in ME2 that 'it was time for the Asari and to stop being so lazy and start building some relays of our own."

[legion999]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

sadako wrote...

I agree with OP, it's brilliant how they saved money by changing the colours of the explosions and labelling it multiple endings. Simply brilliant! You guys underestimate the financial acumen and intelligence that is bioware.

So...you're basically angry there wasn't more CGI?

Or maybe it was because we were told there would be 16 different endings not the same ending with slight variations.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Shaun72 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Citadel was capable of generating a mass effect field around itself; much like a biotic shield as it were. This is explained in the cannon throughout; and is even evidenced by the gaping hole in the Normandy at the end of ME2 that noone wasn getting sucked out of.

I was talking about his lack of knowledge regarding the location you are specifically within the citadel. He thinks it is the interior, when you are clearly on the roof. Besides, I am pretty sure that was disrupted when the crucible docked.

The Crucible was one part of a whole; Catalyst claims that the citadel was 'part' of him: and if you watch the scene of the crucible docking at the citadel the two ends do not meet, and a 'blue' light activates that looks very similar to the same 'blue' that the catalyst was.

This to me suggests that Catalyst didn't activate until crucible docked to citadel; something that had never been done since the Reaper solution was introduced all those millions of years ago.

Modifié par Genera1Nemesis, 19 mars 2012 - 06:17 .

[CaptainZaysh]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Why is the Normandy making a relay jump?  Under what sort of circumstances would Joker and the Normandy Crew be making a relay jump in the middle of the FINAL battle for the Galaxy's survival?  

I invite speculation.

Just try to have your speculation consistent with what is told to us in-game and what is known about their characters. 

Well, it certainly wasn't explicitly explained, so I understand the question.  But I don't think you'd need to brainstorm for days to come up with a list of reasons that certain ships might choose or be ordered to fall back through the relay either while the Crucible's preparing to fire, or while that gnarly energy pulse builds up.

[Keirus]

Someone check the chans for a trolling template, with this much drama in one place it must be irresistible.

[jumpingkaede]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Well, it certainly wasn't explicitly explained, so I understand the question.  But I don't think you'd need to brainstorm for days to come up with a list of reasons that certain ships might choose or be ordered to fall back through the relay either while the Crucible's preparing to fire, or while that gnarly energy pulse builds up.

Give me ONE reason.  

Not "certain ships", the Normandy.  The Normandy as piloted by Joker as part of Sword, the front line attacking the Reapers.   The Crucible "preparing to fire" takes all of 10 seconds.  The "gnalry energy pulse build up" takes about the same amount of time.  

Unless your speculative reason is that the Normandy was ordered to fall back the moment the Crucible began to fire... then legged it FROM Earth to the Mass Relay, despite this being the FINAL battle and a fall back order being completely nonsensical,  in about 10 seconds?

I mean, if that's your reason for it... fine.  Me?  I don't think a fallback order would've been given since falling back = death by Reapers.  Plus it would mean Hackett saw a bright light and ordered the ships to beat it to the Sol Relay.  Yet the Normandy is the only one we see falling or retreating.  Every other ship is still fighting.  

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 19 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[Erethrian]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Shields normally only flare blue when under fire.  There was clearly something protecting Shepard during that scene.  It's established that parts of the Citadel that are open to space have an atmosphere (the ward arms).  Discussions like this are why I'm hugely suspicious of the supposed "plot holes".
...

I thought the problem was their relay jump failing.

...

I liked that touch.  If the Catalyst was wrong about that, it might have been wrong about other things, too, like the chance we could stave off the singularity forever.
...

Yeah, I agreed with that in my OP.

Hmm, the thing about the atmosphere's right but not mentioned in that specific case. I mean, we do know the ward arms have atmosphere, but in there?. Shepard can see the crucible just over his/her head and can't wonder "Wait, am I breathing?". Maybe, as you say, this is not an objective point of view but then, we don't know for sure that there's atmosphere in that specific place. Maybe something changed after the connection with the crucible but I'm almost sure that the place where the crucible is connected with the citadel is quite near the place where we needed mag. boots and helmet in ME1. This proves anything, we don't know who's right and in this case I'll have to agree, this is a subjective point. But it should be explained, somehow.


