162 réponses à ce sujet

[Farbautisonn]

apoc_reg wrote...

Another all or nothing "your game ruubbish/your games amazing thread title", I'm sure this constructive and detailed critique is really going to help improve the developers ideas in the future

-Considering how much they paid attention to us since DA2 why should we even bother with detailed critique?

[RazzyBoyRo]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's just a bad ending. It doesn't make the rest of the game bad.

it does when the only thing that sticks with you after finishing the game is that god awful ending.

[accessd]

DA2 was a really bad game compared to BioWare standards. Swtor and ME3 however are good games despite some flaws (swtor: mmo and not a singleplayer, me3: ending).

[DaJe]

TGraptor wrote...

some people like DA2, some dont
some people like SWToR, some dont
some people like ME3, some dont
some people like eating snails, some dont

opinions, gotta love em

Some people like Uwe Boll movies.

What's your point?

[KDD-0063]

Thing is, there are clearly major problems with all four games talked about here, and we can't deny them.

SWTOR:
At the time when vanilla WoW came out, it was a time when MMOs usually release 30% completed, including WoW--it was awfully buggy, extremely imbalanced, etc. WoW, however, survived and got developed to a very high completion percentage, mainly because of Blizzard reputation, and because it was better than most MMOs at the time.
Releasing MMOs completed and fully polished is very costly. However, since there is wow, a very completed game now, MMOs can no longer release at a low completion rate. I'd say SWTOR released like 60% to 70% complete, and didn't do them any good. People's expectations are very high.
I also think catering to casual players this early is a bad move. MMO in its early stage needs strong, coherent community that 'glue' the other players together. And if the hardcore players beat all content in a week and never come online again, the community can never form.

DA: A
To be honest I think this thing is the worst of the four. It's filled with characters, scenes and places we don't really care about after completing the game. In this sense it's even worse than DA2, and is probably as bad as NWN: OC minus Aribeth. It was clearly rushed, it has two major story choices that I didn't really care. ME3's ending is silly, but at least I cared a bit.

DA2:
I don't really care about the overused maps. DA2 has more problems than that. It's storyline is okay, but with all the one-dimensional characters: especially Anders, Merrill and Sebastian and to an extent, Fenris. I'm okay with Isabela and Varric; still, not comparable to great characters in DA: O; dialogues which tell you that 'there is no choice' in your face, plus issues like subjective sexuality, the immersion breaks too easily.

ME3:
It's overall good, but not as good as expectation. I can't comment much on the ending, however. I never care much about a game's ending myself and I was OK with NWN2: OC and Kotor2's endings (they both have endings that are not well written; the former is justified and explained in the expansion pack Mask of the Betrayer). Actually the ending is silly enough for me to forget about it.

The big problem is from DA2, to SWTOR to ME3's style, I fear Bioware is going the wrong direction in story writing and dialogues. Especially since in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7BEMgTOip8 Stephen Reid talked about dialogue wheel becoming a defining feature of Bioware games.

In fact I much prefer the dialogue style of:
Kotor, Kotor 2, NWN2, and DAO.
Personally I don't think full voice over is necessary. I actually think in terms of voice over, NWN2's dialogue style is more than enough. Major plot, major characters and relatively important side quests are mostly voiced, while minor characters such as shops or random city guards are not.

I think many of us would share similar views.

Putting the dialogue wheel aside, ME1 and ME2 is not bad: even though Garrus is constantly calibrating, Miranda always has work to do and Legion is always building consensus, they are not constantly saying hello to Shepard.

However, DA2, SWTOR and ME3's dialogue style truly has me worried. While having a squad that we care about, we love or we hate, we can only talk to them at specific times? Even if they are not busy? This somewhat breaks immersion, and makes us think that the devs are lazy, and I think many fans don't like this style, including myself.

Ever wonder why there are flirt mods for Baldur's Gate trilogy and NWN2? People love to check up on the characters, especially romancable characters to see if there's progression, even if progression can only happen at specific times.

Modifié par KDD-0063, 20 mars 2012 - 11:32 .

[AkiKishi]

0 and 2 for me I never bothered with TOR.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 20 mars 2012 - 12:34 .

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

dreman9999 wrote...
It's just a bad ending. It doesn't make the rest of the game bad.

It makes the whole trilogy bad actually if you were playing for the story.
Heavy rain did a better job giving you choices.

