219 réponses à ce sujet

[Aidan Rhane]

nikola8 wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

 Just had someone reply to me on Twitter saying that it's wrong to change the game over a minority... How can anyone honestly believe this is some small thing unless they haven't kept up to date on what's actually happening?

It is a minority- ~50,000 favor an ending change, ~5,000 are adamantly against it.  The game has sold over a million copies.  So, the majority (945,000) aren't losing sleep over this and don't care that much.  That is the majority.

You can't assume anything about the 'majority' one way or another. All you can go by is the reaction of those who have given feedback. And of those numbers, the majority definitely support that the ending should be changed / altered / expanded in some way.

[Turtlicious]

Turtlicious wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

 Just had someone reply to me on Twitter saying that it's wrong to change the game over a minority... How can anyone honestly believe this is some small thing unless they haven't kept up to date on what's actually happening?

Because we're getting white washed in the media, IGN and many others are calling us entitled brats with a hive mind mentality, and to be honest, on average WHEN POLLED 1:5 people like the ending, (The actual average was 83.66666666%, so I rounded down) These numbers are from the Bioware poll, the G4TV poll, the IGN Poll and I recently added the poll TAO just posted.

so, if 83.666(Adinfinitum) people dislike the ending, then whhy are we etting white washed?

Money, it boils down too that if you make a developer feel like crap, he's not gonna let you in on his next big project, which in turn will make the company less money, and you're out of a job. Developers and Gaming Journalist have a You scratch my back, and I scratch yours system, where press releases are traded for good interviews, this is just the honest to god truth, just like on BSN their are obvious penny posters trolling us, (Which is the only way I can imagine that they get away with being so directly inflammatory and yet not getting banned when I report them.)

Right now it's the majority of the consumers against the Money of EA, and to be quite honest we're winning, but because of this we are going to catch some heat, be called names and treated like crap. This is why we're saying hold the line, this is why we tell you guys to take a break, because it's going to actually be hard to hold onto that will to fight. You're going to feel hopeless, but if you can make it, if you can still be on BSN, like the threads that talk about your opinions, and ignore the threads that don't. Then you'll eventually win.

Hold the Line.

EDIT: Also, this is a sample group of nearly 75,000 (Someone please recheck my numbers though) which means that this is waaaay bigger then your average sample group and a pretty good indicator of the reality of the situation.

I hate you people when you ignore me, this took me like 15 minutes to write <_<

[Moondoggie]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

55,000 + people voted that they want better endings, vs about 3,00 who didn't. Did you not see the poll/Facebook group/twitter?


-Polite

Generally the most enthusiastic who wish to force change vote in these polls. Also there is no control on them voting more than once it's quite easy for people who vote multiple times to force their opinions. Also the effect of peer pressure has been quite strong. Everyone who is against the anti ending crowds beliefs is written off as stupid or on the side of "The evil corporations" so many want to be seen as  the cool rebels and join in with it. They are getting a lot of press and making their banners and slapping each other on the back so many joining up probably do it to feel accepted more than their opinion on something.

You're not considering several factors you're just pointing to a poll on the internet and saying "i'm right because this says i am"

[Neuthung]

donbaloo wrote...

I'll be frank, in the beginning I felt this probably was a case of the vocal minority being upset. And I mostly still do. And thats absolutely not meant to belittle your position or dismiss the outrage. You're entitled to that and I hope you guys get some satisfaction from BioWare.

We don't really have any real data though, and that's why I feel it's still probably a small (but still significant!) group that is unhappy with the game. What we do have are some polls on various gaming sites that obviously are going to draw folks that have a strong reaction to the game. It doesn't surprise me at all that the "data" is skewed towards the disappointed crowd. I don't know what your actual numbers show but even if you had a 100k people vocally being disappointed, that says nothing about the other...what...90% of people that have played or are playing the game?

So yeah, until a real and unbiased polling firm takes up the issue (which isn't going to happen) I have to believe that you're likely in the minority. But again, a significant minority! What's more important though is that I think your group probably very much represents the likely market of DLC customers. So you will definitely impacts the DLC discussion so don't give up!

Oh Duncan, I tend to like your disagreements solely because they're still supportive of your fellow gamers and at least make sense. As it stands, though, all we have to work with is the polls, and they all show one thing. Sure, self-selection is a part of this, but it can't account for everything. If I were Bioware and the numbers were showing even 50% of people would want a new ending, it would be a serious consideration. As it stands, it's much higher.

[Neuthung]

Turtlicious wrote...

