65 réponses à ce sujet

[Auraad]

kelsjet wrote...


Spoken like a true MMO junkie OP.

But no, your analysis is faulty. Unlike MMOs, this game is not about just one character, but instead it is about the group.

True, you played as Leliana when she is in your group, but what was that group? 1 tank, 1 CC mage, 1 Leliana ranged spec, 1 healer? What about another playthrough with 4 physical DPS classes? What about another with an all magic group? What about group synergies? What about the fact that even though there are 3 'archetypes', there is a vast variation within these archetypes as far as class and purpose is concerned.

Now true, the game doesn't lay out these variations as blatantly as say, World of Warcraft, but then again, DA:O isn't meant to be as mindless as WoW as far as class design is concerned. In most MMOs, you pick a class and that's it, any specializations within the class only truly change simple aesthetic effects of your class, e.g. the WoW mage has 3 different 'trees' which all do the same thing, you just pick which color bolt comes out your hands.

This is not the case with DA:O. For example, the DA:O mage's specializations are vastly different. Mage's can be spirit casters, elementalists, melee mages (Arcane Warriors), DoT specialists, CC specialists and pretty much every single other combination you can think of.

Now take this deep class variations and combine that with group synergy effects. Playing the game with 3 mages in your group is vastly different then playing it with 3 warriors. And I really do mean vastly different. Your entire approach to combat changes. Fights that you would try very hard to avoid with 3 mages you would welcome with 3 warriors for example. Now imagine how this option space explodes when you take into account all the different class variations. Entire group dynamics will change depending on which variation you take.

This is where the replay value will come in with DA:O. Leliana will be a melee rogue in one playthrough, a ranged specialist in another, a buff-bot extraordinaire bard in the third. She will work with 1 mage and 2 warriors one time, 3 mages another time, 1 melee rogue 1 mage and 1 tank a third time, and we can go on for a while, then multiply that with all the other characters.


But yes, I do agree that if you limit your view of DA:O and totally ignore the vastness of the class and combat system by looking at DA:O with the same brainless glasses you are forced to wear when playing an MMO, then you could think that there is no replay value. Too bad that doesn't change the fact that you would still be wrong.


So yea, go enjoy grinding your MMO. The rest of us will be here, exploring the huge class and combat system, class synergies, and tactics of DA:O.

Enjoy!

Counter: your statement is true for buildomanics only.

Most players probably only want to roleplay a (their) character and thus are more interested in an average party build that will work in most/all situations.
At any rate - independantly of builds - what it boils down to is this: get rid of the mobs asap, don't care if the warrior is a tank or dps build or if the mage is a healer or cc type.

Besides: there are way too many (useless) perks - if you have fire, why bother to take lighting? You've got shildwall and what not, there are so many different perks that ultimately do the same (flame or electrify mobs or protect you from arrows, shout, yell at mobs, there are zillion perks to stun/disable oponents (where one or two would have been enough) ). Really, ultimately it does not matter what you take ... (which actually is a good thing, because it's hard/impossibe to create a worthless build - they could have saved development time in not creating so many different/useless skills).

[Aidunno]

Shabob wrote...

 I used the respec mod so I have used lots and lots of builds/party combininations.

Isn't that part of the problem then ? If you can build a mod which gives your characters 500pt armor with no fatigue, and 100% elemental prot and breeze through the game, does this make the game "easy" as it was designed or is it due to the ability to "mod" ?

[Kalcalan]

I'll second some of the very good advice that has been posted already.



You have many opportunities for choices that make quite a difference in game. If you save and reload before major choices and test the options to see how they turn out you are ruining any replay value the game can have for you. Alternatively don't be afraid to try things you've never done before because you didn't think about them or because they looked like the "dumb" option (nothing wrong with playing a dumb character, it can be a lot of fun actually).



If you want some replay value you should try and RP your character as much as possible. Playing a good and noble character who accepts quests for some interested parties is probably not such a good idea from an RPIng perspective. What I mean is that you don't have to play through all available sidequests because you can, if you pick the ones that make sense for your character then you will only enjoy the game more. If you start thinking that your character will do something that is out of character because of foreknowledge or that your character won't do something because you know that it will certainly prevent you from completing a quest then you are falling into a routine. In that case all you need is an exhaustive walkthrough that will help you complete the game but it won't make you enjoy the game as much as you could have if you just try playing it without obsessing about completing as much as possible in a single run through the game.



If you played through all the origins before you can't complain that the game has lost its freshness. I've only completed a few of the origins and I know I won't play the same twice before completing all of them (which won't be any time soon) because the origins are really well integrated in game and make playing a character with another origin a different experience despite the fact that the main story remains the same.