[AlexMBrennan]

Including SWTOR isn't really fair - it's aimed at a completely different demographic.

When I bought SWTOR, I had very strongly suspected that an MMORPG is fundamentally incompatible with Bioware's style - since people are paying a monthly fee, the development priority will be to pad game-play time rather than make high quality content*. Which, I suppose, demonstrates why you shouldn't ask game salespeople whether or not you should buy a game.
[Seriously - Ilum dailies involve 30min of crate collection to get PVP gear... mostly because the PVP objective doesn't work because you're either outnumbered and unable to get kills, or outnumber the enemy, in which case they'll leave]

Personally, I don't think the game itself is fun as such but relies exclusively on quest rewards/XP/drops to keep people playing. Maybe it's better if you enjoy raids with other people but given the player drain that's not really an option.

Edit to add:
*If we paid authors by the length of their books they'd just contrive a way to include the phone book of Beijing.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 20 mars 2012 - 12:37 .

[TUHD]

ME3 98% was great, but then the ending comes along
DA2 was bad to mediocre, still regret I bought that POC.
TOR presumed to be different then other MMORPGs, it so totally is not besides VA and way of crafting.

1/3

Modifié par TUHD, 20 mars 2012 - 12:53 .

[Xerorei]

Grellow wrote...

Whole Particle wrote...

I understand the criticism for DA2 and ME3, which game was the third?

SWTOR.

Apparently.

Personally I don't hate it, but I can understand why people do.

I wasted eighty bucks on that game, I didn't even play it a full three months, by the time Feburary 20th rolled around I had quit playing a week before that renewal date, they sent me a questionaire/why did you leave? email, I'm sure they did not like the response.

All in all I am comfortable saying THIS BioWare is not the BioWare I bought Jade Empire from and loved to death so much that I still play it. Companies grow and change, not always for the better.

I compare it to the (de)evolution of Need for Speed, from what it was to now just an overhyped, badly coded, (and if you count the run, horribly physics engined) mess that gets pushed out every year by Blackbox (Ea's in house studio), and dumped the next year for the next "Exciting" version of cops and robbers on wheels.

Sadly I think BioWare's going the same path, apparently they want the CoD crowd more than the RPG crowd.
I suppsoe they were hoping the RPG crowd would go for SWTOR but that's a carbon copy fantasy mmorpg...that uses the term mmorpg loosely due to it being a single player rpg with the "tag" of being mass multiplayer.

And don't get me started on what they did to Scoundrel/Operative, I love stealth classes, I love my operative, or rather I did love it until they made every other class seem like superman in comparison to it.

Also not a fan of doing a "Daily" series for one planet that costs me 2 hours, then turning around and doing it again on another planet to get commendations to get pvp gear that doesn't even work with my primary class stats.

Modifié par Xerorei, 20 mars 2012 - 12:57 .

[Getorex]

corporal doody wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's just a bad ending. It doesn't make the rest of the game bad.

this. 


i dont have a pc that can handle SWTOR...but if it was made AVAILABLE for the xbox360..i would play it.

awakening wasnt bad...DAII however......terrible...but i still consider it a isolated incident.

ME3's only MAJOR issue  was  the "ending" or lack thereof. Everything else was forgivable....cuz the game was EPIC!! one of the best games i have ever played. 

the bad ending doesnt mean it is a bad game...just means for one reason or another we were given a bad ending.

So for you the game is a bright, shiny object and you like bright shiny objects.  The STORY is irrelevant, in the end, when you come right down to it right?  That IS what you are saying because the ending destroys the STORY.  There is zero point in replaying the game.  Zero point to running a different Shepard through.  They all end up dead and the galaxy is wrecked...BEST CASE.  All your decisions, actions, totally irrelevant.  All of them nullified by the ending so why make any decisions or take any actions?  Once was enough because of the ending (singular...they are all the same).  There is no carrot here, just stick.  

EMS?  Pointless.  Galactic readiness rating?  Empty and pointless.  Friends/allies?  Irrelevant.  Resolve the Geth/Quarian issue in any one of 3 ways?  They all add up to same thing: bupkis.  Save or kill the Rachni queen?  Meh.  No diff.  Cure or fake out the Krogan wrt the genophage?  Irrelevant.  Save or destroy the Collector base in ME2?  No diff.  ALL your choices get funneled down to one, single ending:  YOU'RE DEAD.  No replay value whatsoever, including for ME1 and 2.  Why?  Sure they were fun at the time...before you knew it was all a waste and irrelevant.  You thought your decisions back then would actually carry through and give you an interesting and unique ending.  Now we all know better so those two games have lost all value.  

