230 réponses à ce sujet

[Ferretinabun]

While I agree Bioware probably didn't PLAN the ending according to the Indoc Theory, it's a lifeline to them if they want to get their fans back on side. If they're smart they'll grab it and run with it. Let's face it, it might not be flawless but it makes a lot more darned sense than the mess of an ending we got if taken at face value.

[-Zorph-]

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

OP a few questions, if you will (in no particular order):

1) Why is the boy from the nightmares coincidentally the Star Child, are you trying to tell me he isn't related?
2) Read the Indoc entry in the Codex, it summarizes the final scene almost perfectly.
3) Listen to the Rachni Queen's description of how indoctrination felt in ME1 and ME3, it relates to many things in the final scene.
4) Why can Femshep/A Child/and Manshep all be heard as the one voice of the Star Child, why does he have 3 voices; specifically Female/Male Shepard?
5) How come TIM says "See what they can do" before Shepard shoots Anderson. How would 'they' make him do that, without at least partially controlling his mind, or attempting to.
6) How come TIM appears out of nowhere, there's nowhere to hide near that console. Speaking of which, how did Anderson teleport ahead of you?
7) Why did Anderson mention moving walls and it resembling the Collector ship? First of all, he wasn't even there. Second of all, it's not moving to Shepard.
8) Why are these huge chasms and platforms with weird HUMAN/ALLIANCE NUMBERS UNLIKE ANYTHING THE CITADEL WOULD HAVE in the so-called 'Citadel'. How would the Engineers of the place not seen these huge chasms? Maybe the beam brought them inside Sovereign instead.
9) Going off of 8, why did Sovereign conveniently fly away the second Shepard starts getting up?
10) Why are the trees from your nightmare there when you get up after getting hit by the beam?
11) How did your squadmates survive the beam and then get beamed up to the Normandy? This isn't Star Trek, despite the cameo to Scotty.
12) Why does James and Kaidan mention a hum, when the Indoc codex entry and the Rachni queen mention noises, not to mention the derelict Reaper scientists mentioning the same thing.

Just some food for thought. I respect your opinion, I just feel like there's too many signs the contrary of the OP.

1- The child embodies all of Shepards greif. Read this please and educate yourself. Ignorance is not a good trait. http://www.asdreams...._nightmares.htm 

2-Once again doesn't matter. No one in the history of the game is able to break free of indoctrination. Effects are irreversable. People that did break free did so for a tiny amount of time, before they started doing the Reapers will again.

3- The sour notes? Explain exactly what you mean please because I cant answer something so vague.

4- Bioware wanted to be cool and mysterious? 

5- The entire Cerubus mission explains this. Maybe pay attention a little to in game lore?

6- Bad writing and TIM could have been on the side of where you entered. Like hiding behind a wall when you walk into a room. I can hide from someoene just by standing off to the side when they walk in, not a big mystery. Try it yourself.

7- Its called being debriefed. Shep told them all about the ship. The wall does in fact move right before you get to the bridge

8 - Again explained in the games. The keepers are in charge of that, it tells you in both ME1 and ME2 that no one knows all the secrets of the citadel

9- Harrbringer did. I can't find it but you are welcome to try but I know I read they deleted a scene where Joker attacks Harrgringer to get him away from the battle. Joker and the Normandy I should say.

10- Oversight. Nothing you should be grasping at.

11- See 9

12 - I guess Kaiden and James are indoctrinated to then if they can hear the hum. 

I really think you don't know as much about the games lore as you think you do because some of those questions were clearly answered in the games.

Erm, derp. I meant Harbinger not Sovereign when referring to the Earth battle.

That being said, I completely and irrefutably am angered by your reply. You resort to personal attacks and mere 'that's an oversight' comments. I never made a personal attack at you, buddy. What's with the power trip?  Like for real. I talked to you with respect and understanding, and you're like "Did you even play? Did you even read?". That's a load of bullcrap man, you have no respect for anybody else, especially their opinions.

