219 réponses à ce sujet

[mpgeist]

A minority could still be as high as 49%. In any case this isn't your typical backlash.

[Alamar2078]

I believe that a lot of people are upset by the endings. I think the people that are doing the hard core lobbying for a change may well be a minority.

Lets face it even if 100% of the people thought the endings were the worst thing ever and also feel ripped off less than 10% would be actively lobbying for a change. Looking at it that way it is a minority but it's a minority representative of the majority IMHO. YMMV.

Note: This being BW's work is largely irrelevant. This is about BW delivering on their pre launch statments [IMHO]

[Shallyah]

All I know is that all my real life friends that bought Mass Effect (like 7 or 8 people I know well bought it) think it blows and sucks beyond words, but they can't care enough to log in this site and follow up with what is going on, they don't even speak English properly, and are casual players that in future, given the choice, will simply not buy any more games or DLC from Bioware as long as there are alternatives, or will at least have strong doubts about if they should invest in a product that did not deliver what it promised.

I play another game in a community of about 200 people and in the forums there is a thread about how much Mass Effect 3 didn't make sense and was a complete letdown.

The ones that are here being vocal represent those tousands of people who have more important things to do in their lives than trying to get a better ending for a game. They take the easy path, the "next time I'll just not buy it". We actually give Bioware a chance to undo the disaster and not lose customers, because we love Mass Effect with a passion.

Modifié par Shallyah, 19 mars 2012 - 06:13 .

[nikola8]

Falcon509 wrote...

How does that mean that the non-vocal majority wants the ending to stay the same? If anything, the argument could be made that if changes to the ending were made, most people would favor it, or wouldn't care at all.

.

That's my point- I'm not saying that the non-vocal majority want the ending to stay the same.  I'm saying that, for the non-vocal majority, they don't care THAT MUCH regardless of their personal feelings of the ending.  These people would probably buy new ending DLC, but they would probably be just as happy with new mission DLC.  As in most areas of life, the majority find themselves in the middle of a debate with a lot of apathy towards a given topic.  

[815Sox]

HaesoME3 wrote...

golyoscsapagy wrote...

recentio wrote...

Self-sampling in this case indicates significant interest/engagement. I.e. a legitimate sampling of the DLC market, IMO.

No. Most people who are content with the status quo don't vote. It's simple human behaviour - if you are okay, you don't do anything. Same **** with dictatorships and the like. You can't draw conclusions about the whole when you only have a sample from the naysayers.

You know nothing.

Sampling bias does not account for the massive disparity in these polls - the only conclusion for anyone who genuinely understands statistics is we're the majority. Sure the vocal group is the minority, but it's a near certainity those disappointed are the majority overall.

Sampling bias simply cannot be made a scape goat for these numbers, stop this madness please.

No.  You cannot make a statement that starts with "you know nothing" then follwed by  "the only conclusion" that the majority of people are disappointed. Just because you see something frequently on the internet does not mean that it reflects the majority.  You know what they say about assumptions.

[Kulthar Drax]

I know many people on other forums who hate the endings but don't bother to voice it because they feel their opinions are worthless in the eyes of EA anyway. Regardless of whether this is a good or bad mentality to have (I consider it bad overall), it is still how many people view the situation, even if they hate it.

[Moondoggie]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

You're quite right that it is unfair for people to attack those who liked the ending as "not true fans". However, I do think it is fairly obvious that the majority were unhappy with the ending. The reasons why we were unhappy and the reasons why others liked the ending seem to have a lot to do with expectations and they way each group viewed the story in the first place.

Technically you are still agreeing with those views though you just worded it in a different way. Those who liked the ending could not possibly view the story and the game in the way you do therefore are not "true fans"

[HaesoME3]

815Sox wrote...

HaesoME3 wrote...

golyoscsapagy wrote...

recentio wrote...

Self-sampling in this case indicates significant interest/engagement. I.e. a legitimate sampling of the DLC market, IMO.

No. Most people who are content with the status quo don't vote. It's simple human behaviour - if you are okay, you don't do anything. Same **** with dictatorships and the like. You can't draw conclusions about the whole when you only have a sample from the naysayers.

