219 réponses à ce sujet

[Annora]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I can make up lists of people that hate the ending. 

Of course, that's absolutely meaningless, so why would I? Do you have *variable* 70,000 others to balance the scales? 

No. I was pointing out that not everyone experiences the same overwhelming hate for the ending. I only personally know 2 people who were not okay with how the series ended, and one of those two was not a paying customer. And to reiterate, not everyone hates the ending.

I am not a paid schill for BioWare, either. I wish I was, god could I use the extra cash right now, but I am not. I liked it, most of my friends and family liked it, and those who did not are incredibly irritating about that fact. I had to stop talking to them because everything they said to me was an attempt to sway my opinion toward theirs, to validate their hatred of something I quite enjoyed, and I was sick of it. It's just as annoying as someone coming to my door and trying to convert me to Mormonism.

[Shallyah]

I'd argue the result was

50k against
5k for
approximately 1,000,000 choose not to choose

Wrong. Approx 1 million don't know these polls even exist and are disgusted in silence.

Get your facts straight.

[smegmalongbeach]

maybe not a minority of forum posters but deffinatley a band wagon not a movement

[parrmi22]

The MOVEMENT is a minority. I'd say the majority of people hate the endings. Most of them are pissed for a day or so then move on.

[Talogrungi]

wryterra wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

The silent majority can never be relied upon to give any meaningful statistics. The %'s we're seeing from those who -did- vote is pretty overwhelming.

But regardless, let's ignore the %s and the minority/majority situation and look at the raw numbers.

Let's be conservative and say that Bioware is planning about $25's worth of DLC for ME3. (ME2's came to about $45 or something? .. not entirely sure).

Now let's look at those ~50,000 people. Let's be pessimistic and guestimate that only half of them are willing to stand by their principles and not purchase any DLC not relating to the ending.

$625,000 in lost DLC sales incentive enough to take this movement seriously?
Lost revenue from the MP equipment packs?
Add on the potential lost sales from future releases?
And the potential lost ME3 sales due to the bad press/fan reaction?

Now ask yourself; is that something that you as a business would ignore?

Put this in context. BioWare have a fanbase with a history of screaming "Pre-order cancelled! I will never buy-BioWare again!" and then buying whatever they make anyway. That's happened time and time again. 

I'd say that changes things.

And when was the last time tens of thousands of people went to anywhere close to these lengths to emphasise their collective disappointment?

[Shallyah]

parrmi22 wrote...

The MOVEMENT is a minority. I'd say the majority of people hate the endings. Most of them are pissed for a day or so then move on.

Yes, and that is the worst. Because if a person buys bread in a bakery and the bread is bad they can do two things.

1. Confront the baker about it.
2. Not care enough to make an issue out of it and go to another bakery next time.


If you confront the baker, he may or may not take compromise to improve the bread for you next time. But you gave him the opportunity to not lose you, and everyone else that think like you but did not care enough to confront him as customers. Nobody keeps buying bad bread even if they do not care enough to pay much mind to it.

Modifié par Shallyah, 19 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[TekFanX]

Shallyah wrote...

I'd argue the result was

50k against
5k for
approximately 1,000,000 choose not to choose

Wrong. Approx 1 million don't know these polls even exist and are disgusted in silence.

Get your facts straight.

Wasn't 1.5kk the number that was shipped?

I remember reading something like that.

So I'd say the polls are accurate.
Some of the polls are also placed on sites that are frequently visited by gamers and many players don't mind a click.

[Bode GodSend]

Okay, I gonna post this link here:
http://en.wikipedia..../Selection_bias
Read it before trying to argue that the polls actually represent all the people that bough the game.
That being said, I dont think the people that disliked the ending are such a minority. What we should consider is that most people that disliked the ending stoped caring after the credits rolled. In that sense, the people that are demanding a better ending are a minority, because most gamers dont even finish most games they buy, let alone make foruns posts and polls about how much they disliked the endings.

[Shallyah]

TekFanX wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

I'd argue the result was

50k against
5k for
approximately 1,000,000 choose not to choose

Wrong. Approx 1 million don't know these polls even exist and are disgusted in silence.

Get your facts straight.

Wasn't 1.5kk the number that was shipped?

I remember reading something like that.

So I'd say the polls are accurate.
Some of the polls are also placed on sites that are frequently visited by gamers and many players don't mind a click.

No, not at all. I have 7-8 real life friends who have bought the game and they don't care even to log on the internet. Most of them bought it for PS3 or XBox, and if they visited any site, would be one in their native tongue, definitely not English.

Modifié par Shallyah, 19 mars 2012 - 07:03 .

[Reiella]

HaesoME3 wrote...

http://xkcd.com/552/

Doesn't quite fit, obviously, but amusing all the same given the situation.

And I hate it when they skip common sense. I don't need to know everything to be able to draw a logical conclusion. I wouldn't submit a 'logical conclusion' in a term paper or try to get it published, but quite often I have to draw conclusions with incomplete data with no way of acquiring more accurate/reliable data.