Your opinion isn't wrong, because an opinion can't be wrong. I've stated my opinion and a few select reasons out of the many for why that opinion is inside of my head. Get it, my head? (Not yours, you self-righteous power monger. See, I can do personal attacks too, except I'm defending myself from yours). Really, the Cerberus mission explained that TIM controls the muscular and nervus systems of Shepard? I missed that part. Having trees from your nightmares randomly appear on a battlefield is an oversight? If something is added that wasn't there previously, it's not an oversight. It was added. As in, the code was put in there.

Listen to the Rachni Queen's conversations from ME1 and ME3, I shouldn't have to explain them to you. In your words, "I really think you don't know as much about the games lore as you think you do". By the way, that statement made my literally laugh. You're a comedian in the making.

I still see your opinion, but mine differs. You can tell me I'm personally stupid all you want but that doesn't chance the evidence heretofore seen in the game(s).  I never said he broke free of indoctrination, you are simply taking words out of my mouth and manipulating them to your benefit, which is honestly no gain at all.

If you have no respect for me personally or my opinions, you will clearly get no respect in return. Do I sound angry in this post? Yes, because I am now. Your reply was so rude and disrespectful.

Sigh. You can't tell me my thought process is incorrect, no matter how hard you want.

Modifié par -Zorph-, 19 mars 2012 - 09:27 .

[Jaze55]

Sibbwolf wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

1- The child embodies all of Shepards greif. Read this please and educate yourself. Ignorance is not a good trait. http://www.asdreams...._nightmares.htm

Then how/why would the catalyst take the form of said child?

2-Once again doesn't matter. No one in the history of the game is able to break free of indoctrination. Effects are irreversable. People that did break free did so for a tiny amount of time, before they started doing the Reapers will again.

How many years between the first contact war and Saren's eventual indoctrination? Same question for TIM. Don't assume it's always a quick process.

3- The sour notes? Explain exactly what you mean please because I cant answer something so vague.

The sour notes are how the rachni queens perceive(d) the indoctrination process, since their communication takes the form of colour and music.

Note, the queen from ME1 and 3 successfully breaks free form indoctrination at least twice, and does not commit suicide.

12 - I guess Kaiden and James are indoctrinated to then if they can hear the hum. 

I really think you don't know as much about the games lore as you think you do because some of those questions were clearly answered in the games.

You have read the books, right?

1- I said becayse the child comes to represent all the loss Shepard has faced. BW thought it would be clever to use that at the end to make it more powerful

2- Doesn't matter. Saren was indoctrinated the moment he met Sovy. It was just subtle. Saren did EXACTLY what sovy wanted.

3- Hive mind, again I think it was explained somewhere. I will try to find after this.

4- I read this and it clearly states - In Mass Effect: Retribution, Grayson, alias Paul Johnson, is on Omega, working as an enforcer for Aria T'Loak, and is also involved with Aria's daughter, Liselle. Under Aria's orders, he steals a shipment of red sand from the Talons, a turian gang who have become more prominent after a recent shakeup within Omega's underworld. He has a crisis of conscience, as he does not want to give the red sand to Aria, and is fearful of relapsing into his old addictions. He is found by Cerberus operative Kai Leng, who reports his whereabouts to the Illusive Man. Grayson is soon kidnapped and implanted with Reaper technology, as part of an experiment to study indoctrination. Though the Illusive Man had planned to kill Grayson before he became too dangerous, an attack by the Turian Hierarchy gave Grayson a chance to escape. As the indoctrination grew more powerful, he felt a prisoner in his own body. The indoctrinated Grayson eventually made it to Jon Grissom Academy, as the Reapers were interested in the biotic potential of its students, with Leng, Dr. Sanders, and Admiral Anderson in hot pursuit. Grayson was mortally wounded when Anderson blasted him with a shotgun at point blank range. Kai Leng then executes Grayson with two bullets to the head. Afterward, Anderson and Sanders make plans to autopsy Grayson's body and study the Reaper technology within him in the hopes of learning how to fight the Reapers.

