459 réponses à ce sujet

[Xusa]

So a guy comes here to say how he likes the ending and it gets flooded with childish reaction like:

"Notice how all these pro-ending posts use the same language? "Thought-provoking", "memorable", "endless possibility."

Almost as if they had no originality of their own, or were working off a template... "

"lol he's trolling "

"....you are just plain wrong...it is objectively bad...please notice all the plotholes. "

So if someone doesn't agree with you he's wrong? You want BioWare to take your cause into consideration by being a crybaby?

Seriously, people like this are just plain ridiculous and deserve no more than to be ignored (and here I am not ignoring).

To the rest who actually respect who likes the ending: good luck (?).

[Arppis]

Myrmedus wrote...

Yeah, it does.

In all honesty, I think I've seen -one- single thread on this forum of someone simply saying they liked the ending and why, the rest all essentially attack those who disliked it in one way or another, heh...

Well, sorry for sounding a bit rude there.

[jumpingkaede]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Um, there's no need for that.  I was trying to be playful in response to somebody implying I was stupid for having an opinion.  (And anyway, I do likely have a higher IQ than him, I test in the top 5%.  :-P )

I'm also not trying to be intentionally provocative, but certainly I and the rest of the forum have failed to come up with a plausible rationale for the Normandy scene.

The best we could come up with was that Joker decided to flee the battle.  And decided to pick up your squad while doing so because, hey, why not.

Perhaps you have something better?  

[Annora]

AxholeRose wrote...

Anastassia wrote...

I, too, enjoyed the ending. As did every friend and family member of mine who played the game. There are people out there who aren't stamping their feet like petulant children because they didn't get to raise babies with Tali on Rannoch.

So only gay people enjoyed the ending? <_<

What the hell was that supposed to mean? Are you implying I'm gay, or are you implying that being gay is somehow a bad thing? You're not helping your argument.

[Leafs43]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

The other stuff, its okay, think what you want but this... Well it's objective to me, given the personality of Shepard and the fact that a human cant breathe/survive in outer space. Other than that, glad you liked the endings, I can only believe in a theory that gives them some sense (The indoctrination theory), and can only wait for a continuation DLC. If the theory isn't true, then the ending makes no sense to me (none of the current ones).

When was Shep exposed to vacuum?  I thought the ending was all in the Citadel interior?

Maybe you didn't have a look around.

[JasonC Shepard]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
So you didn't see those 10 plot-holes that the ending had? Or is it that you just don't mind plot-holes?

Whatver you think, I dare to say that an ending with at least 10 plot-holes is objectively bad.

Like what plot holes?

While I respect yor opinion and believe you have every right to it, "What plot holes?"  absolutely astounds me.  Maybe I have been playing Mass Effect for so long that the lore comes easy to me, but I will not further force any opinions on you by listing the plot holes.

[nikola8]

Linus108 wrote...

nikola8 wrote...

Luc0s, all of your "plot holes" are actually questions. Just because something is vague doesn't mean that there isn't an explanation for it.

No, they are plot holes. You don't write a plot for an entire trilogy, introduce new plot that doesn't align with the rest or re-write past plot, then expect the reader to accept it as is.

If you are going to do that, you need to explain. Not expect people to fill in the gaps. 

There is a lot of explanation.  I would also recommend people reading the books (except for the 4th one), because in addition to Kai Leng and Kahlee Sanders, they do seem to have taken a lot of the logic from them - most people I talk to who understand the endings have read the books.

[CaptainZaysh]

Erethrian wrote...

Hmm, the thing about the atmosphere's right but not mentioned in that specific case. I mean, we do know the ward arms have atmosphere, but in there?. Shepard can see the crucible just over his/her head and can't wonder "Wait, am I breathing?".

But Shep is obviously breathing.  So there is obviously an atmosphere there, just like on the ward arms.  If this is the kind of thing you guys are calling a plot hole then you need to rethink.

Erethrian wrote...
Well, about the Normandy, I think is the energy itself. As you can see, the ship gets out without problem, but once the energy hits the Normandy everything stops working. (At least I remember it that way)

Hmm.  I didn't see it that way.

Erethrian wrote...
About the catalyst, it's strange. Shepard's behaviour doesn't feel right even if we (the players) are thinking "it's a reaper, or someone who thought it was good to create the reapers, how can you believe a word it says!?".

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I blew it up.  I didn't trust that the information it had was accurate, let alone truthful.

[Ryoten]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

So from the spoiler group, and watching YouTubes after the game had launched, I knew what the ending was.  About an hour ago I played it for myself, with my one and only Shepard, the one I've had right from the start.

And, wow.  For me, it was beautiful.  Seeing the culmination of the million steps it took the galaxy to get Shepard in the right place with a handgun just blew me away.  I think the trilogy was a stunning piece of work and that Mass 3, including the controversial ending, was easily the best game in the series.  