Have you never needed to make a decision with incomplete information? I actually use statistics, I don't read and write about them in a vaccum - making decisions with incomplete information is an important skill, one I often find missing in so many who claim to understand. People like you would sooner say it's impossible to know rather than give an answer with the stipulation that it's not a certainty.

Would you be willing to bet that sampling bias of 50k vs 5k out of a little over a million really puts the dissatisfied as the minority? I'll concede you can't be certain without more data, that's true fair enough - but would you honestly if forced to make the decision with the information at hand try and suggest it's the minority?

I would suggest it is a significant plurality.

Would you be willing to bet that sampling bias of 200k vs 5k for a population puts the satisfied as a minority [ http://bit.ly/uPrYPt ]?

[ edit ah, misviewed your 5k remark as refering to 5k traditional samplings, 178k versus 36k in that case].

Modifié par Reiella, 19 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[wryterra]

TekFanX wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

I'd argue the result was

50k against
5k for
approximately 1,000,000 choose not to choose

Wrong. Approx 1 million don't know these polls even exist and are disgusted in silence.

Get your facts straight.

Wasn't 1.5kk the number that was shipped?

I remember reading something like that.

So I'd say the polls are accurate.
Some of the polls are also placed on sites that are frequently visited by gamers and many players don't mind a click.

Don't fall for 'everyone is like me' logic either. The vast majority don't know these polls exist, I agree with you on that. I disagree that they'd all care even if they did know, however. This 'movement' is made of people who care enough to inform themselves and discover the forums and the polls and who give enough of a damn to do something about it. 

Most people don't care enough to do that. Most people aren't interested in the debate. Most people don't care that there's a poll. That's not to say they like the ending, they just don't care. 

[majormajormmajor]

The defenders of the endings and their lackeys in the media have been trying to paint this as a vocal minority. Yes- a vocal minority of 90% not just on BSN but in polls conducted by IGN

They have failed, the swine

[Shallyah]

Don't fall for 'everyone is like me' logic either. The vast majority don't know these polls exist, I agree with you on that. I disagree that they'd all care even if they did know, however. This 'movement' is made of people who care enough to inform themselves and discover the forums and the polls and who give enough of a damn to do something about it. 


Most people don't care enough to do that. Most people aren't interested in the debate. Most people don't care that there's a poll. That's not to say they like the ending, they just don't care. 

I wouldn't say they don't care, perhaps that they do not care enough to let it take their personal time off other affairs that they may consider more crucial to their lives. This leads to a scenario which has been posted before:

Yes, and that is the worst. Because if a person buys bread in a bakery and the bread is bad they can do two things.

1. Confront the baker about it.
2. Not care enough to make an issue out of it and go to another bakery next time.


If you confront the baker, he may or may not take compromise to improve the bread for you next time. But you gave him the opportunity to not lose you and everyone else that think like you but did not care enough to confront him as customers. Nobody keeps buying bad bread, even if they do not care enough to pay much mind to it.

Modifié par Shallyah, 19 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[Bode GodSend]

majormajormmajor wrote...

The defenders of the endings and their lackeys in the media have been trying to paint this as a vocal minority. Yes- a vocal minority of 90% not just on BSN but in polls conducted by IGN

They have failed, the swine

And this is why those polls are about as useful to gauge gamers opinons as It would be making a poll on a Tea Party meting if Obama should be reelected or not.

[Yttrian]

We are a minority of 98%... wait... what?...

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

You are a minority of a minority.

Most people who play the game never finish it. Take a look at the ME2 statistics. Most people who play the game never come here. Take a look a the forum numbers versus sales. Most people who come to the forums don't care that you weren't happy.

It's not personal, no one hates you as people. Most people just played the game, had fun, and now they're moving on. Shogun 2 Total War's new expansion pack is out this week. That's going to be bad ass!

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Yttrian wrote...

We are a minority of 98%... wait... what?...

That's a bugged poll, you can vote on it multiple times from multiple browsers.  ;-)

[The Night Mammoth]

Anastassia wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I can make up lists of people that hate the ending. 

Of course, that's absolutely meaningless, so why would I? Do you have *variable* 70,000 others to balance the scales? 

No. I was pointing out that not everyone experiences the same overwhelming hate for the ending. I only personally know 2 people who were not okay with how the series ended, and one of those two was not a paying customer. And to reiterate, not everyone hates the ending.

And yet you listed the people who liked the ending as if you were trying to prove some sort of objective fact. 

Which is why it's meaningless. We all know people actually like the ending (as deluded as that is). 

I am not a paid schill for BioWare, either. I wish I was, god could I use the extra cash right now, but I am not. I liked it, most of my friends and family liked it, and those who did not are incredibly irritating about that fact. I had to stop talking to them because everything they said to me was an attempt to sway my opinion toward theirs, to validate their hatred of something I quite enjoyed, and I was sick of it. It's just as annoying as someone coming to my door and trying to convert me to Mormonism.