You know nothing.

Sampling bias does not account for the massive disparity in these polls - the only conclusion for anyone who genuinely understands statistics is we're the majority. Sure the vocal group is the minority, but it's a near certainity those disappointed are the majority overall.

Sampling bias simply cannot be made a scape goat for these numbers, stop this madness please.

No.  You cannot make a statement that starts with "you know nothing" then follwed by  "the only conclusion" that the majority of people are disappointed. Just because you see something frequently on the internet does not mean that it reflects the majority.  You know what they say about assumptions.

It's... not an assumption...

Have you ever taken a class on statistics? Do you use statistics in your every day life and/or work? I have and I do. Sampling bias cannot account for the poll numbers. If you knew anything about statistics you'd understand this.

Yes it's true sampling bias means it's probably not the vaunted 98% some people use - but it's still logically the overall majority.

It's very disheartening to see people who've no understanding of statistics try and dismiss them.

[Turtlicious]

Moondoggie wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

You're quite right that it is unfair for people to attack those who liked the ending as "not true fans". However, I do think it is fairly obvious that the majority were unhappy with the ending. The reasons why we were unhappy and the reasons why others liked the ending seem to have a lot to do with expectations and they way each group viewed the story in the first place.

Technically you are still agreeing with those views though you just worded it in a different way. Those who liked the ending could not possibly view the story and the game in the way you do therefore are not "true fans"

I don't think he was, I think he was saying is that they had different expectations, wants, and needs from the games. He's just saying they were a different kind of (But still a True) fan.

[cachx]

 50,000 is the 90% of +1,000,000 . Sounds legit.

I have 4 friends who play

one thinks like me and simply shrugged off the bad ending "it was an awesome game anyway"
two are actively picketing and harrassing Bioware personnel through social sites.
the last one is in depression right now because "it was too sad".

All except the last one are on their second or third playthroughs and play MP regularly. 

[The Night Mammoth]

815Sox wrote...

HaesoME3 wrote...

golyoscsapagy wrote...

recentio wrote...

Self-sampling in this case indicates significant interest/engagement. I.e. a legitimate sampling of the DLC market, IMO.

No. Most people who are content with the status quo don't vote. It's simple human behaviour - if you are okay, you don't do anything. Same **** with dictatorships and the like. You can't draw conclusions about the whole when you only have a sample from the naysayers.

You know nothing.

Sampling bias does not account for the massive disparity in these polls - the only conclusion for anyone who genuinely understands statistics is we're the majority. Sure the vocal group is the minority, but it's a near certainity those disappointed are the majority overall.

Sampling bias simply cannot be made a scape goat for these numbers, stop this madness please.

No.  You cannot make a statement that starts with "you know nothing" then follwed by  "the only conclusion" that the majority of people are disappointed. Just because you see something frequently on the internet does not mean that it reflects the majority.  You know what they say about assumptions.

Not necesarily, but a poll even if sample bias is taken account with such high numbers and such a ridiculously one sided consensus is nothing to sneeze at. 

[wryterra]

Neuthung wrote...

 Just had someone reply to me on Twitter saying that it's wrong to change the game over a minority... How can anyone honestly believe this is some small thing unless they haven't kept up to date on what's actually happening?

Beware of echo-chamber mentality. Everyone you talk to agrees but that doesn't mean everyone agrees. Hundreds of thousands of copies have been sold, only tens of thousands of people are complaining. That means the movement is the minority. 

[slimshedim]

Terminus Echoes wrote...

Well, with the poll having about 60,000 votes, and the overwhelming majority saying they disliked the ending, all you have to do is scale that ratio up and you'll learn that we're not the minority.

It's called statistics.

Dude, don't shatter their illusions. If yellow press media sites say we're a minority we're a minority.

[Chronor]

Anyone who tries to convince people that the result of the polls have no bearing or that there's actual truth to labeling dissatisfied customers as the so-called 'vocal minority' need to grasp some fundamentals here.

Any internet polls is inherently going to be questionable to a degree. Thus, people should not cite the actual numbers as fact per se. HOWEVER, the specific polls are indicative of a very real trend, emphasis on "indicative" and "trend". From the results shown, we can safely say that many do not like the ending.

