219 réponses à ce sujet

[Reiella]

Kulthar Drax wrote...

That's fine, and I am quite happy with you having your own opinion, and everyone is the richer for it. But what I don't quite get is that many of these people who say they like the ending don't actually seem to say why they like the ending. I mean, I get that you liked it, but why did you? Did you not mind the literal deus ex machina? Did you not mind Joker turning coward and fleeing for what appears to be a completely unanswered and nonsensical reason, or your squadmates in the final rush towards the beam magically appearing stranded with Joker at the end? Or even Shepard totally breaking character, or the abject lack of options or player choice.

I mean, I get that you might just chill out and take the ending you're given as an ending and be fine with that, but did you not notice these obvious errors in narrative? Or does it simply not matter to you? Or do you think it all actually made sense? Does the story not matter?  I mean, what's the point of playing an RPG if you don't happen to care about the story or how it flows logically/sensibly etc? You might as well just be playing another Call of Duty game in that case XD

Part of the problem with doing so, is it's inviting others to criticize your opinion, and often times it is criticizes while asking for it.  There is a definite slant on the forum traffic supporting the negative view.  There are a number of folks who don't seem to respect the positive view [to be fair, there are those who don't respect the negative as well, but you're less likely to get 'ganged up on' when you're in the majority].

Most of the difference is simply accepting that lack of some answers doesn't break the plot, and they are satisfied with an open ending [I am sure there will be a response that they'd be ok with an open ending if it made sense coming, it's already been stated in this thread :P].  I accept that the ramifications of the ending are that galactic civilization is starting over [from near-scratch] and see it as a sign of hope, instead of a sign of entropy and despair that others have. Doesn't make them wrong mind you, it's just an opinion-take, and there is certainly a good argument that perhaps they trimmed too much exposition to allow for the open ending.

While I probably would have liked the ending better if it just cut to black instead of utilizing the thematic device of Joker's flight, it wasn't a big deal to me.  If I was unhappy with the ending, it probably would have bugged me a lot more though .

[The Night Mammoth]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Not really. The poll is open with negligible sample bias. A Tea Party meeting will only have Tea Party members, the forums don't have that bias. Failed analogy.

The IGN poll is a whole lot more reliable considering it's hosted by a website who have vocally come out against changing the ending and have an influx of pretty much every type of gamer just looking for news. 

The only people who vote on voluntary polls are people who want to pick a specific choice.  For the poll to have any reliability, you would have to an even sample of all the ME3 players, including one who could give two craps about playing on the forums.  Otherwise, all you're seeing are how many clicked were clacked on that poll.  Proxies, new browsers, clearing cookies... any of those tricks can work to inflate blind, voluntary polls.

Which is why I've said multiple times in this thread and others that the poll has one flaw; sampling bias.

That still isn't a reason to invalidate the whole thing. The numbers AND consensus AND how open it is to anyone who wishes to view it lends credence to is being an indicator. Not a definitive indicator, but an indicator nonetheless.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 19 mars 2012 - 08:04 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Which is why I've said multiple times in this thread and others that the poll has one flaw; sampling bias.

That still isn't a reason to invalidate the whole thing. The numbers AND consensus AND how open it is to anyone who wishes to view it lends credence to is being an indicator. Not a definitive indicator, but an indicator nonetheless.

That's a fair point... but for me, it's just not good enough to demonstrate anything more than a subset of the forum users (themselves a subset of overall players) want different endings.  That's it.

[Shalewind]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

You are a minority of a minority.

Most people who play the game never finish it. Take a look at the ME2 statistics. Most people who play the game never come here. Take a look a the forum numbers versus sales. Most people who come to the forums don't care that you weren't happy.

It would be incorrect to call us a minority or a majority. Just as it's incorrect to say that the supporters of the ending are a majority or a minority. There isn't a good random sample thus NO statistic is vaild - including labeling the dislikes a minority because in truth you have no idea of the value. It could be 2% it could be 95% - you flat don't know.