[Tsantilas]

agathokakological wrote...

snip

I'm sure I may have gotten some details wrong, since I didn't have the codex and game open while writing the OP, but I'm fairly sure without a shadow of doubt, that no one has been able to break Indoctrination once the process has begun.  Not permanently anyway.  The characters we interract with in the game that DO manage to break indoctrination, only manage to do so for a few seconds, enough to comit suicide/make a statement/return to being indoctrinated. 

As far as I understand, Indoctrination itself is simply electomagnetic waves given off through proximity to reaper tech.  There is no mention of mystical ghost children having in depth conversations with the subject, and offering him choices in a scheme to win him over to his side.  It just happens.  One minute you're sane, the next (not literally) you think the Reapers may be right about stuff, and next thing you know the reapers are directly controlling you.  This is what has been established by the lore.

If what we see at the end of ME3 is in fact an attempt for indoctrination, then it's something completely new not explained in the narrative, which in itself is a failure on the writer's part to clearly explain "what the **** is going on" to the player.

[Peer of the Empire]

The method of indoctrination is not new. Cerberus scientists on the derelict Reaper experienced something similar

Indoc theory derives its invincibility from the nonsensical nature of the ending. How to debunk something that has no logical consistency in the first place?  Indoc theory handwaves it all as a dream, in which case the ending is not broken and is more elegant than otherwise.

In attempting to prove it wrong, you're in effect trying to make sense out of the nonsense ending.  No wonder there has been no success.  Personally, I'm leaning toward bad writing

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 19 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[AllergevKev]

There's no way I'm reading all these comments, so this might have been addressed, but I would like to respond to people asking why Shepard shot Anderson and basically the context of that whole scene.

It's really quite simple. TIM got Reaper upgrades. The upgrades allow him to indoctrinate Shepard and Anderson. It is fully explained how this is done, but it doesn't need to be. While Indoc theory has a lot of good evidence, writing that glosses over details for the sake of pacing is not one of them.

[Jaze55]

-Zorph- wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

OP a few questions, if you will (in no particular order):

1) Why is the boy from the nightmares coincidentally the Star Child, are you trying to tell me he isn't related?
2) Read the Indoc entry in the Codex, it summarizes the final scene almost perfectly.
3) Listen to the Rachni Queen's description of how indoctrination felt in ME1 and ME3, it relates to many things in the final scene.
4) Why can Femshep/A Child/and Manshep all be heard as the one voice of the Star Child, why does he have 3 voices; specifically Female/Male Shepard?
5) How come TIM says "See what they can do" before Shepard shoots Anderson. How would 'they' make him do that, without at least partially controlling his mind, or attempting to.
6) How come TIM appears out of nowhere, there's nowhere to hide near that console. Speaking of which, how did Anderson teleport ahead of you?
7) Why did Anderson mention moving walls and it resembling the Collector ship? First of all, he wasn't even there. Second of all, it's not moving to Shepard.
8) Why are these huge chasms and platforms with weird HUMAN/ALLIANCE NUMBERS UNLIKE ANYTHING THE CITADEL WOULD HAVE in the so-called 'Citadel'. How would the Engineers of the place not seen these huge chasms? Maybe the beam brought them inside Sovereign instead.
9) Going off of 8, why did Sovereign conveniently fly away the second Shepard starts getting up?
10) Why are the trees from your nightmare there when you get up after getting hit by the beam?
11) How did your squadmates survive the beam and then get beamed up to the Normandy? This isn't Star Trek, despite the cameo to Scotty.
12) Why does James and Kaidan mention a hum, when the Indoc codex entry and the Rachni queen mention noises, not to mention the derelict Reaper scientists mentioning the same thing.

Just some food for thought. I respect your opinion, I just feel like there's too many signs the contrary of the OP.

1- The child embodies all of Shepards greif. Read this please and educate yourself. Ignorance is not a good trait. http://www.asdreams...._nightmares.htm 

2-Once again doesn't matter. No one in the history of the game is able to break free of indoctrination. Effects are irreversable. People that did break free did so for a tiny amount of time, before they started doing the Reapers will again.

3- The sour notes? Explain exactly what you mean please because I cant answer something so vague.

4- Bioware wanted to be cool and mysterious? 