I can agree with that. There's a line where trying to prove something you believe in becomes extremely irritating. That point is really where it consumes your being, every thought concerns is, every conversation is an argument waiting to happen, the only webpage opened is th forums. 

Don't get me wrong, I despise the ending to this wonderful game with a burning passion, but it certainly doesn't consume my life. 

[Yttrian]

Bode GodSend wrote...

And this is why those polls are about as useful to gauge gamers opinons as It would be making a poll on a Tea Party meting if Obama should be reelected or not.

People who like the endings also vote and post with the same tenacity.

The statistics show supporters as the vocal minority; and rather damningly so, not just from this site.

Modifié par Yttrian, 19 mars 2012 - 07:30 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Bode GodSend wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

The defenders of the endings and their lackeys in the media have been trying to paint this as a vocal minority. Yes- a vocal minority of 90% not just on BSN but in polls conducted by IGN

They have failed, the swine

And this is why those polls are about as useful to gauge gamers opinons as It would be making a poll on a Tea Party meting if Obama should be reelected or not.

Not really. The poll is open with negligible sample bias. A Tea Party meeting will only have Tea Party members, the forums don't have that bias. Failed analogy.

The IGN poll is a whole lot more reliable considering it's hosted by a website who have vocally come out against changing the ending and have an influx of pretty much every type of gamer just looking for news. 

[Phaedra Sanguine]

Fact is, way over a million people have not voiced their opinion. On one side you have the whiny people attempting to speak for them, because it helps their cause. On the other hand, you have no idea what these people actually think. So, you take what you have and make the rest up. Because everyone on the Internet is a statics expert.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Not really. The poll is open with negligible sample bias. A Tea Party meeting will only have Tea Party members, the forums don't have that bias. Failed analogy.

The IGN poll is a whole lot more reliable considering it's hosted by a website who have vocally come out against changing the ending and have an influx of pretty much every type of gamer just looking for news. 

The only people who vote on voluntary polls are people who want to pick a specific choice.  For the poll to have any reliability, you would have to an even sample of all the ME3 players, including one who could give two craps about playing on the forums.  Otherwise, all you're seeing are how many clicked were clacked on that poll.  Proxies, new browsers, clearing cookies... any of those tricks can work to inflate blind, voluntary polls.

[Elite Midget]

Moondoggie wrote...

FarynUEA wrote...

Its because people assume that the silent majority automaticly likes the Ending ... which cant be proven ...

But fact is ... we have 42k people ...

42k compared to the overall games sales is a minority of the people who bought the game.

There has been no real proof that any majority dislikes something only internet polls that are not done fairly since there is no control over how many times you can vote and no way to look at demographics of people who dislike something.

I've yet to see any evidence that makes it look like a very noisy minority claiming to represent every single person who played the game. Generally people just pull any statistic that supports their claims while dismissing others claims or paronising them for diagreeing with their view.

I'm guessing you haven't been going to youtube or facebook in the last couple of days. 200k view vids everywhere that are trashing the ME3 ending and getting a 90-99% like rate. It isn't the minority, the movement is just seperated all over the net. If all were gathered than the numbers would be even more loopsided in anger over the ending.

[Kulthar Drax]

Anastassia wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I can make up lists of people that hate the ending. 

Of course, that's absolutely meaningless, so why would I? Do you have *variable* 70,000 others to balance the scales? 

No. I was pointing out that not everyone experiences the same overwhelming hate for the ending. I only personally know 2 people who were not okay with how the series ended, and one of those two was not a paying customer. And to reiterate, not everyone hates the ending.

I am not a paid schill for BioWare, either. I wish I was, god could I use the extra cash right now, but I am not. I liked it, most of my friends and family liked it, and those who did not are incredibly irritating about that fact. I had to stop talking to them because everything they said to me was an attempt to sway my opinion toward theirs, to validate their hatred of something I quite enjoyed, and I was sick of it. It's just as annoying as someone coming to my door and trying to convert me to Mormonism.

That's fine, and I am quite happy with you having your own opinion, and everyone is the richer for it. But what I don't quite get is that many of these people who say they like the ending don't actually seem to say why they like the ending. I mean, I get that you liked it, but why did you? Did you not mind the literal deus ex machina? Did you not mind Joker turning coward and fleeing for what appears to be a completely unanswered and nonsensical reason, or your squadmates in the final rush towards the beam magically appearing stranded with Joker at the end? Or even Shepard totally breaking character, or the abject lack of options or player choice.

I mean, I get that you might just chill out and take the ending you're given as an ending and be fine with that, but did you not notice these obvious errors in narrative? Or does it simply not matter to you? Or do you think it all actually made sense? Does the story not matter?  I mean, what's the point of playing an RPG if you don't happen to care about the story or how it flows logically/sensibly etc? You might as well just be playing another Call of Duty game in that case XD

[MassiveEffects]

Neuthung wrote...

 Just had someone reply to me on Twitter saying that it's wrong to change the game over a minority... How can anyone honestly believe this is some small thing unless they haven't kept up to date on what's actually happening?

Labeling a group a "vocal minority" is always a nice and easy way to discredit them.