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A logical analysis of why the Indoctrination Theory doesn't work.


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#1
Tsantilas

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Edit: IMPORTANT.  Read the statement by Ray Muzyka, co-founder of BioWare found here: http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ They clearly had no intention of releasing some secret post ending DLC that would complete the story, so I think I can safely say: Indoctrination Theory debunked.  Bad writing.  The end.

I'm sure almost everyone frequently reading these forums is at least aware of the Indoctrination Theory in regards to the ending of Mass Effect 3.  In this post I'll try and present all the arguments that I believe debunk said theory.  As a side note, I am not happy with the current ending, but I accept it for what it is: A badly written, inconsistent, plot hole riden mess.

Moving on.  A quick summary of the main arguments favoring the Indoctrination Theory is that:

1.  During the charge towards the conduit sequence on earth, Shepard is hit by Harbinger's beam and passes out.  At this time, Harbinger attempts to Indoctrinate Shepard and this takes place in a dream sequence where the player tries to break free of the indoctrination attempt by choosing to destroy the Reapers.

2.  The other 2 possible endings control, and synthesis, are traps layed by the reapers and if chosen complete the indoctrination, leading to "bad endings".  The control ending reflect's The Illusive Man's views, and the Synthesis Ending Reflects Saren's views.

3.  Since there are many inconsistencies and plot holes regarding the ending sequence, it's "obvious" that there is something else going on because Bioware wouldn't screw up this badly deliberately.

4.  The child is part of the Indoctrination, as are Shepard's dreams.

5.  Successfuly breaking the Indoctrination, causes Shepard to wake up in London, where he has been all along.

6.  Since this doesn't properly conclude the Mass Effect story, it means that Bioware is holding back some secret "real ending" DLC which they will surprise us with that wraps up the plot in a pretty little bow.

7.  Other arguments include shepard's eyes/scars during the control ending, the fact that Destroy is the only ending that results in Shepard waking up, and that his pistol has infinite ammo during the ending sequence.

Now for the counter arguments:

1.  During the charge towards the conduit sequence on earth, Shepard is hit by Harbinger's beam and passes out.  At this time, Harbinger attempts to Indoctrinate Shepard and this takes place in a dream sequence where the player tries to break free of the indoctrination attempt by choosing to destroy the Reapers.


The established canon of the mass effect series states:

"indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant."

"...there is a balance between control and usefulness. The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become."

"The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time."

There is no mention of dream sequences, or vivid full blown hallucinations.  In addition, Indoctrination isn't a process that can fail.  If the reapers use indoctrination on someone, their way of thinking is altered to follow reaper doctrine.  After a while, the subject becomes a full blown slave who isn't in control of his actions.  The subject never makes a choice to join the reapers, nor does he become tricked.  He simply joins them without knowing he has changed.

As for the black lines on the screen during the TIM conversation, it is explained throughout the game via the Cerberus subplot, that TIM is experimenting on himself with reaper tech so that he can be able to control the reapers.  What he manages to do is reach a point where he's able to exert limited control on people, which is what happens during the conversation.  He tries to control Anderson and Shepard, but ultimately if you make the right decisions you can shoot him or make himsee the error of his ways and commit suicide.  That is the only part in the whole trilogy where Shepard experiences some form of control/indoctrination, and it ends the moment TIM dies.

As such, if Harbinger did use indoctrination on Shepard, we would not have the whole ending sequence.  Shepard would simply become Indoctrinated. 

edit: Not to mention, that Indoctrinating Shepard at this stage of the war serves no purpose.  For all practical purposes, killing him would have the same result, and the reapers will win unless someone else activates the Crucible.

If this isn't enough I will move on to the next point:

2.  The other 2 possible endings control, and synthesis, are traps layed by the reapers and if chosen complete the indoctrination, leading to "bad endings".  The control ending reflect's The Illusive Man's views, and the Synthesis Ending Reflects Saren's views.