ME3 sucks because of the ending.  I was loving the game until I got to the end and then...ruined game and ruined series.  I'll never play ANY of them again AND I returned my copy of Mass Effect 3 and exchanged it for something else - a non-Bioware title.  They don't get my money anymore.

[Getorex]

DaJe wrote...

TGraptor wrote...

some people like DA2, some dont
some people like SWToR, some dont
some people like ME3, some dont
some people like eating snails, some dont

opinions, gotta love em

Some people like Uwe Boll movies.

What's your point?

Wait...some people like Uwe Boll movies?  Who?!  Point them out!  I want to know what guy is responsible!

I wll fix part of the above empty list so it represents reality:

some people like ME3, most don't because of the ending. 

[Getorex]

You know...referring to Ewe Boll...at this point, with the way Bioware has destroyed the Mass Effect franchise (the California Literature Review says, "Bioware commits storytelling suicide" in ref to the Mass Effect 3 ending), they may as well hand the movie rights to Ewe Boll. He could not possibly do the series any more injustice than Hudson and Bioware have.

[Gravbh]

Getorex wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's just a bad ending. It doesn't make the rest of the game bad.

this. 


i dont have a pc that can handle SWTOR...but if it was made AVAILABLE for the xbox360..i would play it.

awakening wasnt bad...DAII however......terrible...but i still consider it a isolated incident.

ME3's only MAJOR issue  was  the "ending" or lack thereof. Everything else was forgivable....cuz the game was EPIC!! one of the best games i have ever played. 

the bad ending doesnt mean it is a bad game...just means for one reason or another we were given a bad ending.

So for you the game is a bright, shiny object and you like bright shiny objects.  The STORY is irrelevant, in the end, when you come right down to it right?  That IS what you are saying because the ending destroys the STORY.  There is zero point in replaying the game.  Zero point to running a different Shepard through.  They all end up dead and the galaxy is wrecked...BEST CASE.  All your decisions, actions, totally irrelevant.  All of them nullified by the ending so why make any decisions or take any actions?  Once was enough because of the ending (singular...they are all the same).  There is no carrot here, just stick.  

EMS?  Pointless.  Galactic readiness rating?  Empty and pointless.  Friends/allies?  Irrelevant.  Resolve the Geth/Quarian issue in any one of 3 ways?  They all add up to same thing: bupkis.  Save or kill the Rachni queen?  Meh.  No diff.  Cure or fake out the Krogan wrt the genophage?  Irrelevant.  Save or destroy the Collector base in ME2?  No diff.  ALL your choices get funneled down to one, single ending:  YOU'RE DEAD.  No replay value whatsoever, including for ME1 and 2.  Why?  Sure they were fun at the time...before you knew it was all a waste and irrelevant.  You thought your decisions back then would actually carry through and give you an interesting and unique ending.  Now we all know better so those two games have lost all value.  

ME3 sucks because of the ending.  I was loving the game until I got to the end and then...ruined game and ruined series.  I'll never play ANY of them again AND I returned my copy of Mass Effect 3 and exchanged it for something else - a non-Bioware title.  They don't get my money anymore.

or maybe, just maybe, some people don't think the ending destroyed the entire series? Opinions, gotta love em.

[SalsaDMA]

VolusvsReaper wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

VolusvsReaper wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

There is nothing really wrong with SWTOR, most of the complaints seem to be the same, it wasnt KOTOR3, it wasnt SWG2, it wasnt bold enough, its actually a pretty good MMO for as young as it is, one of the best actually, its still an MMO though, if you dont like MMO's, you wont like SWTOR.

It's a hell of a lot better than the current World of Warcrap

I disagree.

Now don't asume I love Blizzard or WoW, cause I don't. Blizzard is actually on my list of companies I don't bother with anymore because of some of their decisions concerning business strategies and WoW, but that doesn't mean I can't objectively gauge the product called WoW.