What is significgant is that our 50,000 supporters DOES impact Bioware and the game sales. Because our reviews, our voice, our coverage has a negative impact. Minority / Majority - it doesn't matter.

[Cypher333]

just don't listen to the enemy propaganda and hold the line

[charon45]

Paxcorpus wrote...

Fact is, way over a million people have not voiced their opinion. On one side you have the whiny people attempting to speak for them, because it helps their cause. On the other hand, you have no idea what these people actually think. So, you take what you have and make the rest up. Because everyone on the Internet is a statics expert.

It would be a mistake to take the BSN poll as scientific.  It would be a MUCH bigger mistake to take the lopsided results over every poll on the subject as meaningless because there are 1 million people who haven't voted.  All of the data avaiable suggests that more people dislike the ending than like it.  Potential sampling errors are not proof of results contrary to the findings. 

[Bode GodSend]

charon45 wrote...

Paxcorpus wrote...

Fact is, way over a million people have not voiced their opinion. On one side you have the whiny people attempting to speak for them, because it helps their cause. On the other hand, you have no idea what these people actually think. So, you take what you have and make the rest up. Because everyone on the Internet is a statics expert.

It would be a mistake to take the BSN poll as scientific.  It would be a MUCH bigger mistake to take the lopsided results over every poll on the subject as meaningless because there are 1 million people who haven't voted.  All of the data avaiable suggests that more people dislike the ending than like it.  Potential sampling errors are not proof of results contrary to the findings. 

I agree, and I also think that most people didnt like the ending ( I myself included, but I love the overal game), but it is delusional to think that the people from the retake mass effect are anything other than a vocal minority.
 Probably the majority disliked the ending, but they moved on to other things. The people you see on the Bioware  forums are probably the only ones that want the new endings, because most people dont care.

[d1st4nt]

FarynUEA wrote...

Its because people assume that the silent majority automaticly likes the Ending ... which cant be proven ...

But fact is ... we have 42k people ...

You do, but you have to take notice that 42k is a miniscule fraction of the total copies sold.

So yes, for all intents and purposes, everyone posting how upset they are do make up the minority.  And as was stated earlier... the awful thing about PR work is the statistics are hardly ever broken down to "Liked/Didn't Like/Haven't Heard From"... so it's assumed the silent masses are ok with the ending.  Or at least, not upset enough to post/sign a petition/etc about it.

And truth be told, they're most likely right... the majority of the people that have played this game may be ok with the endings - Gamers usually aren't quiet when they're upset

Modifié par d1st4nt, 19 mars 2012 - 11:22 .

[Navasha]

All "movements" are by definition a minority. 25% of any given population will always take one side, 25% will always take the other, 30% in the middle don't care enough to get involved, leaving just 20% left to be swayed one way or another.

So at most any movement will never have more than about 45% of the entire population.

[Bode GodSend]

Navasha wrote...

All "movements" are by definition a minority. 25% of any given population will always take one side, 25% will always take the other, 30% in the middle don't care enough to get involved, leaving just 20% left to be swayed one way or another.

So at most any movement will never have more than about 45% of the entire population.

Also dont forget that 63% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

More on topic, I just like to remind people that CoD: black ops got voted as a best ending of all time on a online poll by guiness, proving that online polls dont mean anything and the majority of gamers dont have any idea of what a good ending would be.

[HenchxNarf]

saracen16 wrote...

Because it's BioWare's work, not yours.

+1

[charon45]

d1st4nt wrote...


You do, but you have to take notice that 42k is a miniscule fraction of the total copies sold.

So yes, for all intents and purposes, everyone posting how upset they are do make up the minority.  And as was stated earlier... the awful thing about PR work is the statistics are hardly ever broken down to "Liked/Didn't Like/Haven't Heard From"... so it's assumed the silent masses are ok with the ending.  Or at least, not upset enough to post/sign a petition/etc about it.