When it comes to the criticisms, I'm really not seeing them myself.  I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense.  The only problem I see with the narrative is how the crewmembers who were with you in the rush to the Conduit got back to the Normandy (in the event you see that ending).  I wonder if it would have been clearer to have whomever was with you defending the missile launchers to have died holding the line.

I guess what impressed and surprised me the most is how thought-provoking the ending was.  I'm left wondering what galactic society will look like when we make it back out to the stars again.  Anything seems possible, like it did for me right at the beginning of the series, which was an incredibly exciting ending for me personally.  Thank you, BioWare, that was one hell of a ride.

You're simple minded.  That's all there is to it. 

[Darknessfalls23]

Starchild: Synthetics are the enemy not the reapers, Children always have to kill their father and marry their mother! You don't want the Geth making out with [Insert LI here] So go out there and kill Geth you brought with you while my reapers finish harvesting your kind.
Shepard: Okay maybe but how?
Starchild: well if you go over and shoot that tube over there it should send out a wave to kill all the Geth buttttt... it would kill all my poor little reapers that need more time to harvest your kind....
So,,,, why don't you go to that panel over there and stick your hands on the electric rods...
Shepard: What would that do?
Starchild: Most likely kill you but you might be able to control the reapers and get to killing that Geth problem. Just make sure they get back to Harvesting humans afterward hmmmm humans
StarChild: Better yet why don't you throw yourself in that hole over there.
Shepard: But what will that do?
StarChild: ummmmm well you see it will combined your DNA with Synthetic making you the template for my reaper arm... I mean to bring peace to all the galaxy. ..... Oh and it will kill you.
Shepard: You mean I turn everyone into a husk?
StarChild: Don't think about it so much, *pushes Shepard off the cliff* Thought he would never leave.

Modifié par Darknessfalls23, 19 mars 2012 - 06:29 .

[Myrmedus]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

I would leave him be if all he was doing was simply saying he liked it. He isn't, however. He is saying that everyone who feels the ending is objectively poor is wrong and that he likely has a higher IQ than anyone in here (ie. an arrogant ******).

Um, there's no need for that.  I was trying to be playful in response to somebody implying I was stupid for having an opinion.  (And anyway, I do likely have a higher IQ than him, I test in the top 5%.  :-P )

It doesn't matter, it doesn't need to be said. You may not have intended it this way but it comes across the same as these kinds of arguments you see on the web:

"I'm 182 lbs of muscle, I'll kick your ass."

"Yeah, well I'm the Jersey bare-knuckle boxing champion, yuh."

I'd recommend just avoiding it. If the jack-ass who went on about your intelligence wants to go down that route just let him.

And apologies for the insult, I'm simply getting very frustrated with this whole thing because it, IMO, should not exist as the vast majority of us should be happy with our individual ending. And I'm angry at BW for having sparked this, essentially turning us against each other. I have no doubts they didn't intend to originally, I bet they thought what they produced would be great, but now that they know there is such an uproar over this I find their silence or rhetoric abhorrent.

Myrmedus wrote...
It's the typical argument we've seen time and time again: "I'm more intelligent than all of you hence I understand the ending whilst you do not, and that is why you do not like it."

That's not at all what I meant to imply.

Again, apologies if that wasn't your intention but...in truth your OP does come across like that due to this part:

I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense.

The reason why is because there have been numerous critiques of the endings, well-structured and knowledgable, as to why they're objectively poor. Now, something objectively poor can be subjectively good depending on the audience, but from a literary perspective it commits story-telling crimes at numerous parts from the point where Shepard is lifted up on that elevator.

What I would argue is that you're looking past the hiccups when you see a good ending: the problem is that for some of us those hiccups are simply too large (what odd imagery! xD) to ignore.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 19 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[xxskyshadowxx]

The Lightspeaker wrote...

I can see why lots of people wouldn't like them, but the idea that they are objectively bad is nonsense.

I've actually explained extensively multiple times why it was an objectively bad ending but the california literary review take on it is perhaps the best summary:

Sloppy execution that reuses art assets reveals that it’s a hurried inclusion. The under thought and over pretentious dialogue does nothing but create bizarre, confusing plot holes. It even commits the same sin The Devil Inside did earlier this year, and has the gall to add an advertisement by the producers at the end of the credits, which is frankly insulting.

Far more importantly though, it betrays key themes and values well established by the series thus far. Past player choice impacting the shape of events is negated in favor of an arbitrary and poorly explained “pick your favorite color” moment. Science fiction justification in an otherwise material world is abandoned for magical deism, since quite literally, a god in a machine appears. Unification through altruism and sacrifice is thrown out for pure nihilism: each of the choices you’re forced to make results in Shepard committing some level of genocide or another, with the benefits removed from any relatable emotional touchstone to the intangible space of far flung statistics. It even manages to make The Reapers, one of the more imposing forces of antagonism in recent memory, come across as foolish pawns.