Well, about the Normandy, I think is the energy itself. As you can see, the ship gets out without problem, but once the energy hits the Normandy everything stops working. (At least I remember it that way)


About the catalyst, it's strange. Shepard's behaviour doesn't feel right even if we (the players) are thinking "it's a reaper, or someone who thought it was good to create the reapers, how can you believe a word it says!?".

[Myrmedus]

Arppis wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

You've still failed to express why the rest of us shouldn't have an ending we are potentially happy with. Why a videogame advertised as having multiple endings essentially has only one.

Well guess what? People have their opinions. If he was satisfied, let him be. He doesn't have to convince you as your opinion can't be turned around no matter what he would say.

I'm not expecting him to convince me, that's the point, because there's no argument to be made against that point.

I would leave him be if all he was doing was simply saying he liked it. He isn't, however. He is saying that everyone who feels the ending is objectively poor is wrong and that he likely has a higher IQ than anyone in here (ie. an arrogant ******).

It's the typical argument we've seen time and time again: "I'm more intelligent than all of you hence I understand the ending whilst you do not, and that is why you do not like it."

There are scores and scores of well presented, well evidenced, objective critiques on this forum that explain why the ending was poor from a logical and literary standpoint. If an individual has the gall to basically say "Nah, they're all bull****" then I'd like to at least see him successfully overturn those assertions. If not, I call bull****.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 19 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[Arppis]

deathscythe517 wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Ashilana wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

When it comes to the criticisms, I'm really not seeing them myself.  I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense. 

So... you are okay with your options being:

A) Follow the illusive man's plan of "controlling the reapers" which was shown to very clearly be a trap.

Wipe out all free will in the universe by changing all life in the universe into a new form without their consent.

C) Commit genocide.

This is why it's brilliant, you can make your own interpitations of it.

Stop using words like 'brilliant', 'thought provoking', and 'epic' to describe an ending that is missing very important details to make sense of just what the hell is going on, butchers the character of not only the protagonist but many others without so much as an explanation, and ultimately is the same damn thing across all six variations of the ending.

Not sixteen. Six. They should have never promised sixteen unless they meant text epilogues. Bioware failed to deliver on the promises made before release, they failed as a business, Bioware failed to remain consistent with the lore and themes of the universe while simultaneously ripping off another game without understanding the point of said ending - it worked in that universe because it was the theme but it comes out of left field here, and thus failed as story tellers.

You accept the ending, we get that, that doesn't make it amazing, people like My Little Pony but others (like me) don't give a crap. Quit trying to make your opinion more than an opinion by claiming something is what it is not.

Take a chill pill. It's still an opinion. Not a fact. 

Just saying, it's brilliant great to me because of that. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Arppis]

Myrmedus wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

You've still failed to express why the rest of us shouldn't have an ending we are potentially happy with. Why a videogame advertised as having multiple endings essentially has only one.

Well guess what? People have their opinions. If he was satisfied, let him be. He doesn't have to convince you as your opinion can't be turned around no matter what he would say.

I'm not expecting him to convince me, that's the point, because there's no argument to be made against that point.

I would leave him be if all he was doing was simply saying he liked it. He isn't, however. He is saying that everyone who feels the ending is objectively poor is wrong and that he likely has a higher IQ than anyone in here (ie. an arrogant ******).

It's the typical argument we've seen time and time again: "I'm more intelligent than all of you hence I understand the ending whilst you do not, and that is why you do not like it."

Ah, righto.

...well that sucks.

[The Real Bowser]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Why is the Normandy making a relay jump?  Under what sort of circumstances would Joker and the Normandy Crew be making a relay jump in the middle of the FINAL battle for the Galaxy's survival?  

I invite speculation.

Just try to have your speculation consistent with what is told to us in-game and what is known about their characters. 