There's many outliers to consider too in this type of environment. People who are satisfied with the ending as is probably would not be participating in the on-going debate. On the flip side, there are many instances of players who normally would not say anything on the forums actually coming in to voice their concerns on both sides of the issue.

In sum, while people may have a shaky basis for labeling the cause as "minority", there's far more evidence to the contrary. When the polls shows a trend of majority of people being satisfied including our bros/sis from overseas, well that shows a "majority" rather than a minority.

Modifié par Chronor, 19 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[The Night Mammoth]

wryterra wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

 Just had someone reply to me on Twitter saying that it's wrong to change the game over a minority... How can anyone honestly believe this is some small thing unless they haven't kept up to date on what's actually happening?

Beware of echo-chamber mentality. Everyone you talk to agrees but that doesn't mean everyone agrees. Hundreds of thousands of copies have been sold, only tens of thousands of people are complaining. That means the movement is the minority. 

No, it doesn't. 

You don't need the oh-so-special class on statistics to understand that's completely wrong.

[The Real Bowser]

saracen16 wrote...

Because it's BioWare's work, not yours.

Oh, they don't have to change a thing.  And we don't have to purchase another Bioware product ever again, too.

They could have made Mass Effect 3 about a dog taking a dump and put a 200 dollar price tag on it.  This doesn't mean that anyone will purchase the game.

Corporations like Bioware live and die, profit and fail based off of whether we buy their games.  I don't think this will kill Bioware, but it is certainly going to wound them.  And there's really no reason not to fix it, especially when they can potentially profit from it in a number of ways.

Either way, I just wanted to say how sick I am of seeing this ignorant comment.  Yeah, it is Bioware's work.  Video games aren't art for you to appreciate.  They are products we purchase for our entertainment.  If we don't enjoy it, we won't buy their products.  Not rocket science.

Modifié par The Real Bowser, 19 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[golyoscsapagy]

HaesoME3 wrote...

golyoscsapagy wrote...

recentio wrote...

Self-sampling in this case indicates significant interest/engagement. I.e. a legitimate sampling of the DLC market, IMO.

No. Most people who are content with the status quo don't vote. It's simple human behaviour - if you are okay, you don't do anything. Same **** with dictatorships and the like. You can't draw conclusions about the whole when you only have a sample from the naysayers.

You know nothing.

Sampling bias does not account for the massive disparity in these polls - the only conclusion for anyone who genuinely understands statistics is we're the majority. Sure the vocal group is the minority, but it's a near certainity those disappointed are the majority overall.

Sampling bias simply cannot be made a scape goat for these numbers, stop this madness please.

Yet another clever person.

Sampling bias does not have an error margin attached. Your poll shows that there are (didn't check it just pulling numbers from my ass) 50k people that hated the endings, 1k who likes it (idk, you were talking about 2% right?). But you know absolutely nothing about the rest several million owners. If you take proper methods of sampling (randomly chosing guys weighted by several factors - education, wealth, age comes to my mind as relevant) you would be able to draw conclusions for the total.

But as soon as you fail to take a proper sample you can't make that last logical step - you are left with your initial data that there are at least 50k people against and 1k people for the ending and you know nothing about the preference of the rest.

Seriously google it. Just having an internet connection and a strong oppinion will not make you an expert in any field, I'm sorry.

[Reiella]

HaesoME3 wrote...

It's... not an assumption...

Have you ever taken a class on statistics? Do you use statistics in your every day life and/or work? I have and I do. Sampling bias cannot account for the poll numbers. If you knew anything about statistics you'd understand this.

Yes it's true sampling bias means it's probably not the vaunted 98% some people use - but it's still logically the overall majority.

It's very disheartening to see people who've no understanding of statistics try and dismiss them.

...  I hate when statisticans skip scopes and methods.

[wryterra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

wryterra wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

 Just had someone reply to me on Twitter saying that it's wrong to change the game over a minority... How can anyone honestly believe this is some small thing unless they haven't kept up to date on what's actually happening?

Beware of echo-chamber mentality. Everyone you talk to agrees but that doesn't mean everyone agrees. Hundreds of thousands of copies have been sold, only tens of thousands of people are complaining. That means the movement is the minority. 