Source: http://calitreview.com/24673

So forgive me if I'm not going to be as happy about it as you apparently are. I can't just overlook these kinds of issues.

Wow that review nails it perfectly.

[jumpingkaede]

nikola8 wrote...

Luc0s, all of your "plot holes" are actually questions. Just because something is vague doesn't mean that there isn't an explanation for it.

When the only possible explanation contradicts everything we know about the characters and story... then yeah, it's a problem.

Going back to the Normandy: the only possible explanation is that Joker was taking off before the Crucible fired.  Why?  He suddenly turned coward?

The same Joker that flew vanguard against Sovereign in the Battle of the Citadel.  The same Joker who piloted the Normandy through the Omega 4 Relay.  The same Joker that knows that THIS is the final battle; it's win here or death anywhere.   That Joker turns tail and runs?  And convinces your squad to do the same?  In what galaxy does Garrus suddenly decide that he's going to board the Normandy and abandon Shepard?

[JasonC Shepard]

Xusa wrote...

So a guy comes here to say how he likes the ending and it gets flooded with childish reaction like:

"Notice how all these pro-ending posts use the same language? "Thought-provoking", "memorable", "endless possibility."

Almost as if they had no originality of their own, or were working off a template... "

"lol he's trolling "

"....you are just plain wrong...it is objectively bad...please notice all the plotholes. "

So if someone doesn't agree with you he's wrong? You want BioWare to take your cause into consideration by being a crybaby?

Seriously, people like this are just plain ridiculous and deserve no more than to be ignored (and here I am not ignoring).

To the rest who actually respect who likes the ending: good luck (?).

While I didn't like the ending, everyone in this thread rampaging against this guy just needs to take a serious look at this.  THIS is why Bioware is not taking us all too seriously.

[Linus108]

nikola8 wrote...

Linus108 wrote...

nikola8 wrote...

Luc0s, all of your "plot holes" are actually questions. Just because something is vague doesn't mean that there isn't an explanation for it.

No, they are plot holes. You don't write a plot for an entire trilogy, introduce new plot that doesn't align with the rest or re-write past plot, then expect the reader to accept it as is.

If you are going to do that, you need to explain. Not expect people to fill in the gaps. 

There is a lot of explanation.  I would also recommend people reading the books (except for the 4th one), because in addition to Kai Leng and Kahlee Sanders, they do seem to have taken a lot of the logic from them - most people I talk to who understand the endings have read the books.

There is nothing to "understand" about the endings, they are nonsense. You are reaching too much, and trying to find something that really isn't there.

Regardless if one is willing to accept the ending for what it is, it doesn't change the fact that it was poorly executed and presented. But since you are talking about "understanding" things, please try to justify Star Child and his logic of the Reapers doing what they do. Explain how that doesn't align at all with what was said in the past...

Explain why the Catalyst needed Saren to open the Citadel, if he (the thing that controls the reapers) is what powers the Citadel.

And if you say that Star Child at the end was lying, and was not the power to the Citadel. Then you admit that Shepard in the end is a fool, and got duped. 

Explain why a room at the top of somehwere, is able to magically make Robot DNA and Organic DNA fuse. Explain how there is a generator that if you shoot it, it destroys all synthetics.

Why are people defending space magic? 

Modifié par Linus108, 19 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[Erethrian]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

But Shep is obviously breathing.  So there is obviously an atmosphere there, just like on the ward arms.  If this is the kind of thing you guys are calling a plot hole then you need to rethink.

The fact that he's breathing in space doesn't imply that there's an atmosphere. It can perfectly be a hallucination of some kind. It can even be a plot hole, as it isn't explained. We can only guess, even if we see her/him breathing.

Also, the definition of a plot hole states that exact thing as a plot hole.

[sadako]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

sadako wrote...

I agree with OP, it's brilliant how they saved money by changing the colours of the explosions and labelling it multiple endings. Simply brilliant! You guys underestimate the financial acumen and intelligence that is bioware.

So...you're basically angry there wasn't more CGI?

Nope, I'm angry because they promised something else (see the promises signature below) and gave us something else entirely, and it was so obvious they were trying to save money.

I never complained about their previous products, but this takes the cake. It's like them advertising/promising a ferrari and then selling you an econobox for the same price as a ferrari.

Do I think the problem will get fixed? Doubtful, hence you don't see the retake logo in my sig. But I do want the company to know that you do not troll the customers and not expect to get burned. I just do not want to take drastic measures like taking them to court just to prove my point. I am doubtful I can win the case, but I'm sure it will make them very cautious about promising things they cannot deliver just to increase preorder sales.

