65 réponses à ce sujet

[eloquentrave]

double post.

Modifié par eloquentrave, 30 novembre 2009 - 01:23 .

[Walina]

aberdash wrote...

Walina wrote...

@ bayolau : +10! I would've loved WoW as a rpg pc *_*

Without the "FUUUUUUUUUUUUU you ******!!!" or "epic lawl" moments? What fun would that be?

You're the one who is dumb when you only see gameplay in my reply while I am talking about the possibilyt to enjoy more the story of WoW if it was an ofline game.

Though, it will prolly had the same fate as DAO because of the replay value will be mostly the same.

Modifié par Walina, 30 novembre 2009 - 01:25 .

[jbadm04]

Well there is no replay value for me either and it have nothing to do with the classes. Ther are some "decisions" I made, I would make some other way to see what happens (ie landsmeet or morrigan before the "last battle), but on the other hand, DAO is pure chaos and I dont think I want to go thorugh it again. I played through KOTOR, JAde Empire, Mass Effect a couple of times, but DAO... the combat system is awful, the loot system, the crafting....no replay value for me, a lot of reasons to do so, to see different outcomes, but also a lot of reasons not to play. Hm.

[MerinTB]

Shabob wrote...

Now the time I've spent playing and beating the game was really incredible.  Now as a MMO player I admit I'm spoiled when it comes to replay value, and this game is better than 95% of other single player games when it comes to amount of content.

The reason is that I only have the choice between rogue, warrior, and mage.  Now, normally that would be three play throughs.  The problem with this game is that everyone in your party is allready one of those three classes.  I get to play a warrior every time I use Allister.  I get to play a rogue any time I use Liliana, I get to play a mage any time I use Morrigan.  By the time the game is done I've had my fill of all three classes.

Sure I can play again and take a couple different origins, choices, approvals, etc, but the basic play through is never going to change no matter what I play. 

Edited in the near future for correct name spellings.

Like any party-based game (whether Mass Effect or KotOR or Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale, any of the SSI TSR RPGs, Mars Saga to Freedom Force to Bard's Tale series to Wizardry, and so many more) you'll get to play many of the class/character build choices through your party members.  This is nothing new to this kind of game.  Sometimes (Icewind Dale, Bard's Tale, SSI TSR RPGs, etc.) you don't even have a main character.  If you need to only have the solo character for replayability, then other games are better for you. *shrug*

when you list "origins, choices, approvals" realize that many of these have never been seen in most other games.  Choices in dialog are common, but having a different game beginning based on which "origin" you choose can only be found in one other RPG that comes to mind - Temple of Elemental Evil.

Most games (until fairly recently) have always been the same exact story, the same exact scenes, the same exact dialog  - most of the time the same exact weapons and look to your character.

Now take a typical game, add dialog options.

Ok, add 7+ optional party members for a party of 4.

Then add multiple endings, not just to the game but to different story arcs.

Now add being able to be good or bad, in most decisions, and that choice having an effect on the story and your character.

Now add potential romance with more than one or two party members, as well as friendship / dismissing of party members.

Ok, still there?

You get 3 base classes, but each of those base classes has a variety of skills and abilities - so, at the very basic level, you've got 4 options for Warriors (2H, Dual Wield, S&S, Archer) and combos of such.  But on top of that you have up to 2 optional specializations out of 4 for each base class.  And numerous weapon / armor choices (unless, of course, all of this is meaningless because you cannot comprehend playing anything but the uber combo using the uber items.)

Now to this add 6 different beginnings to the game - again, there's only one game I can thing of (one RPG, at least) that does this.

And all of this doesn't consider DLC, possible future expansions - AND the community made mods.

Replayability is high.  Considering how many times people can play through Halo or Doom or Madden Football  - I think the replayability is quite high for this game.

Maybe none of that matters.  For me a second playthrough of Fallout 3 (a very good game, not knocking it here) was barely possible even with all the DLC I used on the second playthrough.  Oblivion  I was unable to get into for a second game.  VTM Bloodlines, however, I have played 5 times through.  Different games will be more or less fun for different people.

Maybe it doesn't have much replay for you - but the game has so many reasons many others will find fit to play it multiple times!

[Shabob]

kelsjet wrote...


Spoken like a true MMO junkie OP.

But no, your analysis is faulty. Unlike MMOs, this game is not about just one character, but instead it is about the group.