5- The entire Cerubus mission explains this. Maybe pay attention a little to in game lore?

6- Bad writing and TIM could have been on the side of where you entered. Like hiding behind a wall when you walk into a room. I can hide from someoene just by standing off to the side when they walk in, not a big mystery. Try it yourself.

7- Its called being debriefed. Shep told them all about the ship. The wall does in fact move right before you get to the bridge

8 - Again explained in the games. The keepers are in charge of that, it tells you in both ME1 and ME2 that no one knows all the secrets of the citadel

9- Harrbringer did. I can't find it but you are welcome to try but I know I read they deleted a scene where Joker attacks Harrgringer to get him away from the battle. Joker and the Normandy I should say.

10- Oversight. Nothing you should be grasping at.

11- See 9

12 - I guess Kaiden and James are indoctrinated to then if they can hear the hum. 

I really think you don't know as much about the games lore as you think you do because some of those questions were clearly answered in the games.

Erm, derp. I meant Harbinger not Sovereign when referring to the Earth battle.

That being said, I completely and irrefutably am angered by your reply. You resort to personal attacks and mere 'that's an oversight' comments. I never made a personal attack at you, buddy. What's with the power trip?  Like for real. I talked to you with respect and understanding, and you're like "Did you even play? Did you even read?". That's a load of bullcrap man, you have no respect for anybody else, especially their opinions.

Your opinion isn't wrong, because an opinion can't be wrong. I've stated my opinion and a few select reasons out of the many for why that opinion is inside of my head. Get it, my head? (Not yours, you self-righteous power monger. See, I can do personal attacks too, except I'm defending myself from yours). Really, the Cerberus mission explained that TIM controls the muscular and nervus systems of Shepard? I missed that part. Having trees from your nightmares randomly appear on a battlefield is an oversight? If something is added that wasn't there previously, it's not an oversight. It was added. As in, the code was put in there.

Listen to the Rachni Queen's conversations from ME1 and ME3, I shouldn't have to explain them to you. In your words, "I really think you don't know as much about the games lore as you think you do". By the way, that statement made my literally laugh. You're a comedian in the making.

I still see your opinion, but mine differs. You can tell me I'm personally stupid all you want but that doesn't chance the evidence heretofore seen in the game(s).  I never said he broke free of indoctrination, you are simply taking words out of my mouth and manipulating them to your benefit, which is honestly no gain at all.

If you have no respect for me personally or my opinions, you will clearly get no respect in return. Do I sound angry in this post? Yes, because I am now. Your reply was so rude and disrespectful.

Sigh. You can't tell me my thought process is incorrect, no matter how hard you want.

Sorry I didn't personally attack you. Please don't be defensive. I just said you sound ignorant of PSTD, that's really not an attack. 

[Rawgrim]

I think the OP should re-read the indoctrination theory abit more carefully.

[effortname]

Tsantilas wrote...

agathokakological wrote...

snip

I'm sure I may have gotten some details wrong, since I didn't have the codex and game open while writing the OP, but I'm fairly sure without a shadow of doubt, that no one has been able to break Indoctrination once the process has begun.  Not permanently anyway.  The characters we interract with in the game that DO manage to break indoctrination, only manage to do so for a few seconds, enough to comit suicide/make a statement/return to being indoctrinated. 

As far as I understand, Indoctrination itself is simply electomagnetic waves given off through proximity to reaper tech.  There is no mention of mystical ghost children having in depth conversations with the subject, and offering him choices in a scheme to win him over to his side.  It just happens.  One minute you're sane, the next (not literally) you think the Reapers may be right about stuff, and next thing you know the reapers are directly controlling you.  This is what has been established by the lore.

If what we see at the end of ME3 is in fact an attempt for indoctrination, then it's something completely new not explained in the narrative, which in itself is a failure on the writer's part to clearly explain "what the **** is going on" to the player.

The process has literally only just begun with Shepard and the whole game is about doing away with the impossible in favor of what you think is right. Also, ghostly visions and whatnot are specifically mentioned in the codex entry. That's the way your mind processes the experience.

[Sibbwolf]

MassEffected555 wrote...