The fact that you ignored their pre release promises just means that you're either a casual fan trolling for attention, or a corporate sockpuppet.

And thus the captain disappears back into the fold of the corporate skirt.

Modifié par sadako, 19 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

sadako wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

sadako wrote...

I agree with OP, it's brilliant how they saved money by changing the colours of the explosions and labelling it multiple endings. Simply brilliant! You guys underestimate the financial acumen and intelligence that is bioware.

So...you're basically angry there wasn't more CGI?

Nope, I'm angry because they promised something else (see the promises signature below) and gave us something else entirely, and it was so obvious they were trying to save money.

I never complained about their previous products, but this takes the cake. It's like them advertising/promising a ferrari and then selling you an econobox for the same price as a ferrari.

Do I think the problem will get fixed? Doubtful, hence you don't see the retake logo in my sig. But I do want the company to know that you do not troll the customers and not expect to get burned. I just do not want to take drastic measures like taking them to court just to prove my point. I am doubtful I can win the case, but I'm sure it will make them very cautious about promising things they cannot deliver just to increase preorder sales.

The fact that you ignored their pre release promises just means that you're either a casual fan trolling for attention, or a corporate sockpuppet.

And thus the captain disappears back into the fold or the corporate skirt.

Just to be clear were these statements about the ending made before or after fans asked them to change it the first time?

[nikola8]

jumpingkaede wrote...

nikola8 wrote...

Luc0s, all of your "plot holes" are actually questions. Just because something is vague doesn't mean that there isn't an explanation for it.

When the only possible explanation contradicts everything we know about the characters and story... then yeah, it's a problem.

Going back to the Normandy: the only possible explanation is that Joker was taking off before the Crucible fired.  Why?  He suddenly turned coward?

There are more explanations than one.  There isn't "only one possible" explanation.  I've read all the complaints people have, but I've also heard those complaints justified quite well within the lore of the ME universe.  I know that the ending raises questions, but people shouldn't hate the ending just because they don't have the answers.  Just because Bioware is ending Shepard's story, they have said that they will continue games in in the ME universe.  They have to keep some of the mystery or all of the future spin offs would be worthless.

About the Normandy- why is the "only possible" explanation that Joker was fleeing?  What is to say that he didn't simply get hit from the blast of the Crucible while flying over Earth in the final battle while fighting the Reapers?  That makes much more sense given Joker's character.

[Linus108]

nikola8 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

nikola8 wrote...

Luc0s, all of your "plot holes" are actually questions. Just because something is vague doesn't mean that there isn't an explanation for it.

When the only possible explanation contradicts everything we know about the characters and story... then yeah, it's a problem.

Going back to the Normandy: the only possible explanation is that Joker was taking off before the Crucible fired.  Why?  He suddenly turned coward?

There are more explanations than one.  There isn't "only one possible" explanation.  I've read all the complaints people have, but I've also heard those complaints justified quite well within the lore of the ME universe.  I know that the ending raises questions, but people shouldn't hate the ending just because they don't have the answers.  Just because Bioware is ending Shepard's story, they have said that they will continue games in in the ME universe.  They have to keep some of the mystery or all of the future spin offs would be worthless.

About the Normandy- why is the "only possible" explanation that Joker was fleeing?  What is to say that he didn't simply get hit from the blast of the Crucible while flying over Earth in the final battle while fighting the Reapers?  That makes much more sense given Joker's character.

No you haven't. You don't read what anyone really says. You just know you disagree with them, and then find a generic way to say that there COULD be an explanation.

And yet, you still have not found a way to explain why there is a room at the top of somehwere, that can magically fuse organic and robot DNA. A generator that if you shoot it, somehow destroys all synthetics.

You can't defend space magic, because it's space magic. 

[Turtlicious]

Nevermind, looking at his arguments for the ending.

Astroturf is Astroturfing.

[Llames]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

I would leave him be if all he was doing was simply saying he liked it. He isn't, however. He is saying that everyone who feels the ending is objectively poor is wrong and that he likely has a higher IQ than anyone in here (ie. an arrogant ******).

Um, there's no need for that.  I was trying to be playful in response to somebody implying I was stupid for having an opinion.  (And anyway, I do likely have a higher IQ than him, I test in the top 5%.  :-P )

Myrmedus wrote...
It's the typical argument we've seen time and time again: "I'm more intelligent than all of you hence I understand the ending whilst you do not, and that is why you do not like it."

That's not at all what I meant to imply.

You test top 5%?

Well I am top 1% and I dare you to prove me otherwise. Yes, I didn't like the ending..

Guess less intelligent people can't see the holes, huh?

Modifié par Llames, 19 mars 2012 - 06:39 .