True, you played as Leliana when she is in your group, but what was that group? 1 tank, 1 CC mage, 1 Leliana ranged spec, 1 healer? What about another playthrough with 4 physical DPS classes? What about another with an all magic group? What about group synergies? What about the fact that even though there are 3 'archetypes', there is a vast variation within these archetypes as far as class and purpose is concerned.

Now true, the game doesn't lay out these variations as blatantly as say, World of Warcraft, but then again, DA:O isn't meant to be as mindless as WoW as far as class design is concerned. In most MMOs, you pick a class and that's it, any specializations within the class only truly change simple aesthetic effects of your class, e.g. the WoW mage has 3 different 'trees' which all do the same thing, you just pick which color bolt comes out your hands.

This is not the case with DA:O. For example, the DA:O mage's specializations are vastly different. Mage's can be spirit casters, elementalists, melee mages (Arcane Warriors), DoT specialists, CC specialists and pretty much every single other combination you can think of.

Now take this deep class variations and combine that with group synergy effects. Playing the game with 3 mages in your group is vastly different then playing it with 3 warriors. And I really do mean vastly different. Your entire approach to combat changes. Fights that you would try very hard to avoid with 3 mages you would welcome with 3 warriors for example. Now imagine how this option space explodes when you take into account all the different class variations. Entire group dynamics will change depending on which variation you take.

This is where the replay value will come in with DA:O. Leliana will be a melee rogue in one playthrough, a ranged specialist in another, a buff-bot extraordinaire bard in the third. She will work with 1 mage and 2 warriors one time, 3 mages another time, 1 melee rogue 1 mage and 1 tank a third time, and we can go on for a while, then multiply that with all the other characters.


But yes, I do agree that if you limit your view of DA:O and totally ignore the vastness of the class and combat system by looking at DA:O with the same brainless glasses you are forced to wear when playing an MMO, then you could think that there is no replay value. Too bad that doesn't change the fact that you would still be wrong.


So yea, go enjoy grinding your MMO. The rest of us will be here, exploring the huge class and combat system, class synergies, and tactics of DA:O.

Enjoy!

Firstly, you assumed that because I mentioned 3 names representing the three archetypes in the game that I haven't played with anyone else in my party...  I used the respec mod so I have used lots and lots of builds/party combininations.  So I had to go out of my way to add variety to the game.  I've already done the 3 arcane warrior party, I've done the 4 two handed warrior party, I've done the 3 rogue party, so don't lecture me on what combinations you can do...  I already know.

Secondly, WoW is a big ole strawman.  Between the 8+ I've played now I've put on about 2 years of /played  I don't imagine I'll get 10 days /played on this game.

Thirdly, calling combat in MMO's brainless is IMO a brainless statement.  Last time I checked you couldn't "pause" the game in an MMO and you didn't get to "reload."

As to the person who listed 20 RPGS, yes yes I've played all of them too.  Oblivion was by far the best RPG so far with the most replayability.  Easily three to four times the amount this game has.

[Chaosy]

I agree with the OP in the sense that the story in DA:O is very linear. Despite what party you pick or decisions you make, you really only get so many big picture endings.



The whole point of a MMO is that it doesn't end, so therefore you keep playing. In reality, all a MMO does is take a quest line and forces you to do it over and over to get different loot, tack on updated (aka DLC) content every now and then for the price of your monthly fee, the ability to play with or against other people, and enough pixel crack to keep you interested.



In many ways, Dragon Age can be made into an open-ended MMO. If they did, I would be the first one to play it. :-D

[Elanareon]

aberdash wrote...

kelsjet wrote a very long post

Thats a very idealistic view of the game unfortunately it is not true. The combat has no depth nor do the classes. Whether you have a 3 mage party or a 3 warrior party each class is still doing the same as it would in any other party composition.

Does MMO's have depth combat??? I played alot of MMO's I haven't seen one... Yeah, including WoW.

[mufuti7]

Deathstyk85 wrote...

if your an mmo player, then this should seem like the norm to you. i mean if you "run a dungeon" or raid its the same thing over and over and over.
this, while still the same basic outline, has a very different story you can play several times.
also playing the party members, is much different then playing your pc as a rogue/warrior/mage

Cant agree at all, Dragon Age, like all other singe player RPGs I ever played will be the exact  same game. It is not just the "basic outline". MMOs are vastly different because they actually offer immense "replay" value if you want to call it that.
The dungeon running aspect of those games gets repetitous if you do it with all available classes obviously oor are unable to progress through all the content but the experience of playing a new class, even in known scenarios, is something fresh and exciting.
the most rewarding part (for me) is mastering the class in PvP combat which really never is the same thing over and over.