I'll ignore that this isn't how indoctrination works for argument's sake, but here we go:

This argument makes a huge assumtion that the Catalyst is lying to Shepard about his intentions.  I will agree that the control and Synthesis endings seem suspicious, but objectively speaking, they are in fact solutions to the reaper threat.  All 3 ending choices result in stopping the cycle one way or another.

If the Starchild is infact an illusion created by Harbinger to fool shepard, then the options provided make no sense from an "evil villain" point of view.  There is no logical reason for Harbinger to give Shepard the option to break out of Indoctrination.  A true villain would simply lie about the destroy ending and make the other 2 options seem much more attractive options, or disregard the destroy option all together in order to trick the hero.

People also argue that the destroy ending is shown as being "bad" because the Starchild tells Shepard that he will destroy all synthetic life, including the geth, and that "even you are partly synthetic".  He never says that Shepard will die, only that his implants will stop working (which may or may not result in his death).  The other 2 endings result in Shepard's certain death, and yet they are supposedly more attractive?  That makes no sense.

3.  Since there are many inconsistencies and plot holes regarding the ending sequence, it's "obvious" that there is something else going on because Bioware wouldn't screw up this badly deliberately.


There are no solid facts either way on this point.  It's a matter of opinion, however Bioware has made official statements that suggest the current ending are all that was planned.  In addition, the Final Hours app also makes similar suggestions.  I'm more inclined to believe what I'm told rather than hoping that it's all a master scheme in order to release a real ending later on.

4.  The child is part of the Indoctrination, as are Shepard's dreams.


Many supporters of the Indoctrination Theory claim that the child isn't real since Shepard is the only person who has interracted with him.  I disagree.  In the opening sequence, it is pretty clear that the shuttle waits for the child to get in before taking off and being blown up by the reaper.  In fact the soldier standing guard is actively looking for enemies at the perimiter until the child gets on, before signalling the pilot to take off with a punch to the door.

The dreams are explained in the game as being a result of Shepard's deteriorating emotional and psychological state.  When creating a new Shepard, the player is able to select a psych history background, but no matter which one the player chooses, it is made clear that the losses and sacrifices are starting to take their toll on Shepard.  In game this manifests itself as nightmares.  Shepard has nightmares at key points during the game whenever an important character dies.  The first one is after the child dies in the beginning, followed by more nightmares after Mordin, and Thane's deaths (in my playthrough at least).  In the dreams Shepard chases after the child but is never able to save him from the flames.  It's clear imagery.  We also see ghosts of the many faceless civilians and soldiers that have died along the way.

5.  Successfuly breaking the Indoctrination, causes Shepard to wake up in London, where he has been all along.


As I mentioned in point 1. above:

"The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time."

During the trilogy, characters who have been indoctrinated are only able to break the grasp for a short moment, usually only long enough to apologizze and commit suicide or be killed.  Saren, Benezia, TIM.  It is established canon that there is no indoctrination "attempt" or "trial".  A Person simply becomes indoctrinated, and once that happens, he does not simply break indoctrination and return to normal through sheer will.  It is a permanent condition.  Even if the whole ending sequence was some kind of test for Shepard, successfully breaking out of Indoctrination would leave Shepard a broken shadow of his former self.  Essentially a brain dead husk.  This leaves no room for continuation of Shepard's story.

6.  Since this doesn't properly conclude the Mass Effect story, it means that Bioware is holding back some secret "real ending" DLC which they will surprise us with that wraps up the plot in a pretty little bow.


I don't know what to say about this really... We wont know one way or another until said "real ending" DLC is proven true or false.  It seems very tin-foil-hat-ish to me though.  I mean really?  Would they risk an entire franchise on some marketting ploy?

7. Other arguments include shepard's eyes/scars during the control ending, the fact that Destroy is the only ending that results in Shepard waking up, and that his pistol has infinite ammo during the ending sequence.


The Control ending eyes/scars have no relevance.  It's simply a visual representation of shepard being disintegrated in the process of becoming "reaper king".

The reason why Shepard only wakes up in the Destroy ending (with 4000+ EMS) is that he's dead in all the other ones.  Pretty much just straight forward logic here...