1- I said becayse the child comes to represent all the loss Shepard has faced. BW thought it would be clever to use that at the end to make it more powerful

Irrelevent to the story, or bad writing, sorry to say.

There is no reason or way the catalyst would have known about Shepard's mental state unless there was more going on.

2- Doesn't matter. Saren was indoctrinated the moment he met Sovy. It was just subtle. Saren did EXACTLY what sovy wanted.

Nice dodge. But, the process actually happens over a number of years. Unlike his brother, Saren is not quickly indoctrinated (Saren buries the artefacts - counter to what the reapers would want).

Saren first came into contact with Reaper tech during the first contact war - Not Sovereign.

3- Hive mind, again I think it was explained somewhere. I will try to find after this.

Now who's grasping? It is suggested the Rachni war started due to Reaper influence (indoctrination), one queen, still in her egg, survived. In ME1 and ME3, she successfully overcomes the indoctrination attempts - proving it is possible (in ME1, she was the only Rachni to resist).

4- I read this and it clearly states ...

How much detail are you ignoring?

Modifié par Sibbwolf, 19 mars 2012 - 09:34 .

[beyzend]

thank you. couldn't agree more.

Now I have to get other things done beside refreshing this forum every min.

[FellishBeast]

Well to be fair...no one who has been indoctrinated has really recorded what happened when it first started. I mean their mental integrity has been compromised at that point. They've given us lots of info about it...but that doesn't mean all the details are known to us. What a great way to reveal the truth of indoctrination by having us experience it for ourselves?

I don't completely disagree with your points here. I do think it was obvious that it was TIM that was controlling Shepard and Anderson in the scene, but it is interesting that TIM himself was also being controlled at the same time.

[FellishBeast]

beyzend wrote...

thank you. couldn't agree more.

Now I have to get other things done beside refreshing this forum every min.

Don't leeeave meeee

[Tsantilas]

effortname wrote...

The process has literally only just begun with Shepard and the whole game is about doing away with the impossible in favor of what you think is right. Also, ghostly visions and whatnot are specifically mentioned in the codex entry. That's the way your mind processes the experience.

Ghostly visions are a "slightly" different experience to what we encounter at the end of the game.  There is no mention in the codex of vivid lifelike dreams that are metaphors for a person's willpower.  The Codex says you hear weird whispers, see some ghostly figures, and otherwise are compelled to do what the reaper signal is telling you.  There is no mention of having a say in the matter.

[Sibbwolf]

Tsantilas wrote...

effortname wrote...

The process has literally only just begun with Shepard and the whole game is about doing away with the impossible in favor of what you think is right. Also, ghostly visions and whatnot are specifically mentioned in the codex entry. That's the way your mind processes the experience.

Ghostly visions are a "slightly" different experience to what we encounter at the end of the game.  There is no mention in the codex of vivid lifelike dreams that are metaphors for a person's willpower.  The Codex says you hear weird whispers, see some ghostly figures, and otherwise are compelled to do what the reaper signal is telling you.  There is no mention of having a say in the matter.

... Read the books.

[-Zorph-]

Arcian wrote...

I'm loving the Pro-Indoc arguments in this thread.

"Lol you're wrong. Anti-indoctrination theory successfully debunked."

Stay classy, BSN.

Erm, I compiled a list of some of the few grievances with the ending supporting Indoc theory, or at least an alternative reality to what the ending was.

An individual does not represent the ideals of a whole forum, despite you believing so.

[greywardencommander]

I am willing to go with 'it is possible to have the ending as the final stages of an indoctrination attempt' because nowhere does it ever explain what happens in the mind. How do you know that the stage from 'sane' to 'the reapers are right about some stuff' to 'control' doesn't happen via the brain trying to represent anything the reaper wants you to do within the context of your own thinking process and morality (like with Shepard). The fact indoctrination can be thrown off for even a few seconds is sufficient enough to imply that in THEORY a strong enough mind can throw it off.