Naturally single player and MMO games have very different goals to achieve so the comparison is not even fair but still, the problem with single player RPGs is that after all they are quite static. You may take another path and change the outcome of some quests, take other companions with you etc. But this does not change the game, 90% of the game will play the same and especially combat, a big part of these games, is not engaging enough to really help fighting the routine. There are too few abilities, you essentially know all the classes once you finished the game.
The story might end differently but you know the core of it, you know all the major surprises and plot twists and turns.

I think in the end everyone has to decide for himself if he is willing to put 50 hours and more of his life into a game to experience an effective 2 or 3 hours of new gameplay, at best.
Personally I am not touching the game again just for a different ending sequence. At least for a few months until there is new DLC and fan mods out there to make another playthrough worthwile.

but I can completely understand the OP, if you are actively playing MMOs you will be very disappointed with the lasting appeal of any offline games, no matter how epic the first playthrough may be.

[Elanareon]

Oblivion has no replayability... If you are talking about the mods isn't it unfair to compare both where DA has just started making it's own mods? really how narrow minded people are...

[DragonRageGT]

I'm on my 3rd run with the same human noble kicking azz 2 handed hero good hearted, raged, a true champion and I'm enjoying it more and more every minute. Maybe I'm just crazy but I'm already thinking about my 4th run with him.
- 1st was a incomplete half way, lvl 15, normal diff, to learn the basics.
- 2nd was a full run, lvl 22, Hard diff, no DLC, 105 hrs (waiting release of the game here... bless you file sharing!) - all tactics off on party.
- 3rd run - finally with my C.E., Nightmare diff, lvl 16 atm, even better stats than previous run, better equip too, better understanding on party management and tactics. 60 hrs and plenty ahead.
- 4th run - I'll solo the damn thing in NM with my Hero! (now that's a frightning thought sometimes)

And then, when he retires, there will be lots of different characters for me to try. I think that I'm still getting a fresh experience with the same char and the game is so good that I can feel like I did in my first run, just by altering the whole order in which I'm doing my run. ('cept for the circle/fade thing which is pretty linear but still possible to try different choices).

Oh, and when I want some PvP, I go back to Hardcore Diablo II duels... MMO is cheesy!

Modifié par RageGT, 30 novembre 2009 - 03:30 .

[Deception_2112]

Actually it is...the toolset Beth included with Oblivion far surpasses the one created by Bioware...

Mods so far in DA are limited to at best retextures of existing models, allowing abilities that are usually avaliable only to NPCs for the PC and replacing companion faces.

Thats a far cry from what the Oblivion community had accomplished tbh...Within weeks of release models, quests and etc were well underway in WIP status, whereas now for DA modders are still figuring out ways to add a basic model into the toolset.

Maybe time will change everything, but as far as i've seen no game has been modded more than Oblivion and been successful at it. Bioware are excellent at immersing you in a story, but they fall short at allowing community developed content, which extends the game well beyond its normal lifetime.

As much as i love Bioware games, Kotor, Mass Effect and etc. cannot compare to Morrowind and Oblivion when it comes to mods, and i doubt DA will be capable of doing so.

And MMO's? I dislike them, couldn't stand WoW for example, the idea of having a 50 man raid with a boss like Illidan COMPLETELY oversized is just beyond me, MMOs are just like farming exercises, and everything is about "Balance" despite what Lore and etc can dictate, you can never roleplay a character you want, because say you want an overpowered character or a hero, MMO logic dictates that it can never happen. It's methodical and pointless, there's no story, no real sense of epicness. Getting that legendary weapon isn't about the lore or a sense of purpose, it's about killing the same boss/creature for that rare drop over and over again and then combining said pieces and forming a weapon.

Modifié par Deception_2112, 30 novembre 2009 - 03:34 .