Turtlicious wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

 Just had someone reply to me on Twitter saying that it's wrong to change the game over a minority... How can anyone honestly believe this is some small thing unless they haven't kept up to date on what's actually happening?

Because we're getting white washed in the media, IGN and many others are calling us entitled brats with a hive mind mentality, and to be honest, on average WHEN POLLED 1:5 people like the ending, (The actual average was 83.66666666%, so I rounded down) These numbers are from the Bioware poll, the G4TV poll, the IGN Poll and I recently added the poll TAO just posted.

so, if 83.666(Adinfinitum) people dislike the ending, then whhy are we etting white washed?

Money, it boils down too that if you make a developer feel like crap, he's not gonna let you in on his next big project, which in turn will make the company less money, and you're out of a job. Developers and Gaming Journalist have a You scratch my back, and I scratch yours system, where press releases are traded for good interviews, this is just the honest to god truth, just like on BSN their are obvious penny posters trolling us, (Which is the only way I can imagine that they get away with being so directly inflammatory and yet not getting banned when I report them.)

Right now it's the majority of the consumers against the Money of EA, and to be quite honest we're winning, but because of this we are going to catch some heat, be called names and treated like crap. This is why we're saying hold the line, this is why we tell you guys to take a break, because it's going to actually be hard to hold onto that will to fight. You're going to feel hopeless, but if you can make it, if you can still be on BSN, like the threads that talk about your opinions, and ignore the threads that don't. Then you'll eventually win.

Hold the Line.

EDIT: Also, this is a sample group of nearly 75,000 (Someone please recheck my numbers though) which means that this is waaaay bigger then your average sample group and a pretty good indicator of the reality of the situation.

I hate you people when you ignore me, this took me like 15 minutes to write <_<

Sorry bud, I actually really did like your post because it shows how massive the polling has been, especially in comparison to other polls of "importance."

[Thornne]

You know, if I were the only one of my friends that thought the ending was terrible, I might believe it. I have a pretty diverse bunch of people who are also gamers, and they have, to a person, agreed about the ending. I am not claiming that my circle of friends can be extrapolated to 'everyone hates the ending', but I think if a minority of people had a problem with the ending I'd have at least one friend who didn't.

[HaesoME3]

The polls clearly shows we're the majority, even adjusting for sampling biases there's no possible way to have ratios like these without being the overwhelming majority...


I enjoy math, it always saddens me to see people misunderstand it.

[Frosteeze]

Neuthung wrote...

 Just had someone reply to me on Twitter saying that it's wrong to change the game over a minority... How can anyone honestly believe this is some small thing unless they haven't kept up to date on what's actually happening?

I think that the people who are involved in the movement is proportionally smaller than the total number of people who played the game. However, it can be said that most people are disappointed with the ending. It's just that, they don't really involve themselves with the movement.

You can't rightly call the movement a minority. So far, I haven't seen a "Don't change the ending" movement. So it can't be a minority when it is the only movement available. You can, I think, call it a minority in relation to the total number of people playing the game. Nevertheless, that's just petty statistics and doesn't really change the effectiveness of the movement.

[Killer3000ad]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Before trying to appear clever, please take a course on statistics (and pay special attention to the methods of sampling part), so maybe less people will laugh at you.

Your sampling is equivalent of putting a box beside a lake to define its composition. You leave it for a night, and next morning you see that there are a few frogs in it. Congratulations, you just statistically proved that lakes are made out of 95% air and 5% frogs...

Truth is, we don't know. I doubt even BW knows it yet. They will know it sooner or later, we won't. End of story.

I never claimed we were the majority. All I ever meant was that it's wrong for others to call us a minority. Yes I know how poll samples need to be random if one wanted to use it gauge the greater population. But so many polls on BSN and other sites show the majority of voters to dislike the endings. We definitely can't CLAIM to be the majority but we certainly, AREN'T THE MINORITY, at which case you are correct that we DON'T KNOW with regards to the whole gamer population who have played ME3.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 19 mars 2012 - 05:51 .

[Ezekiel_Frost]

Oh c'mon "vocal minority" guys. You're probably right that the poll doesn't represent the situation exactly. But there is a clear tendency here and on other polls around the internet that show the some direction: The endings are trash!

I wonder why you think the people coming here are mindless haters. The opposite is true! Obviously players not only come here to vote. This is a place for the fans - those who (used to) love Bioware. Everyone else will just think: "Oh well, that sucked" and return to playing Skyrim...

