48 réponses à ce sujet

[Narsilsword]

 Clarification: The following argument does not mean I am upset or think it ruins ME3

There are many mistakes modern fiction writers AND readers can make regarding character deaths:
the first is to think that a death, especially that of the protagonists, increases the quality of the story. Granted if the death is not arbitrary and makes valid sense then it can increase the emotional investment or enhance the theme of the story. The second is to think that killing off characters makes the story more relaistic which often leads to minor characters dying or at least ONE main character
Look at the harry potter series, neither Ron, Harry or Hermione dies, but minor characters do

regarding mass effect 3 they certainly handled many of these very well. Thanes made sense and seemed a logical progression from the events and in my opinion was the most emotionally taxing.
Mordins stemmed from redemption and the fact that there was no other alternative(assuming your intent was to cure the genophage)
Talis death is caused by the massacre and annihilation of her people and this again makes perfect sense for her suicide.

But when it comes to Legion's we are told that his dissemination is necesary for the geth to be upgraded. Now my knowledge of computing software is very slimespecially when it comes to a theoretical networked AI. Yet, Even when I try my hardest I see no Logical explanation for why Legion needs to die for the geth to be upgraded.
The intent seems to be that the reader accept this by being made to feel like an ameteur; they are being told that there is a reason that must be accepted for some ambiguous reason.
The message comes off as clearly contrived. Just as Mordin seemingly redeemed the salarians in the eyes of the krogan, Legion now has to make his sacrifice to show Tali he has a soul.
I do not see any explanation for how the Geth can be upgraded to individual intellect purely from a software upgrade. It is like saying a monkey can become a human without an physiological changes to its brain, it only needs to read more books.
I am NOT arguing that Mass effect is ruined, I am merely trying to make a point that I hope others feel as well.

I know some areas in which others would argue against this, but I feel that honestly they would not compliment the clear direction of the scenarios dialogue.
I look forward to comments

[Squadrito]

A tear shed for my Brobot

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I shot Legion.

[Narsilsword]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I shot Legion.

I didn't adress this at all. That was really bad of me, oh well I face the consequences

[FyreFlyeRush]

His "death" made perfect sense to me. But, like Mordin's, it ended up being for nothing. Oddly, if you chose the green ending, you did the exact same thing he did.

[ElementL09]

I felt that Legion was a link to multiple Geth Platforms, because of this, the upgrade could have had to much strain on his "artificial being". I thought it made sense, he did sacrifice himself for the Geth as a hole.

I miss Legion, he was an interesting character in Mass Effect 2. Kinda wish I could fight along side him again.

[GBGriffin]

I felt it wasn't really explained well enough exactly why he had to do it. It was just sort of something that happened.

Legion: "This isn't working. Must disseminate self"
Femshep: "Oh...okay. Miss you."

I mean...I thought it was sad, but I didn't understand why it had to happen. Thane's and Mordin's made more sense and were very fitting. Legion's just sort of...happened, imo.

Modifié par GBGriffin, 19 mars 2012 - 08:21 .

[Narsilsword]

FyreFlyeRush wrote...

His "death" made perfect sense to me. But, like Mordin's, it ended up being for nothing. Oddly, if you chose the green ending, you did the exact same thing he did.

could you explain? As I said, how does upgrading the geth require him to "die"?

[Xenbus]

Narsilsword wrote...

 Clarification: The following argument does not mean I am upset or think it ruins ME3

There are many mistakes modern fiction writers AND readers can make regarding character deaths:
the first is to think that a death, especially that of the protagonists, increases the quality of the story. Granted if the death is not arbitrary and makes valid sense then it can increase the emotional investment or enhance the theme of the story. The second is to think that killing off characters makes the story more relaistic which often leads to minor characters dying or at least ONE main character
Look at the harry potter series, neither Ron, Harry or Hermione dies, but minor characters do

regarding mass effect 3 they certainly handled many of these very well. Thanes made sense and seemed a logical progression from the events and in my opinion was the most emotionally taxing.
Mordins stemmed from redemption and the fact that there was no other alternative(assuming your intent was to cure the genophage)
Talis death is caused by the massacre and annihilation of her people and this again makes perfect sense for her suicide.