[DragonRageGT]

Huh, you talk about BW like there weren't amazing online Permanent Worlds with so many different settings and stories that people still play it to this date! (Well, perhaps not so much now that DA is out)



How did oblivion beat that? (and I do have 2 chars with over 500 hrs each in TES4 thanks to the mods there, but that's not even near the 5 years I have with my epic archer in Middle Earth PW in NWN)

[Elanareon]

Well Bioware didn't create a toolset i believe. They just handed you down the same program they used to create the game itself. It was not dumbed down and simplified to have more possibilities with the toolset as they say.

[Elanareon]

One more thing, i find it hard to believe that you can't find replayability value for DA:O because you are and MMO player... I mean isn't that what people do in MMO's run the same dungeons and raids all the time? I mean even i got sick of that... But if you glorify yourself as an MMO player this shouldn't be a problem to you because you're used to playing the same dungeons the same raids the same dailies all of the time...

[DragonRageGT]

Indeed...



Watch Southpark - Make Love Not Warcraft !!!

[thestreaker]

Isn't MMO's practically all grind and re-doing dungeons for better loot/higher DKP? At least here you get an actual good game the first time through, and subsequent playthroughs give you different origins and choices.

[Thibbledorf26]

There is tremendous replayability- origins, different quest solutions, differet party member banter. Besides if you create a character you get to choose their skills and talents from scratch, playing a mage is different to having wynne or morrigan in your party- you can choose which spells you want to invest in. Specializations add another facet as well.

[mufuti7]

kelsjet wrote...

In most MMOs, you pick a class and that's it, any specializations within the class only truly change simple aesthetic effects of your class, e.g. the WoW mage has 3 different 'trees' which all do the same thing, you just pick which color bolt comes out your hands.

Not really a good example. class design and abilities in most MMOs, including WoW are so far superior to single player games it is ridiculous to even compare them both. I agree, the mage class is pretty well done in Dragon Age but you cant honestly try to compare them to the flexibility you have playing a caster in a MMO. Dont even start comparing the other archetypes. Mister Prot/Holy/Ret Pally and his good friend the warrior want to have a talk with you. And WoW is not even a great example!

This is not the case with DA:O. For example, the DA:O mage's specializations are vastly different. Mage's can be spirit casters, elementalists, melee mages (Arcane Warriors), DoT specialists, CC specialists and pretty much every single other combination you can think of.



This is where the replay value will come in with DA:O. Leliana will be a melee rogue in one playthrough, a ranged specialist in another, a buff-bot extraordinaire bard in the third. She will work with 1 mage and 2 warriors one time, 3 mages another time, 1 melee rogue 1 mage and 1 tank a third time, and we can go on for a while, then multiply that with all the other characters.

But what exactly is replay value in that?

It is good to have this choice to begin with but for a second playthrough it doesnt change the combat dynamic in the game - which is simple and static. It just changes how I utilize a class. My enemies will still be stupid, I will still try to incapacitate them, then burn down their mages, then simple tank and spank until I can loot their corpses. A couple of bosses have a few exciting abilities (called knockdown, knockback and AoE stun) but aside from that it is a giant borefest of repetitive combat.



Wether or not I am playing a spirit healer with CC abilities or an arcane Warrior throwing around fireballs - just more of the same old. slightly different flavour, very same experience.

In WoW, wether I play a frost mage for PvP or go raiding as an arcane mage - massive difference.



In the end the "trash pulls" in the Deep Roads for example are very similar to MMO dungeon cawling only that you cant have fun with your buddies in vent and the encounters offer enemies without exciting abilities and very undynamic combat.

Except for the odd mage insta gibbing your whole party with a fireball of course... /yawn

So yea, go enjoy grinding your MMO. The rest of us will be here, exploring the huge class and combat system, class synergies, and tactics of DA:O.



Enjoy!

I am not trying to attack your opinion. But the one thing that really offers replay value is the change you are able to make in the storyline and the outcome of it all.

Combat is just a timesink and if you honestly find combat in Bioware games more engaging than the typical MMO combat I seriously question your ability to utilize your input devices {smilie}



There simply are major gameplay differences, Party Rpgs want to create strategic combat and they are good for that. But in MMOs you are dedicating your complete control to one class. there is no time for pausing combat to make a decision, you have to think and act quickly. It is very fast paced and dynamic combat creating a certain adrenaline rush feeling.



If it is not your taste, no worries. But you cant trash someones opinion when it happens to be the truth.

[deathwing200]

Deception_2112 wrote...