ToR is basicly WoW in space. Heck playing a Sith warrior tank was practically like I was playing my old WoW warrior tank. Same mechanics, same abilities, even same ability names in some places...
the difference could really be summed up as:

+ for ToR:
+ better single player narrative (albeit also totally linear)
+ better display of loot on corpses and area loot option
+ companions
+ light sabers

+for WoW:
+ stable (never had a BSoD in WoW, record for ToR was a dozen in one day)
+ design flaws and bugs are usually not gamebreaking (ToR had plenty of those)
+ Controls are more responsive, leading to a better PvP "feel" (ToR was very unrespsonisve, and sometimes deflect/parry animations breaks your abiloity usage, meaning you have little control over actually firing off an ability you told the interface you wanted to use)
+ Addons allow you to customize your interface and gaming experience (I continually missed addons in ToR)
+ An auction house you can actually use decently (ToRs was just horrible, and coupled with the window to it shutting down if a companion came back from a mission could be teeth-grating)
+ Good support that was flexible in its dealings with customers to ensure customers got their issues resolved (ToR support seemed like a bunch of people that hit the copy/paste button instead of trying to deal with the issue, and since every reply was dealt with by a different person, you'd get the same response AGAIN when you replied to their mail telling them why their response didn't work)

All in all, I would say WoW is the better product. I don't like Blizzard, but I admit the product is still superior to most stuff on the market today, especially ToR which is just in a horrible condition at the moment.

You never raided frequently did you? Because the whole "Design Flaws" happened all the time on that game...there was always something game breaking in a raid that took tons of patches to fix....their customer support was horrendeous...thank god my account never got hacked because they would keep people on the phone for hours.

I was guildmaster in a raidguild in WoW, so I did try to raid, thank you While our guild was  a mixture of casual and hardcore in attention to play (when I was in the game, things could have changed since I left), it meant that our progress on 25 man raiding was mostly restricted to normal mode stuff while we were doing more progressive stuff in 10-mans where we could have a dedicated "a-team".

The bugs and stuff I encountered in WoW is minor compared to the bugs and stuff I've experienced in ToR, and I didn't even manage to raid yet in ToR, cause I was waiting at level 50 for the rest of the guild I was in to catch up. (from reading the raid forums while I mentally prepped, though, it appeared that the raiding part of ToR was just as bugged as the rest of the game, though, with well-known encounter breaking bugs neither being noted on the 'known issues page' nor being dealt with in patches)

As for support, WoWs support was flawless as far as I was concerned. I even lost a token at one point and had to get my account reassigned to a new token (I didn't dare having an account without a token while holding the office of guildmaster in my guild) which were dealt with swiflty and aptly by their support. On the flip side, ToRs security questino system flunked hard on me, asking me a questino I hadn't set, locking down my account and support never gave me any real help in trying to get access to it, aside from a minor trick in unlocking the account to try again with different answers on the security question I had never set. One thing that struck me especially when dealing with support of ToR, was that even when replaying to a mail from them, your reply got issued a NEW ticket number, and a NEW person to deal with, causing replies form support to be a stream of basicly the same reply all the time because there was no real communication with any specific individuals. With WoW it was clear I was communicating with he same person all the time for a given problem making solving the issue much smoother.

Have you even tried dealing with ToR support? I remember from back when I still read the ToR forums that I wasn't the only one feeling their support was horrible, as there were litterally threads telling Bioware how horrible their support was.

[byzantine horse]

M2>ME3>DA:O>SWTOR>DA2 imo, none of them bad. SWTOR is great for an mmo (for an mmo, aka I just think that MMOs overall are not very good or inspiring. They are time and money sinks and little else, but SWTOR really has delivered several good stories. And yeah, I think that SWTOR is vastly superior to WoW which has no story worth mention and the developers treat their customers as ****.) DA2 was just above average, the last act was just bad and the last bosses over the top. But act 2 was very satisfying. ME3 is absolutely AWESOME except for the ending which imo is perhaps on DA2-level of bad.

Modifié par byzantine horse, 20 mars 2012 - 06:00 .

[jkflipflopDAO]

I thought DA2 was a horribly botched rushjob. It's like they wanted to start out on the "Denerim" section of the game, and have it branch out from there. Like the opposite of DAO.But then EA stepped in when they only had the first city done and said "Release it!".

[SalsaDMA]

byzantine horse wrote...