The pistol has infinite ammo for gameplay purposes.  It would serve no purpose to having you fail during the important closing sequence because you ran out of ammo.  People are reading too far into this mechanic.

Conclusion:

Overall, the only way the Indoctrination Theory would work, is if Bioware retconned nearly everything that is established in the lore about indoctrination.

The theory says that Shepard is indoctrinated some time after the Harbinger Beam. The whole rest of the game is in his head. I'll ignore the fact that nothing we experience from that point onwards other than the TIM sequence has any consistency to the codex entries on Indoctrination. You're basically saying that it's all a test, and that the Destroy ending is the "good" ending that causes him to wake up in London (but only if you have 4000+ EMS).

So every ending except Destroy with high EMS is a bad ending. So all the other endings are "you lose" and have nothing to do with choosing the ending for your Shepard. So that means that unless you shell out 10 bucks (because frankly everyone thinking it'll be free is deluding himself) to Bioware for the so called "real ending" DLC, you will not experience the end of the Mass Effect franchise.

The Indoctrination Theory contracticts both the game, as well as everything Bioware advertised the game as being about.  Not to mention that it doesn't actually leave room for continuation of the story because Shepard will be a braindead husk, unless Bioware employs "Space Magic" to miraculously make him achieve what no one in the history of the galaxy before him as done, and break free of Indoctrination permanently.

Please keep any discussion civil.  Thank you for reading.

Modifié par Tsantilas, 21 mars 2012 - 03:30 .


#2
Tsantilas

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Fixed the formatting.

#3
Malanek

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Would you care to explain why Shepard shoots Anderson?

#4
Evil_medved

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Malanek999 wrote...

Would you care to explain why Shepard shoots Anderson?


Coz he was born in London.

#5
Tsantilas

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Malanek999 wrote...

Would you care to explain why Shepard shoots Anderson?


I explained it under point number one.

As for the black lines on the screen during the TIM conversation, it is explained throughout the game via the Cerberus subplot, that TIM is experimenting on himself with reaper tech so that he can be able to control the reapers.  What he manages to do is reach a point where he's able to exert limited control on people, which is what happens during the conversation.  He tries to control Anderson and Shepard, but ultimately if you make the right decisions you can shoot him or make him see the error of his ways and commit suicide.  That is the only part in the whole trilogy where Shepard experiences some form of control/indoctrination, and it ends the moment TIM dies.


If you make the wrong decisions here, TIM successfully makes you shoot Anderson using the reaper tech he's been experimenting with.

Modifié par Tsantilas, 19 mars 2012 - 07:51 .


#6
Jaze55

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Malanek999 wrote...

Would you care to explain why Shepard shoots Anderson?


SOMEHOW which is never explained, TIM is able to controll Shep. Bad writing again, or left out for us to "speculate" but thats why, It's clear as day TIM is able to control them for some reason at that point in the game.

#7
Tiax Rules All

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im sorry but all of your points are off. Your idea of what indoc does to people is flawed. It DOES INDEED give hallucinations, guess you dont remember cerberus crew in derelict reaper? seeing that "grey thing jump out if the wall" and others.

you are selective and nitpicking.

Im not going to counter your counter points again because you obviously have made up your mind but bottom line is. I think you are incorrect or off on all counts. but nice try.

#8
CPU Hero

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I always thought the Indoctrination Theory was a bit far fetched. I personally believe that BioWare came up with a better ending, then decided that it wasn't what they wanted, delayed the game to march 6, and threw together this ending.

Now, since this is currently the cannon ending, I will say that I think that Shepard dies before he gets to the control panel to activate the crucible, and has a dying dream about the elevator, and the Starchild, and the terrible ABC ending.

#9
Malanek

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Tsantilas wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Would you care to explain why Shepard shoots Anderson?


I explained it under point number one.