Of course you don't have to believe me - but 20% price drops on Amazon two weeks after the release might be a hint here...

Modifié par Ezekiel_Frost, 19 mars 2012 - 05:52 .

[Neuthung]

Moondoggie wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

55,000 + people voted that they want better endings, vs about 3,00 who didn't. Did you not see the poll/Facebook group/twitter?


-Polite

Generally the most enthusiastic who wish to force change vote in these polls. Also there is no control on them voting more than once it's quite easy for people who vote multiple times to force their opinions. Also the effect of peer pressure has been quite strong. Everyone who is against the anti ending crowds beliefs is written off as stupid or on the side of "The evil corporations" so many want to be seen as  the cool rebels and join in with it. They are getting a lot of press and making their banners and slapping each other on the back so many joining up probably do it to feel accepted more than their opinion on something.

You're not considering several factors you're just pointing to a poll on the internet and saying "i'm right because this says i am"

I think it's kind of unfair to look at what has actually been done and try to discount it based on  peer pressure.

[spartan5127]

Omg, i am getting tired of the same assumption that everyone complaining here and in the polls is 100% of the people who hate the endings and comparing that to number of copies sold.

The fact of the matter is that it is rare for anyone to voice there opinion online. Even with youtube that has a big obvious like or dislike button rarely gets pushed by the majority of users. Are we to assume that all the views on that video hold the opposite opinion of the like dislike ratio because they didn't click it. No. And that assumption shouldn't be made here either.

The amount of dissatisfaction online can still tell you something about the overall playerbase. That is why companies take this type of reaction seriously.

Modifié par spartan5127, 19 mars 2012 - 05:50 .

[Masterxalucard]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...

http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/
http://www.computera...ioware-blow-it/
http://www.facebook....50639359051633/

No you aren't the minority.

Before trying to appear clever, please take a course on statistics (and pay special attention to the methods of sampling part), so maybe less people will laugh at you.

Your sampling is equivalent of putting a box beside a lake to define its composition. You leave it for a night, and next morning you see that there are a few frogs in it. Congratulations, you just statistically proved that lakes are made out of 95% air and 5% frogs...

Truth is, we don't know. I doubt even BW knows it yet. They will know it sooner or later, we won't. End of story.

Before you appear to be clever, please be sure to check such things as relevant sampling sizes, and how what has been done kind of blows the usual numbers out of the water.

I think you should stop before making a bigger fool from yourself. It's not about the size of the box it's about leaving it beside the lake. The sample size can be enough the method of sampling (self-participation without any filtering) is simply wrong.

befor you make yourself look like more of a fool you should realize that recording peoples opinions, and figuring out the biological composition of a lake are not even remotely similar. People have  opinons, where as frogs just want some place warm to sleep.

[Moondoggie]

Aidan Rhane wrote...

the majority definitely support that the ending should be changed / altered / expanded in some way.

I'll believe that when i see the results of a fair test. Which is impossible now one side of the opinion has been made cool with their banners and catchphrase of "hold the line" and the other side are just idiots and people siding with the big bad publshers who hate all gamers and therefore if you agree with them you hate gamers.

Too much psycological pressure on gamers from here to join one side so it's almost impossible to test anything fairly.

[blmlozz]

I believe the poll is up to 60K right now, however I would agree that's an enormous sampling size. The major TV news networks blast polling data from a few as 1,000 samplers as factual evidence all the time. That poll is 60 times larger than that. No one polls that large, except maybe the US census.

I'll believe that when i see the results of a fair test. Which is
impossible now one side of the opinion has been made cool with their
banners and catchphrase of "hold the line" and the other side are just
idiots and people siding with the big bad publshers who hate all gamers
and therefore if you agree with them you hate gamers.

Too much psycological pressure on gamers from here to join one side so it's almost impossible to test anything fairly.

that's anywhere you go, not just in the gaming community. people have natural tendecies to try to fit into established cultures. It's nothing more than that. Do you really believe we have only 2 major political parties because everyone agrees with repulicans or democrats on *every* topic they present collectively? 

Modifié par blmlozz, 19 mars 2012 - 05:54 .

[vics20]

ITT - people who don't know how polling works.

That said, even with this large majority, bioware still won't say/do much unless they can profit from it or if they think a lack of resolution will hurt future profits. Remember, publicly traded company.