But when it comes to Legion's we are told that his dissemination is necesary for the geth to be upgraded. Now my knowledge of computing software is very slimespecially when it comes to a theoretical networked AI. Yet, Even when I try my hardest I see no Logical explanation for why Legion needs to die for the geth to be upgraded.
The intent seems to be that the reader accept this by being made to feel like an ameteur; they are being told that there is a reason that must be accepted for some ambiguous reason.
The message comes off as clearly contrived. Just as Mordin seemingly redeemed the salarians in the eyes of the krogan, Legion now has to make his sacrifice to show Tali he has a soul.
I do not see any explanation for how the Geth can be upgraded to individual intellect purely from a software upgrade. It is like saying a monkey can become a human without an physiological changes to its brain, it only needs to read more books.
I am NOT arguing that Mass effect is ruined, I am merely trying to make a point that I hope others feel as well.

I know some areas in which others would argue against this, but I feel that honestly they would not compliment the clear direction of the scenarios dialogue.
I look forward to comments

Since the true nature of the geth intelligence and the reaper upgrades isn't very well fleshed out I can take this under the suspension of disbelief. I'm not saying that you should, but I think it also fits Legions chatacter very well that he would make this choice.

The reason being that if you did the Geth server thing, and listen to the comment Shepard makes about the video of the Geth taking up a weapon for the first time against the Quarians, you comment on how it looks like the gun Legion used to carry. It implies he was the first geth to actually raise arms against the Quarians, and that he did it to protect his race after the Quarians that were sympathetic were already killed off, by other Quarians.

So I don't see the sacrifice out of character at all, and I take it as artistic license that he needs to do it to save his species and make sure the war is ended.

Just my 2 cents.

[RustyMcBlade]

FyreFlyeRush wrote...

His "death" made perfect sense to me. But, like Mordin's, it ended up being for nothing. Oddly, if you chose the green ending, you did the exact same thing he did.

Yep. Death made sense but it was for nothing.

[Legbiter]

I thought Legion didn't so much die as become part of every Geth. Of course space magic destroys all the Geth in the end but still, Legion is only kinda dead at that point in time.

[Narsilsword]

ElementL09 wrote...

I felt that Legion was a link to multiple Geth Platforms, because of this, the upgrade could have had to much strain on his "artificial being". I thought it made sense, he did sacrifice himself for the Geth as a hole.

I miss Legion, he was an interesting character in Mass Effect 2. Kinda wish I could fight along side him again.

You'd think with all the geth technology he could store his uncomplex geth self somewhere to be updated later?

[Darthlawsuit]

Narsilsword wrote...

FyreFlyeRush wrote...

His "death" made perfect sense to me. But, like Mordin's, it ended up being for nothing. Oddly, if you chose the green ending, you did the exact same thing he did.

could you explain? As I said, how does upgrading the geth require him to "die"?

He had to experiment on his own mind and therefore destroyed many of his core processes in making the upgrade. He probably had some left but its not the same legion.

[movieguyabw]

GBGriffin wrote...

I felt it wasn't really explained well enough exactly why he had to do it. It was just sort of something that happened.

Legion: "This isn't working. Must disseminate self"
Femshep: "Oh...okay. Miss you."

I mean...I thought it was sad, but I didn't understand why it had to happen. Thane's and Mordin's made more sense and were very fitting. Legion's just sort of...happened, imo.

This.

[Flyprdu]

I understood it that the upgrade needed a "personality" to complete the process. Since Legion was the most advanced Geth, and had achieved sentience independently, he was the only option to upload.

Legion's death wasn't nearly as bitter as Mordin's because I knew that Legion had merely vacated his platform and distributed himself evenly across the Geth collective. The entire race of Geth is all now part-Legion.

That actually gives me warm fuzzies.

Modifié par Flyprdu, 19 mars 2012 - 08:27 .

[frylock23]

FyreFlyeRush wrote...

His "death" made perfect sense to me. But, like Mordin's, it ended up being for nothing. Oddly, if you chose the green ending, you did the exact same thing he did.

This is just one reason why I don't think "synthesis" is in any way the perfect ending at all. Legion always seems to have been a foil or parallel of sorts for Shepard (Legion even wears Shepards armor to drive it home in case you miss it). And, if it makes no sense for Legion to be able to give the Geth individuality by sacrificing himself, then it makes less sense for Shepard to remove that same individuality by sacrificing herself later on.

[anexanhume]

RustyMcBlade wrote...

FyreFlyeRush wrote...

His "death" made perfect sense to me. But, like Mordin's, it ended up being for nothing. Oddly, if you chose the green ending, you did the exact same thing he did.

Yep. Death made sense but it was for nothing.

Yeah, I took it under suspension of disbelief. Uploading a personality from a terminal isn't within normal geth operating procedure, so I just take it to mean that to be able to broadcast the personality out, he had to use all of his remote unit's power reserves.