And truth be told, they're most likely right... the majority of the people that have played this game may be ok with the endings - Gamers usually aren't quiet when they're upset

In terms of practicality, you can never get opinions from everyone with a population over 1 million.  By that standard, you could never know how any form of media was recieved.  Any professional who used that line of reasoning should lose their job. 

[BlueberrieEQ]

people want to live in their fairytale worlds where unicorns poop rainbows. they dont want to believe that most people hate the ending.

[granyte]

get more people to vote here and we will have numbers to deal with

http://social.biowar...8&poll_id=30035

[Setz]

Shalewind wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

You are a minority of a minority.

Most people who play the game never finish it. Take a look at the ME2 statistics. Most people who play the game never come here. Take a look a the forum numbers versus sales. Most people who come to the forums don't care that you weren't happy.

It would be incorrect to call us a minority or a majority. Just as it's incorrect to say that the supporters of the ending are a majority or a minority. There isn't a good random sample thus NO statistic is vaild - including labeling the dislikes a minority because in truth you have no idea of the value. It could be 2% it could be 95% - you flat don't know.

What is significgant is that our 50,000 supporters DOES impact Bioware and the game sales. Because our reviews, our voice, our coverage has a negative impact. Minority / Majority - it doesn't matter.

You have 50,000.

www.joystiq.com/2012/03/09/mass-effect-ships-3-5-million-worldwide-890-000-sold-in-na-swt/

ME3 sold 3.5 million. If even a 1/8 of those players liked the ending, they're still WAY more than the numbers you have. Just because your the most vocal, doesn't make you a majority. The fact is, the people who AREN'T posting, probably just finished the game, went huh. That wasn't what I was expecting, and went on with their lives.

[Bode GodSend]

Setz wrote...

Shalewind wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

You are a minority of a minority.

Most people who play the game never finish it. Take a look at the ME2 statistics. Most people who play the game never come here. Take a look a the forum numbers versus sales. Most people who come to the forums don't care that you weren't happy.

It would be incorrect to call us a minority or a majority. Just as it's incorrect to say that the supporters of the ending are a majority or a minority. There isn't a good random sample thus NO statistic is vaild - including labeling the dislikes a minority because in truth you have no idea of the value. It could be 2% it could be 95% - you flat don't know.

What is significgant is that our 50,000 supporters DOES impact Bioware and the game sales. Because our reviews, our voice, our coverage has a negative impact. Minority / Majority - it doesn't matter.

You have 50,000.

www.joystiq.com/2012/03/09/mass-effect-ships-3-5-million-worldwide-890-000-sold-in-na-swt/

ME3 sold 3.5 million. If even a 1/8 of those players liked the ending, they're still WAY more than the numbers you have. Just because your the most vocal, doesn't make you a majority. The fact is, the people who AREN'T posting, probably just finished the game, went huh. That wasn't what I was expecting, and went on with their lives.

Is useless,  the Retake Mass Effect "movent" is almost like a cult at this point, comon sense and facts dont mean anything, they are 100% correct and everyone who disagres is either a mindless fanboy or just stupid.

For the record, i was realy disapointed by the ending, i was expecting a fallout slideshow kinda of thing teling of what happened after the game, but honestly, all this backlash and vitriol aimed at bioware is making me like the ending more. If this goes on I may actually love the ending by the end of the month.

[magikbbg]

We never were, media forms tend to down play movements against the status quo. When people dont care enough to say something that doesn't mean they liked it or disliked it, so you can't count them into whole. - We got a message from Ray Kroc recently - If we really were a minority they would've never addressed us directly.

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ 

reminds me of politics and how ronpaul's movement is just a vocal-minority. i hate that you can't get decent objective news anymore without searching in the deep depths of the internet.

Modifié par magikbbg, 21 mars 2012 - 03:49 .

[Shared]

You know what, you can even say screw the poles. Look at the profiles of the people that are complaining, ask them how many DLCs they have baught. How many preordered the game? How many got CE? What type of people is this? Because if you want to commit coroprate suicide you alienate your core fans. The customers you always can count on to buy what you make. And if you do good they will basically sell 5 more copies for you (i know i did for DA:O, ME, ME2). They are free advertising. They are your lifeline. No company ever survives in the long run withouth loyal customers. If you always have to rely on new customers you are doomed to fail.