No, it doesn't. 

You don't need the oh-so-special class on statistics to understand that's completely wrong.

The conclusion, depending on estimated sales, that "90% of Mass Effect 3 players don't care enough to vote" is equally valid as "Poll suggests majority of fans disappointed." 

You don't need what you seem to think is a special class on statistics to understand that. 

[charon45]

Moondoggie wrote...


The problem is proper sample groups are tested with proper conditions and research done on the results. An internet poll is anonymous and has no controls. It's inaccurate because the results are not based on anything nor can they be researched and understood.

This is actually not completely true.  Internet polling is open to its share of criticism, but many researchers are starting to come around due to volume of data that can be gathered and the relative ease of use.  That doesn't mean that the BSN poll is a scientific poll, but if I had to put money on it, I would say more fans dislike the endings than like them based on the lopsided results whenever the question is asked. 

[Annora]

FarynUEA wrote...

Anastassia wrote...

nikola8 wrote...

It is a minority- ~50,000 favor an ending change, ~5,000 are adamantly against it.  The game has sold over a million copies.  So, the majority (945,000) aren't losing sleep over this and don't care that much.  That is the majority.

A thousand times this.

I hate this community, so I have actively avoided this place since before DA2 came out. It's a cesspool that's gone way beyond the WoW forums. But I'm back now because I feel like I, as one of those silent majority, needed to come back to express that I enjoyed the game and have no regrets about how it ended.

I personally know 15 people who feel the same way as me. I know 2 who are on the hate BioWare bandwagon, and didn't give this game a chance from the getgo. Every 5 minutes, one of them would message me with "Oh, the combat sucks." or "This multiplayer is ****." or "The run animations are stupid." or "The new companions suck." or "I'm so glad I pirated this because **** EA and Origin." I haven't talked to either of them in over a week and a half now because I was sick of their whining, and sick of their entitlement. Meanwhile, i bought the game, and I bought the DLC because none of the stores around me had any Collector's Editions, and I enjoyed myself immensely. I continue to enjoy myself.

So to recap: 2 against, 15 for in my own personal circles of friends and family. And one of those 2 wasn't even an actual customer.

Your outrage is NOT universal.

Funny ... none of the complaints your "friends" list are really an issue? (at least not the us that Hold the Line

And for the record, I know 15 people of which 13 hated the ending ... totally a not made up number!

Shall I list the people and their relationships to me, then?

Mother - Enjoyed the ending
Sister - Enjoyed the ending
Brother in law - Enjoyed the ending
Husband - Enjoyed the ending
Best friend - Enjoyed the ending
Best friend's little sister - Enjoyed the ending
Cousin - Enjoyed the ending
Ex-boyfriend - Enjoyed the ending
Old guildmaster - Enjoyed the ending
Husband's childhood friend - Enjoyed the ending
Co-worker - Enjoyed the ending
Guildmate - Enjoyed the ending
Guildmate - Enjoyed the ending
Old 2s partner - Enjoyed the ending
Nephew - Enjoyed the ending

Guildmate - Disliked the ending
Old friend - Hated everything about the game

The combat was much improved from 2, I didn't even notice the run animations so they didn't bother me, I greatly enjoyed both Vega and Javik, and I've had Origin installed on my computer since it was the EA Download Manager and find the complaints against Origin utterly asinine.

[Alraiis]

I don't think it's a minority opinion, but I do think it's a minority movement.

That is, I think the bulk of people who are dissatisfied with the endings simply aren't going out of their way to aggressively push for a change, either because they don't expect it will do any good, because they're against the idea on principle, or simply because it isn't that big a deal to them.

[Shallyah]

Put it as you like, I've never seen a backlash like this in the history of gaming. Perhaps because I had never really cared before about any other game as I do about Mass Effect, but that has to mean something, and Bioware knows it.

Whatever each intellectual wannabe expert in stadistic and mathematcis wants to claim here about how much or how little it matters is all cool, but even Jessica Merizan mentioned in Twitter that they're following closely the poll results and gathering all the constructive feedback from the community to make things better.