I know it's not the same but in Harry Potter he was the first and only one to survive the killing curse, noone ran around saying he can't have done because noone else could block it before (before anyone point out the ins and outs of the bond with Voldermort it's just a theoretical example). The fact Shepard has (potentially) done it is a fact unto itself regardless of precedent. The fact that we've seen it be thrown off is enough to suggest there's a possibility it can be resisted all together.

All this can be applied within its own lore already set out without violating anything because nothing was explicitly said to be violated. Chucking a deus ex machina and a new 'super villain' for 2 mins as nothing more than space magic which seemingly (without further explanation from bioware) negates all that lore makes indoctrination theory the lesser of two evils so if people want to run with it until OFFICIALLY debunked, I don't see why they can't. Heck if they want to make it their head canon regardless, why not.

Modifié par greywardencommander, 19 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[Jaze55]

Sibbwolf wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

1- I said becayse the child comes to represent all the loss Shepard has faced. BW thought it would be clever to use that at the end to make it more powerful

Irrelevent to the story, or bad writing, sorry to say.

There is no reason or way the catalyst would have known about Shepard's mental state unless there was more going on.

2- Doesn't matter. Saren was indoctrinated the moment he met Sovy. It was just subtle. Saren did EXACTLY what sovy wanted.

Nice dodge. But, the process actually happens over a number of years. Unlike his brother, Saren is not quickly indoctrinated (Saren buries the artefacts - counter to what the reapers would want).

3- Hive mind, again I think it was explained somewhere. I will try to find after this.

Now who's grasping? It is suggested the Rachni war started due to Reaper influence (indoctrination), one queen, still in her egg, survived. In ME1 and ME3, she successfully overcomes the indoctrination attempts - proving it is possible (in ME1, she was the only Rachni to resist).

4- I read this and it clearly states ...

How much detail are you ignoring?

1- Same way the VI can tell if people are indoctinated. I assume somehow, some way, AI/VI's can read you mind or scan you. Every VI/AI you encounter pretty much does starting on Ilos.

2- 
  last paragraph - 

3- Like I said I wasn't sure and I would try to find it. See how I am willing to bend? You sure as hell arent.

4- You seem to ignore a lot about the game you say you know so much about so please don't talk condescendingly to me. 

[Tsantilas]

Sibbwolf wrote...

... Read the books.

Unfortunatelly I do not own the books so I'll have to take your word for it, but are you telling me that in the books, there is a character who has a vivid lifelike dream, in which a mystical figure taken from his memory offers him some significant choices, and choosing the wrong choice results in Indoctrination?  Because I'm fairly sure that's not how Indoctrination works.

[agathokakological]

Tsantilas wrote...

I'm sure I may have gotten some details wrong, since I didn't have the codex and game open while writing the OP, but I'm fairly sure without a shadow of doubt, that no one has been able to break Indoctrination once the process has begun.  Not permanently anyway.  The characters we interract with in the game that DO manage to break indoctrination, only manage to do so for a few seconds, enough to comit suicide/make a statement/return to being indoctrinated.  

Rachni queen. Rachni.

Edit: Not only did they break free from indoctrination, but they had the higher mental facilities to do engineering work on the Crucible. And if you saved the queen in ME1, she doesn't betray you.

One minute you're sane, the next (not literally) you think the Reapers may be right about stuff, and next thing you know the reapers are directly controlling you.  This is what has been established by the lore.

Well, let me give you a scenario that I would wager is true for the majority, if not all, of the people who chose Control or Synthesis: You're storming London with the intent of destroying the Reapers. Some sht happens, you hear some evidence against destroying Reapers, and you're given two other options that are described as preferable. You think these might be more suitable options, and you decide on one of them.

Sounds like indoctrination to me.

If what we see at the end of ME3 is in fact an attempt for indoctrination, then it's something completely new not explained in the narrative, which in itself is a failure on the writer's part to clearly explain "what the **** is going on" to the player.