[Thetri]

Imagine how many people who hate the ending that don't go on forums. That number is probably really high. I see it myself here at my local EB games, I went up there and saw tons of used Mass Effect 3's on Xbox 360 and PS3. I asked the clerks about it, they said most of them traded it in because of the ending. Also I'm seeing a alarmingly large amount of used Mass Effect 1's showing up aswell. Before this ending controversy Mass Effect 1 on Xbox 360 was extremely rare.

[GoblinSapper]

As time goes on the major news outlets are changing their tune from "lol these crazy fanboi minorities" to "ok theres ALOT of people but I still blahblahblah"

[Neuthung]

Ezekiel_Frost wrote...

Oh c'mon "vocal minority" guys. You're probably right that the poll doesn't represent the situation exactly. But there is a clear tendency here and on other polls around the internet that show the some direction: The endings are trash!

I wonder why you think the people coming here are mindless haters. The opposite is true! Obviously not all players come here to vote. This is a place for the fans - those who (used to) love Bioware. Everyone else will just think: "Oh well, that sucked" and return to playing Skyrim...

Of course you don't have to believe me - but 20% price drops on Amazon two weeks after the release might be a hint here...

This is what gets me most. We're not a bunch of people that hated the ending just to hate it: We're a group of people that loved these games and hate to see the story ended in such a way.

[blmlozz]

Neuthung wrote...

This is what gets me most. We're not a bunch of people that hated the ending just to hate it: We're a group of people that loved these games and hate to see the story ended in such a way.

amen to that.

[Grasich]

Reiella wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Jamboa42 wrote...

I'm genuinely curious what makes you think you're in the majority?

Polls usually use very very small sample sizes. The sample sizes we've been getting are quite large relative to what is necessary for a poll to be considered noteworthy. Are polls like this going to be slightly biased towards the angry side? Of course. But 90+% being dissatisfied in the polls is waaaaay too high to be justified by that reasoning.

While mostly accurate, there is a big statistical failing with these polls.  They are not scientifically proctored.  A lot of statistical theory no longer applies to them.

~500 people is all you need to reasonably represent a population if you have adequate sampling.  These polls will suffer from self-selection bias.

The polls still indicate something very important, that there is dissatisfaction with the ending.  But please, stop trying to apply statistical theory to them, it doesn't work that way .

TBH I never put much stock in statistics. As others have said though, there has been quite large reaction and the number of people needed to vote FOR the endings to make us a minority would need to be around 3 times the number that has currently voted in favor of the endings. Even that would only make us just barely the minority. This is including polls on sites that rated the endings as being good, btw.

As I said though, I don't put too much stock in statistics. I just fail to see how people can accept the current endings.

[recentio]

Neuthung wrote...

 Just had someone reply to me on Twitter saying that it's wrong to change the game over a minority... How can anyone honestly believe this is some small thing unless they haven't kept up to date on what's actually happening?

First, many polls and forums show that dissatisfied players are an overwhelming majority.

Second, BW has shown they are willing to open their games to minority interests. For example, Steve Cortez. How many players want to romance him? Not many at all. But that option is still an important and valuable addition to the game, IMO.

So I disagree x2 with that twitterer on this issue.

Modifié par recentio, 19 mars 2012 - 05:53 .

[GoblinSapper]

Masterxalucard wrote...

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...

http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/
http://www.computera...ioware-blow-it/
http://www.facebook....50639359051633/

No you aren't the minority.

Before trying to appear clever, please take a course on statistics (and pay special attention to the methods of sampling part), so maybe less people will laugh at you.

Your sampling is equivalent of putting a box beside a lake to define its composition. You leave it for a night, and next morning you see that there are a few frogs in it. Congratulations, you just statistically proved that lakes are made out of 95% air and 5% frogs...

Truth is, we don't know. I doubt even BW knows it yet. They will know it sooner or later, we won't. End of story.

Before you appear to be clever, please be sure to check such things as relevant sampling sizes, and how what has been done kind of blows the usual numbers out of the water.

I think you should stop before making a bigger fool from yourself. It's not about the size of the box it's about leaving it beside the lake. The sample size can be enough the method of sampling (self-participation without any filtering) is simply wrong.

befor you make yourself look like more of a fool you should realize that recording peoples opinions, and figuring out the biological composition of a lake are not even remotely similar. People have  opinons, where as frogs just want some place warm to sleep.

Before I make you both look like even bigger fools I think you should realize lakes are cold and Marauder Shield died for your sins

[savionen]

50k people is a good sample size, especially considering it's come from 3 different sources. I didn't even vote on G4's.

Do you think they test a flu vaccine on 300 million people before they give it to said 300 million people?