M2>ME3>DA:O>SWTOR>DA2 imo, none of them bad. SWTOR is great for an mmo (for an mmo, aka I just think that MMOs overall are not very good or inspiring. They are time and money sinks and little else, but SWTOR really has delivered several good stories. And yeah, I think that SWTOR is vastly superior to WoW which has no story worth mention and the developers treat their customers as ****.) DA2 was just above average, the last act was just bad and the last bosses over the top. But act 2 was very satisfying. ME3 is absolutely AWESOME except for the ending which imo is perhaps on DA2-level of bad.

ToR was a better single-player experience than WoW (when it didn't bug out or crash on you), I'll give you that.

But as an MMO experience it was worse.

Part of the problem was inherent in the design of their worlds that fragmentized a faction so much. Especially when trying to play as republic I felt alone most of the time, but even as empire you never really felt you were in a bustling world with lots of people online.

and looking back at it, paying a monthly fee for a single-player game experience is in most regards a waste of time.

[Lawless7225]

I understand Bioware's stance that this was supposed to be Sheppard last story, I even get that if they keep the franchise going you can't top nihlist sentient ships hellbent on wiping out galctic civilization. Anyway the ME universe gets a reset as galactic civilization has to start from scratch in a galaxy that just got much bigger without the relays. If they continue the stories will have,'smaller' consequences. The probably decided that just for ease of moving forward. Thouh I really did want blue babies. Let's see what's next, maybe Liara's dad will get her wish and the asari will build their own relays.

[Descy_]

daftPirate wrote...


Tali's face...meh. I'm not a Tali fan, so I can't really comment on that one.

The fact that they took a stock photo off of the internet and photoshopped it was revolting imo.


They designed how many races that are featured in-game? And they couldn't take the time to deign a in-game shot of a single face of the Quarian race?

[Bobrzy]

AleshCZ wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's just a bad ending. It doesn't make the rest of the game bad.

This. Also, I quite like DA2. Beta of SWTOR seemed quite good, havent follow it after that, whats wrong with it? Awakening was quite good, what bugs the hell out of me is the fact that I cant import my dead Warden withou him being ressurected.

This. To the dot.

[SalsaDMA]

Descy_ wrote...

daftPirate wrote...


Tali's face...meh. I'm not a Tali fan, so I can't really comment on that one.

The fact that they took a stock photo off of the internet and photoshopped it was revolting imo.


They designed how many races that are featured in-game? And they couldn't take the time to deign a in-game shot of a single face of the Quarian race?

I actually felt that one as well as the winterspace thing was nothing less of an insult to the people purchasing their product.

On a related note, how does them obviously using widely available imagery for stuff that in normal cases would be protected by rights? Ie. Since the image they used for Tali is free for everyone to use, how much of a bend can you use that freedom in random material? As I see it, they are opening a veritable can of worms for themselves by this move as I would asume anyone could include "Tali" with picture in their own game/media with EA/Bioware unable to complain about it, courtesy of the original rights of the picture used.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Descy_ wrote...

daftPirate wrote...


Tali's face...meh. I'm not a Tali fan, so I can't really comment on that one.

The fact that they took a stock photo off of the internet and photoshopped it was revolting imo.


They designed how many races that are featured in-game? And they couldn't take the time to deign a in-game shot of a single face of the Quarian race?

It's a three second shot that you get if you do things in a very specific way. Why SHOULD they waste a ton of developer hours on this? Is modifying a stock photo the best option they could have used? Clearly not. Is it something to want to lynch the developers over? CLEARLY not.

[SoloShepard]

I enjoyed DA2. I replayed it twice. The only problem with it was it really wasn't worthy to be called a sequel. If they had marketed it as a full price add-on for DA:O, I think people would have had far fewer objections to it.

[Lycius]

corporal doody wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's just a bad ending. It doesn't make the rest of the game bad.

this. 


i dont have a pc that can handle SWTOR...but if it was made AVAILABLE for the xbox360..i would play it.

awakening wasnt bad...DAII however......terrible...but i still consider it a isolated incident.

ME3's only MAJOR issue  was  the "ending" or lack thereof. Everything else was forgivable....cuz the game was EPIC!! one of the best games i have ever played. 

the bad ending doesnt mean it is a bad game...just means for one reason or another we were given a bad ending.

Normally, I am an advocate of "Your opinion can't technically be wrong because it's an opinion but....read this.

http://calitreview.com/24673