Yes, precisely. This is why there were clues, if not too obvious so that the players all know to choose Destroy. Some evidence including (but not limited to):

"Nightmare trees" behind Shep directly after being hit by the laser.
Anderson appearing from nowhere, talking nonsense.
TIM appearing out of nowhere, with unprecedented mind control powers.
Shepard having Anderson's gunshot wound from where he should be shot.
Hackett knowing that Shepard made it to the Citadel, when the ground forces all said "the entire force was decimated" and no one made it to the beam.
Shepard just happening to lay down on a levitating platform that moves without provocation.
Shepard can breathe in space.
etc etc etc

Modifié par agathokakological, 19 mars 2012 - 09:45 .

[MyEternalReward]

-Zorph- wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

OP a few questions, if you will (in no particular order):

1) Why is the boy from the nightmares coincidentally the Star Child, are you trying to tell me he isn't related?
2) Read the Indoc entry in the Codex, it summarizes the final scene almost perfectly.
3) Listen to the Rachni Queen's description of how indoctrination felt in ME1 and ME3, it relates to many things in the final scene.
4) Why can Femshep/A Child/and Manshep all be heard as the one voice of the Star Child, why does he have 3 voices; specifically Female/Male Shepard?
5) How come TIM says "See what they can do" before Shepard shoots Anderson. How would 'they' make him do that, without at least partially controlling his mind, or attempting to.
6) How come TIM appears out of nowhere, there's nowhere to hide near that console. Speaking of which, how did Anderson teleport ahead of you?
7) Why did Anderson mention moving walls and it resembling the Collector ship? First of all, he wasn't even there. Second of all, it's not moving to Shepard.
8) Why are these huge chasms and platforms with weird HUMAN/ALLIANCE NUMBERS UNLIKE ANYTHING THE CITADEL WOULD HAVE in the so-called 'Citadel'. How would the Engineers of the place not seen these huge chasms? Maybe the beam brought them inside Sovereign instead.
9) Going off of 8, why did Sovereign conveniently fly away the second Shepard starts getting up?
10) Why are the trees from your nightmare there when you get up after getting hit by the beam?
11) How did your squadmates survive the beam and then get beamed up to the Normandy? This isn't Star Trek, despite the cameo to Scotty.
12) Why does James and Kaidan mention a hum, when the Indoc codex entry and the Rachni queen mention noises, not to mention the derelict Reaper scientists mentioning the same thing.

Just some food for thought. I respect your opinion, I just feel like there's too many signs the contrary of the OP.

1- The child embodies all of Shepards greif. Read this please and educate yourself. Ignorance is not a good trait. http://www.asdreams.org/magazine/articles/seigel_nightmares.htm 

2-Once again doesn't matter. No one in the history of the game is able to break free of indoctrination. Effects are irreversable. People that did break free did so for a tiny amount of time, before they started doing the Reapers will again.

3- The sour notes? Explain exactly what you mean please because I cant answer something so vague.

4- Bioware wanted to be cool and mysterious? 

5- The entire Cerubus mission explains this. Maybe pay attention a little to in game lore?

6- Bad writing and TIM could have been on the side of where you entered. Like hiding behind a wall when you walk into a room. I can hide from someoene just by standing off to the side when they walk in, not a big mystery. Try it yourself.

7- Its called being debriefed. Shep told them all about the ship. The wall does in fact move right before you get to the bridge

8 - Again explained in the games. The keepers are in charge of that, it tells you in both ME1 and ME2 that no one knows all the secrets of the citadel

9- Harrbringer did. I can't find it but you are welcome to try but I know I read they deleted a scene where Joker attacks Harrgringer to get him away from the battle. Joker and the Normandy I should say.

10- Oversight. Nothing you should be grasping at.

11- See 9

12 - I guess Kaiden and James are indoctrinated to then if they can hear the hum. 

I really think you don't know as much about the games lore as you think you do because some of those questions were clearly answered in the games.

Erm, derp. I meant Harbinger not Sovereign when referring to the Earth battle.

That being said, I completely and irrefutably am angered by your reply. You resort to personal attacks and mere 'that's an oversight' comments. I never made a personal attack at you, buddy. What's with the power trip?  Like for real. I talked to you with respect and understanding, and you're like "Did you even play? Did you even read?". That's a load of bullcrap man, you have no respect for anybody else, especially their opinions.