[crapmonster13]

scientifically, it makes little sense but in terms of narrative I'll say it makes as much sense as killing off Data in TNG. Take that as what you will.

[pb1285n]

Narsilsword wrote...

 Clarification: The following argument does not mean I am upset or think it ruins ME3

There are many mistakes modern fiction writers AND readers can make regarding character deaths:
the first is to think that a death, especially that of the protagonists, increases the quality of the story. Granted if the death is not arbitrary and makes valid sense then it can increase the emotional investment or enhance the theme of the story. The second is to think that killing off characters makes the story more relaistic which often leads to minor characters dying or at least ONE main character
Look at the harry potter series, neither Ron, Harry or Hermione dies, but minor characters do

regarding mass effect 3 they certainly handled many of these very well. Thanes made sense and seemed a logical progression from the events and in my opinion was the most emotionally taxing.
Mordins stemmed from redemption and the fact that there was no other alternative(assuming your intent was to cure the genophage)
Talis death is caused by the massacre and annihilation of her people and this again makes perfect sense for her suicide.

But when it comes to Legion's we are told that his dissemination is necesary for the geth to be upgraded. Now my knowledge of computing software is very slimespecially when it comes to a theoretical networked AI. Yet, Even when I try my hardest I see no Logical explanation for why Legion needs to die for the geth to be upgraded.
The intent seems to be that the reader accept this by being made to feel like an ameteur; they are being told that there is a reason that must be accepted for some ambiguous reason.
The message comes off as clearly contrived. Just as Mordin seemingly redeemed the salarians in the eyes of the krogan, Legion now has to make his sacrifice to show Tali he has a soul.
I do not see any explanation for how the Geth can be upgraded to individual intellect purely from a software upgrade. It is like saying a monkey can become a human without an physiological changes to its brain, it only needs to read more books.
I am NOT arguing that Mass effect is ruined, I am merely trying to make a point that I hope others feel as well.

I know some areas in which others would argue against this, but I feel that honestly they would not compliment the clear direction of the scenarios dialogue.
I look forward to comments

What I gather is that Legion was unable to upload the upgrade due to a problem with its platform, so the only way to distribute the upgrade was to return to the collective itself. I don't believe Legion is dead, all its memories are still floating around somewhere, but the individuality it gained is now gone.

[FyreFlyeRush]

Narsilsword wrote...

FyreFlyeRush wrote...

His "death" made perfect sense to me. But, like Mordin's, it ended up being for nothing. Oddly, if you chose the green ending, you did the exact same thing he did.

could you explain? As I said, how does upgrading the geth require him to "die"?

I didn't see it so much as dying as I saw him becoming a part of every Geth. I got it as trying to "copy" himself and then distributed the "patch" to all other Geth. His upload failed, so he saw the only option as a direct "move" versus "copy". Maybe it's because I'm a techie. Sometimes, Windows won't let you copy a file, but it will let you move it.

As far as the Green option in the ending, you've basically uploaded yourself and sent it to everyone in the galaxy. Well, everyone with a mass relay...(ignores The Arrival) Not sure how the green energy ball hits those not in systems without relays.

[nevar00]

Yes... it really did not make any sense.  I don't understand.

Legion's death was still the most heartbreaking to me, as he was one of my favorite characters. I nearly teared up at that part.

Modifié par nevar00, 19 mars 2012 - 08:33 .

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

I'm trying to imagine what the scene would be like without Legion's death, and it seems like it would just be that "rainbows and butterflies" conclusion that everybody thinks we want for the ME3 ending. It wouldn't be a positive thing.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 19 mars 2012 - 08:33 .

[Sesshomaru47]

Legbiter wrote...

I thought Legion didn't so much die as become part of every Geth. Of course space magic destroys all the Geth in the end but still, Legion is only kinda dead at that point in time.

That's what I figured. There's a little bit of Legion in all of them...except that Prime pretty much said "nah he's dead". I miss Legion, I wanted him back on my team. If only to annoy Kaidan a little more and Javik. Yeah he would have loved that.

[pb1285n]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

I thought Legion didn't so much die as become part of every Geth. Of course space magic destroys all the Geth in the end but still, Legion is only kinda dead at that point in time.

That's what I figured. There's a little bit of Legion in all of them...except that Prime pretty much said "nah he's dead". I miss Legion, I wanted him back on my team. If only to annoy Kaidan a little more and Javik. Yeah he would have loved that.

They didn't say he's dead, wasn't it more like "The one you know as Legion is gone", which is true