As for the black lines on the screen during the TIM conversation, it is explained throughout the game via the Cerberus subplot, that TIM is experimenting on himself with reaper tech so that he can be able to control the reapers.  What he manages to do is reach a point where he's able to exert limited control on people, which is what happens during the conversation.  He tries to control Anderson and Shepard, but ultimately if you make the right decisions you can shoot him or make him see the error of his ways and commit suicide.  That is the only part in the whole trilogy where Shepard experiences some form of control/indoctrination, and it ends the moment TIM dies.


If you make the wrong decisions here, TIM successfully makes you shoot Anderson using the reaper tech he's been experimenting with.

The Reaper Tech he has been experimenting with is indoctrination. Were you paying attention to the Horizon mission?

#10
ohbobsagetpiss

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 Indoc theory really makes me rage for some reason. I guess because it reminds me of the dreaded "he woke up and it was all a dream" ending. Not exactly, but close to that level of failure. It would be MUCH worse then what we actually got. :sick:

#11
Malanek

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Evil_medved wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Would you care to explain why Shepard shoots Anderson?


Coz he was born in London.

You're not a Scot are you? Welsh?

Modifié par Malanek999, 19 mars 2012 - 07:55 .


#12
Tsantilas

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Malanek999 wrote...

The Reaper Tech he has been experimenting with is indoctrination. Were you paying attention to the Horizon mission?


Yes exactly... that's my point.  TIM is experimenting with indoctrination.  That sequence has nothing to do with Harbinger "trying" to indoctrinate Shepard.  It is all TIM's doing, and ends the moment he dies.

Modifié par Tsantilas, 19 mars 2012 - 07:56 .


#13
Mr. Gogeta34

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Anti-Indoctrination theory.... debunked.

#14
Malanek

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Tsantilas wrote...
Yes exactly... that's my point.  TIM is experimenting with indoctrination.  That sequence has nothing to do with Harbinger "trying" to indoctrinate Shepard.  It is all TIM's doing, and ends the moment he dies.

I completely agree that this does not prove Harbinger has indoctrinated Shepard and the god child scene is a hallucination. However many of your points in your first post was that Shepard is not indoctrinated at all. Now you are admitting he has been indoctrinated?

#15
Camronnba

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Yeah all your examples are from ME1 it seems. Indoctrination has been expanded upon the novels and subsequent games and you conveniently ignore these facts. I'm not saying I fully buy the indoc theory but you disprove nothing with your selective claims

#16
Midnight Eternal

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To add to your point about the gun I'll make an analogy. His gun doesn't run out of ammo for the same reason cars in the GTA series never run out of gas. But people never read too much into that huh?

#17
Hernok

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Javic the protean can see if you are adoctrinated or not...

#18
Camronnba

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Tsantilas wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

The Reaper Tech he has been experimenting with is indoctrination. Were you paying attention to the Horizon mission?


Yes exactly... that's my point.  TIM is experimenting with indoctrination.  That sequence has nothing to do with Harbinger "trying" to indoctrinate Shepard.  It is all TIM's doing, and ends the moment he dies.


Except God-Child, a mere minutes later, states that 'we' controlled him.  So wouldn't that be Reaper's using TIM to control Shepard, therfore indoctrination?

#19
Tsantilas

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Tiax Rules All wrote...

im sorry but all of your points are off. Your idea of what indoc does to people is flawed. It DOES INDEED give hallucinations, guess you dont remember cerberus crew in derelict reaper? seeing that "grey thing jump out if the wall" and others.

you are selective and nitpicking.

Im not going to counter your counter points again because you obviously have made up your mind but bottom line is. I think you are incorrect or off on all counts. but nice try.


You mention all my points are off, but only mention one of them.  There is no mention throughout the whole game of anyone having full blown dream sequence hallucinations.  The grey thing jumping out of the wall is explained in the lore as being a hallucination seen while AWAKE.  The Indoctrination theory is based around Shepard having a vivid lifelike dream while being passed out in London.  There is no mention of this in the narative.

#20
Noatz

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You don't really disprove anything, let alone definitively.

For example

"indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant."

"...there is a balance between control and usefulness. The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become."

"The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time."