Not to mention, the one customer likely to fork upp the money and accept buying DLC contet are the core fans. New customers might not have the intrest to bother. I would actually like to see the sales numbers for DLC content over the years for their games. Im willing to bet it is somewhere between 50 and 150 000 sales per DLC for their great games. That is basically the ones complaining now, the ones that feel betrayed.

So what does this ultimatly mean you say? Well on DA:O i spent i think almost 200 dollars. On DA2 (yes i liked it) i spent the same. On ME there wasnt as much but still 150. ME2 probably 250. ME 3 i went for digital edition and the DLC (cause i couldnt be bothered to wait for march 9th when i could start playing it the 6th). Now the average gamer will buy the game, 40-50 dollars. The core fans however are likely to fork upp 3-4 times this amount. If we say bioware has 100 000 loyal fans (asuming the poll keeps growing) they will equal almost 400 000 normal customers in revenue. now suddenly what you are doing is alienating 1/3 of your revenue if you just go from the polls, and only thoose feel that way. That is not going to work in the long run. Also you dont only alienate them from this game, but from any new title.

I know this is one long post but ill sum it upp. Core fan=3-4 times the revenue of a new customer. Free advertising, lets say they recruit 2 people each, which means theyre worth 5-6 times the revenue of a normal gamer. And they are reliable. So even if by some longshot only the core fans are in dislike of the ending, and its just about 100 000. they equal 5-600 000 customers in revenue.

[JulienJaden]

It's fact that the polls here on BSN leave nothing to the imagination. And, as polls go, the percentages are representative of what the rest of the planet thinks. We have people from all over the world voting and giving their input. From what I hear from other forums, YouTube, Twitter and Facebook, most people who played ME3 hate the ending.

We are making valid points and offering constructive criticism. The number of magazines that have any kind of reputation at all and support our claim is rising constantly.

We can absolutely win this.

[JulienJaden]

Shared wrote...

You know what, you can even say screw the poles. Look at the profiles of the people that are complaining, ask them how many DLCs they have baught. How many preordered the game? How many got CE? What type of people is this? Because if you want to commit coroprate suicide you alienate your core fans. The customers you always can count on to buy what you make. And if you do good they will basically sell 5 more copies for you (i know i did for DA:O, ME, ME2). They are free advertising. They are your lifeline. No company ever survives in the long run withouth loyal customers. If you always have to rely on new customers you are doomed to fail.

Not to mention, the one customer likely to fork upp the money and accept buying DLC contet are the core fans. New customers might not have the intrest to bother. I would actually like to see the sales numbers for DLC content over the years for their games. Im willing to bet it is somewhere between 50 and 150 000 sales per DLC for their great games. That is basically the ones complaining now, the ones that feel betrayed.

So what does this ultimatly mean you say? Well on DA:O i spent i think almost 200 dollars. On DA2 (yes i liked it) i spent the same. On ME there wasnt as much but still 150. ME2 probably 250. ME 3 i went for digital edition and the DLC (cause i couldnt be bothered to wait for march 9th when i could start playing it the 6th). Now the average gamer will buy the game, 40-50 dollars. The core fans however are likely to fork upp 3-4 times this amount. If we say bioware has 100 000 loyal fans (asuming the poll keeps growing) they will equal almost 400 000 normal customers in revenue. now suddenly what you are doing is alienating 1/3 of your revenue if you just go from the polls, and only thoose feel that way. That is not going to work in the long run. Also you dont only alienate them from this game, but from any new title.

I know this is one long post but ill sum it upp. Core fan=3-4 times the revenue of a new customer. Free advertising, lets say they recruit 2 people each, which means theyre worth 5-6 times the revenue of a normal gamer. And they are reliable. So even if by some longshot only the core fans are in dislike of the ending, and its just about 100 000. they equal 5-600 000 customers in revenue.

And this.