Your opinion isn't wrong, because an opinion can't be wrong. I've stated my opinion and a few select reasons out of the many for why that opinion is inside of my head. Get it, my head? (Not yours, you self-righteous power monger. See, I can do personal attacks too, except I'm defending myself from yours). Really, the Cerberus mission explained that TIM controls the muscular and nervus systems of Shepard? I missed that part. Having trees from your nightmares randomly appear on a battlefield is an oversight? If something is added that wasn't there previously, it's not an oversight. It was added. As in, the code was put in there.

Listen to the Rachni Queen's conversations from ME1 and ME3, I shouldn't have to explain them to you. In your words, "I really think you don't know as much about the games lore as you think you do". By the way, that statement made my literally laugh. You're a comedian in the making.

I still see your opinion, but mine differs. You can tell me I'm personally stupid all you want but that doesn't chance the evidence heretofore seen in the game(s).  I never said he broke free of indoctrination, you are simply taking words out of my mouth and manipulating them to your benefit, which is honestly no gain at all.

If you have no respect for me personally or my opinions, you will clearly get no respect in return. Do I sound angry in this post? Yes, because I am now. Your reply was so rude and disrespectful.

Sigh. You can't tell me my thought process is incorrect, no matter how hard you want.

I completely agree with you. This whole, "we both have our opinions, but MINE'S right" schtick is pretty ridiculous. We can all have our theories about the ending, but attacking others like this is a little over the top. Nothing stated here is "fact" until BioWare states that it is, so we can't discuss who is right or wrong at this point.

[effortname]

Arcian wrote...

I'm loving the Pro-Indoc arguments in this thread.

"Lol you're wrong. Anti-indoctrination theory successfully debunked."

Stay classy, BSN.

Except that's clearly not the majority of pro indoctrination posts? Why are pro-status quo posters always eager to try and pen the opposition as openly hostile?

[Sibbwolf]

MassEffected555 wrote...
1- Same way the VI can tell if people are indoctinated. I assume somehow, some way, AI/VI's can read you mind or scan you. Every VI/AI you encounter pretty much does starting on Ilos.

So the Catalyst, trying to 'help' Shepard 'save' organic life, takes on the image of Shepard's guilt. Then conveniently goes to to explain how it controls the Reapers, imposed this cycle etc (with the serious writing oversights that this creates if you paid attention to ME1).

2- 
  last paragraph - 

3- Like I said I wasn't sure and I would try to find it. See how I am willing to bend? You sure as hell arent.

You're missing the point. Saren and TIM first came into contact with reaper tech during the first contact war, and it was only many years later it manifested in a form we recognise from the games. Going back to the first contact war, we can assume both have begun the process as TIM's eyes change at the end of the comic.

Further, you claimed no-one had ever broken the indoctrination and survived (suicide usually being the outcome). I pointed out that the Rachni Queen does it not once, but twice.

4- You seem to ignore a lot about the game you say you know so much about so please don't talk condescendingly to me.

Interesting you decide to say that, but not actually try to refute my point. Tiresome.

[Tsantilas]

agathokakological wrote...

*snip*

Ah yes, the Rachni... haha but in all seriousness, this might just be something unique to the way rachni communicate or something.  It's never explained, only that they no longer hear the sour notes, whatever the hell that means.  It's probably just something unique to rachni physiology.

As for the destruction ending... The reason I didn't choose the destruction ending was because of the trouble I went through to save the geth by making peace with the Quarians.  If I had sided with the Quarians though this would have been a no brainer choice, and the other 2 options wouldn't have been even slightly tempting.  So what you're saying is that the Indoctrination theory rests on the possibility that you might care about the Geth?  Because otherwise, that's the only downside to the decision.  It's... a weak argument at best.  The other 2 result in certain death, while destruction results in only possible death.

All those points you list as evidence/clues supporting the indoctrination theory, are only speculation.  They could just as easily have no real deep significance, or could be oversights on the designer's part.  Shepard's gunshot?  Marauder Shields shot him didn't he?  Shepard breathing in space? Mass effect fields/space magic.  Which part of what Anderson told you seemed like nonsense exactly?