There is no mention of dream sequences, or vivid full blown hallucinations. In addition, Indoctrination isn't a process that can fail. If the reapers use indoctrination on someone, their way of thinking is altered to follow reaper doctrine. After a while, the subject becomes a full blown slave who isn't in control of his actions. The subject never makes a choice to join the reapers, nor does he become tricked. He simply joins them without knowing he has changed.

As for the black lines on the screen during the TIM conversation, it is explained throughout the game via the Cerberus subplot, that TIM is experimenting on himself with reaper tech so that he can be able to control the reapers. What he manages to do is reach a point where he's able to exert limited control on people, which is what happens during the conversation. He tries to control Anderson and Shepard, but ultimately if you make the right decisions you can shoot him or make himsee the error of his ways and commit suicide. That is the only part in the whole trilogy where Shepard experiences some form of control/indoctrination, and it ends the moment TIM dies.


How does he control Anderson and Shepard? I mean logically he can't just control anyone he wants to, he didn't place a chip in Shepard - this we are told exhaustively, and he certainly didn't do anything to Anderson.

TIM's work revolves around co-opting the Reaper's signal to their forces, last time I checked Shepard and Anderson weren't husks.

Lastly the codex specifically mentions "ghostly images". You're using only entries from ME1 because the wording is slightly different and better supports your assertions - a classic example of cherry picking evidence.

Holes, your arguments have them.

#21
Camronnba

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Midnight Eternal wrote...

To add to your point about the gun I'll make an analogy. His gun doesn't run out of ammo for the same reason cars in the GTA series never run out of gas. But people never read too much into that huh?


And this is a moot point because guns in ME are shown to have either over-heating or ammo limitations (I realize they're technically the same) so this represents a drastic change.  Your comparison to GTA was frankly r-tarded

#22
Vigil_N7

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The issue with the indoctrination theory is that even if it is correct, what can possibly be gained from it? Even if you break the indoctrination, the game still ends in a similar way, and the reaper threat has not been stopped.

So really, if the indoctrination ending was correct, all we've got instead was an unfinished ending, brilliant...

#23
Tsantilas

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Malanek999 wrote...

I completely agree that this does not prove Harbinger has indoctrinated Shepard and the god child scene is a hallucination. However many of your points in your first post was that Shepard is not indoctrinated at all. Now you are admitting he has been indoctrinated?


Again... I mentioned under point 1. That the only mention of Shepard EVER being indoctrinated during the whole trilogy, is during that short sequence with TIM, and it ends the minute TIM dies.

#24
Midnight Eternal

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Malanek999 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...
Yes exactly... that's my point.  TIM is experimenting with indoctrination.  That sequence has nothing to do with Harbinger "trying" to indoctrinate Shepard.  It is all TIM's doing, and ends the moment he dies.

I completely agree that this does not prove Harbinger has indoctrinated Shepard and the god child scene is a hallucination. However many of your points in your first post was that Shepard is not indoctrinated at all. Now you are admitting he has been indoctrinated?


I don't wish to speak for him but from what I gather and from how the game explains it, TIM is implement the Reaper indoctrination tech in a more precise manner. Not saying he was indoctrinated but used the technology behind indoctrination to control Shepard.

#25
Tiax Rules All

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Tsantilas wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

im sorry but all of your points are off. Your idea of what indoc does to people is flawed. It DOES INDEED give hallucinations, guess you dont remember cerberus crew in derelict reaper? seeing that "grey thing jump out if the wall" and others.

you are selective and nitpicking.

Im not going to counter your counter points again because you obviously have made up your mind but bottom line is. I think you are incorrect or off on all counts. but nice try.


You mention all my points are off, but only mention one of them.  There is no mention throughout the whole game of anyone having full blown dream sequence hallucinations.  The grey thing jumping out of the wall is explained in the lore as being a hallucination seen while AWAKE.  The Indoctrination theory is based around Shepard having a vivid lifelike dream while being passed out in London.  There is no mention of this in the narative.



what ev, your wrong, im just tired of explaining. I started my own failrly successful Pro-Indoc theory thread. Im just to tired of this to re-explain