And MMO's? I dislike them, couldn't stand WoW for example, the idea of having a 50 man raid with a boss like Illidan COMPLETELY oversized is just beyond me,

WoW never had 50 man raids. Max was 40, now it's down to 25.

MMOs are just like farming exercises, and everything is about "Balance" despite what Lore and etc can dictate, you can never roleplay a character you want, because say you want an overpowered character or a hero, MMO logic dictates that it can never happen.

Balance is important because you're playing with other people. When one class overshadows another in singleplayer game, it's not really important (hell, you might even get more respect from community for playing a "weaker" class), in MMO, everybody rolls a stronger class and the game basically turns into garbage. How can you not see it?

It's methodical and pointless, there's no story, no real sense of epicness. Getting that legendary weapon isn't about the lore or a sense of purpose, it's about killing the same boss/creature for that rare drop over and over again and then combining said pieces and forming a weapon.

MMOs tend not to be about the lore. Blizzard threw it out of the window years ago.

[mufuti7]

Isn't MMO's practically all grind and re-doing dungeons for better loot/higher DKP? At least here you get an actual good game the first time through, and subsequent playthroughs give you different origins and choices.

Not really, the time it takes you to level up one character is usually more than 4-5 playthroughs of a long offline rpg.

The typical dungeon grind that starts afterwards is only repetitive if you are only interested in loot and dont have fun teaming up with people and working together to achieve something - even though it is a purely virtual achievement the sensation and fun you can have is very real.



there is far more to MMO gaming than farming dungeons, if you are not into PvP most games dont offer the full package, sure. But you guys seem to forget that you dont play a MMO in the way you play a solo game - alone.

The whole purpose of MMOs is getting to know,having fun and playing together with other people.

If you have trouble making friends, obviously stick to offline games {smilie}

[mufuti7]

double post

Modifié par mufuti7, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:40 .

[mufuti7]

[Elanareon]

mufuti7 wrote...

Isn't MMO's practically all grind and re-doing dungeons for better loot/higher DKP? At least here you get an actual good game the first time through, and subsequent playthroughs give you different origins and choices.

Not really, the time it takes you to level up one character is usually more than 4-5 playthroughs of a long offline rpg.
The typical dungeon grind that starts afterwards is only repetitive if you are only interested in loot and dont have fun teaming up with people and working together to achieve something - even though it is a purely virtual achievement the sensation and fun you can have is very real.

there is far more to MMO gaming than farming dungeons, if you are not into PvP most games dont offer the full package, sure. But you guys seem to forget that you dont play a MMO in the way you play a solo game - alone.
The whole purpose of MMOs is getting to know,having fun and playing together with other people.
If you have trouble making friends, obviously stick to offline games {smilie}

That's true and all but if the community is a bunch of jack asses as well, there isn't much there now ain't it? And really now you base the social capacity of people on playing MMO's? Aren't the people who plays MMO's are usually the people who can't make real friends it real life? C'mon if think on it... If you trash social capacities of people based on games, the ones playing MMO's are the losing side because they practically live inside that game never coming out...

[Elanareon]

deathwing200 wrote...

MMOs tend not to be about the lore. Blizzard threw it out of the window years ago.

Yeah, this was the most disappointing thing about Blizzard and Warcraft. I honestly have high regards to Blizzard back then and was overjoyed they made an MMO out of Warcraft. In the end hey kinda destroyed it by making stupid stuff as lore for just adding new content in the game. Yeah it was a successful game but IMO it's broke, it ain't warcraft anymore...

[DragonRageGT]

I've actually made real life friends playing Starcraft and challenging the world together for endless nights of funny matches. Then D2 we were all together again... Lineage II is way better than WoW if you ask me, specially because I could play it for free.. I guess that Guild Wars was fun to.



I've also made great friends while really roleplaying in NWN's Permanent Worlds. And friends from all over the planet for that matter.



But the main purpose of monthly fee charged MMO is far from having ppl making friends... it is to have devs milking money. Pay-to-Play is against my religion if it means monthly fee.



I do hope Starcraft 2 keeps it as it has always been for great games and my friends are ready to go. You buy it and you play it without having to keep paying so your stuff/stats is not erased. And avoiding the grinding, farming, abusive players, cheaters, bots, scripts to automate your toon, chinese mafia controlling an area... lol... MMO is stupid and yes, repetitive to the core... that southpark movie was not a simple fiction... Second Life should be more intersting...