Well, it certainly wasn't explicitly explained, so I understand the question.  But I don't think you'd need to brainstorm for days to come up with a list of reasons that certain ships might choose or be ordered to fall back through the relay either while the Crucible's preparing to fire, or while that gnarly energy pulse builds up.

Yes, yes you ****ing would.  So the game ends with Joker and your squad tucking tail and fleeing like cowards long before the crucible fires?  Great ending.  Great ****ing ending.

[Myrmedus]

Arppis wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

You've
still failed to express why the rest of us shouldn't have an ending we
are potentially happy with. Why a videogame advertised as having
multiple endings essentially has only one.

Well guess
what? People have their opinions. If he was satisfied, let him be. He
doesn't have to convince you as your opinion can't be turned around no
matter what he would say.

I'm not expecting him to convince me, that's the point, because there's no argument to be made against that point.

I would
leave him be if all he was doing was simply saying he liked it. He
isn't, however. He is saying that everyone who feels the ending is
objectively poor is wrong and that he likely has a higher IQ than anyone
in here (ie. an arrogant ******).

It's the typical argument we've
seen time and time again: "I'm more intelligent than all of you hence
I understand the ending whilst you do not, and that is why you do not
like it."

Ah, righto.

...well that sucks.

Yeah, it does.

In all honesty, I think I've seen -one- single thread on this forum of someone simply saying they liked the ending and why, the rest all essentially attack those who disliked it in one way or another, heh...

Modifié par Myrmedus, 19 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Myrmedus wrote...

I would leave him be if all he was doing was simply saying he liked it. He isn't, however. He is saying that everyone who feels the ending is objectively poor is wrong and that he likely has a higher IQ than anyone in here (ie. an arrogant ******).

Um, there's no need for that.  I was trying to be playful in response to somebody implying I was stupid for having an opinion.  (And anyway, I do likely have a higher IQ than him, I test in the top 5%.  :-P )

Myrmedus wrote...
It's the typical argument we've seen time and time again: "I'm more intelligent than all of you hence I understand the ending whilst you do not, and that is why you do not like it."

That's not at all what I meant to imply.

[Linus108]

Fame-KIllz wrote...

I didn't pay $79 to interpret and imagine the endings and fill in the plot holes that come with it.

..but..but..Shepard sacrificed himself in the end....so it was tragic...it was a heros story

i don't care that none of it made any sense, or there were plot holes and inconsistencies to the ending... just the general idea that he gave up his life to save everyone = satisfying ending

*sarcasm*

[nikola8]

Luc0s, all of your "plot holes" are actually questions. Just because something is vague doesn't mean that there isn't an explanation for it.

[sadako]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

sadako wrote...

I agree with OP, it's brilliant how they saved money by changing the colours of the explosions and labelling it multiple endings. Simply brilliant! You guys underestimate the financial acumen and intelligence that is bioware.

So...you're basically angry there wasn't more CGI?

Nope, I'm angry because they promised something else (see the promises signature below) and gave us something else entirely, and it was so obvious they were trying to save money.

I never complained about their previous products, but this takes the cake. It's like them advertising/promising a ferrari and then selling you an econobox for the same price as a ferrari.

Do I think the problem will get fixed? Doubtful, hence you don't see the retake logo in my sig. But I do want the company to know that you do not troll the customers and not expect to get burned. I just do not want to take drastic measures like taking them to court just to prove my point. I am doubtful I can win the case, but I'm sure it will make them very cautious about promising things they cannot deliver just to increase preorder sales.

The fact that you ignored their pre release promises just means that you're either a casual fan trolling for attention, or a corporate sockpuppet.

Modifié par sadako, 19 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[Linus108]

nikola8 wrote...

Luc0s, all of your "plot holes" are actually questions. Just because something is vague doesn't mean that there isn't an explanation for it.

No, they are plot holes. You don't write a plot for an entire trilogy, introduce new plot that doesn't align with the rest or re-write past plot, then expect the reader to accept it as is.

If you are going to do that, you need to explain. Not expect people to fill in the gaps. 

Modifié par Linus108, 19 mars 2012 - 06:24 .