[smelph]

played about 33% of the game as a melee rogue with alistair as a tank, leliana as archer and wynne as healer, typical tank/meleeDPS/rangedDPS/healz loadout out of habit from my days playing WoW.



started over last week as a mage and am now playing a mage/mage/mage/archer loadout (DPS/CC/healz/rangedDPS) and the playstyle is completely different, and not just because of my class choice. I now have to think WAY more tactically than "OK dirty fighting, move behind, backstab".



anyway, the point is that there is a certain amount of replay value from trying different group combinations and different class specs. I won't say I could play the game for 2 years that way, but it's definitely got me over 40 hours of gameplay so far and I haven't gone past 33% completion.

[Rapha13]

I played as:

1.A Living Saint, good for everyone and everything warrior

2. Sneaky Rogue killing,stealing and all other bad things you can think off

3. Arrogant Mage baning every lass he could.



Even with the mage, combat didn't change at all. I still had to sit mostly on Alistair, because AI was stupid enough to ignore simple tactics. The story, very boring on second and third play, stayed the same with very small diffrences, despite my characters picking very diffrent choices and options.

About class system. I would never ever call it deep, shallow maybe, but not deep. Without the mod, it's really easy to use most of the useful skill, based just on the description.

Specializations ? 4 skills(with ~2 passives in that) and unnoticable stat bonuses, no diffrence in the game plot or even simple interactions between fellow templars or blood mages.



Now I just hope for some FAN made, long campaign, because DLC are not worth my money and add nothing to replay value. And I don't understand, why there is no multiplayer in DA. Even half as good as the NWN multiplayer, that option would make DA worthwhile.



About this discussion on DA vs MMOs (WoW mostly here). Just stop it, there is no point and you people just show your lack of knowledge about MMOs, the nonsense arguments you give based on some ****ty game you played somewhere once. DA is a SINGLEplayer game and unless there magically appears a multiplayer option in the Main Menu of DA, everyone enjoys their "replay value" as they want. You have no right to call them wrong.

[Tripedius]

The replay value is less because of the lack of mages. I don't like Wynn and I've played with Morrigan now. We took the 'good' path.

If I want to take the 'evil' part next, Wynn isnt going to cut it as she is way to good. Alas there are no other mages to choose from. We have lots of warriors (Sten, Dog, Allistair, Sten, Ogrhen), but only two mages and two rogues. If we had one more rogue or one more mage it would improve the replay value (for me). Not taking a mage NPC isn't an option on the next run through cause I would be mageless (as I'm playing a mage now).

I can imagine that if you start with a warrior/rogue the game has replay value (as a mage). When starting as a mage, taking Morrigan, the replay value is a lot less.

[Haexpane]

Shabob wrote...

Now the time I've spent playing and beating the game was really incredible.  Now as a MMO player I admit I'm spoiled when it comes to replay value, and this game is better than 95% of other single player games when it comes to amount of content.

The reason is that I only have the choice between rogue, warrior, and mage.  Now, normally that would be three play throughs.  The problem with this game is that everyone in your party is allready one of those three classes.  I get to play a warrior every time I use Allister.  I get to play a rogue any time I use Liliana, I get to play a mage any time I use Morrigan.  By the time the game is done I've had my fill of all three classes.

Sure I can play again and take a couple different origins, choices, approvals, etc, but the basic play through is never going to change no matter what I play. 

Edited in the near future for correct name spellings.

Thanks for the update, I was going to read this bit of trivial information regarding your gaming decisions on your popular website, but you saved me the click by posting it here.

Please make even  more threads detailing when you might or might not play a game more than once.  It's truly riveting.

[rainmaker4]

but my concern on playback is that even if the origins are different and i can pick different team combinations & spell combos to change things up, arent't the quests the same? Meaning, don't you have to still do the mage tower and then to ozrammar for the dwarves etc... so if all the quests are the same then that kills replayability in my opinion big time...

[Sylixe]

Shabob wrote...

Now the time I've spent playing and beating the game was really incredible.  Now as a MMO player I admit I'm spoiled when it comes to replay value, and this game is better than 95% of other single player games when it comes to amount of content.

The reason is that I only have the choice between rogue, warrior, and mage.  Now, normally that would be three play throughs.  The problem with this game is that everyone in your party is allready one of those three classes.  I get to play a warrior every time I use Allister.  I get to play a rogue any time I use Liliana, I get to play a mage any time I use Morrigan.  By the time the game is done I've had my fill of all three classes.

Sure I can play again and take a couple different origins, choices, approvals, etc, but the basic play through is never going to change no matter what I play. 

Edited in the near future for correct name spellings.

Just so you know MMO's have ZERO replay value.  All they do is dangle a new carrot in your face every few months to keep you paying monthly fees for doing the same thing over and over. 

[Haexpane]

It's fairly obvious that the replay value is for those who really got into the characters and the "role play- classic" style.



For gameplay fans, there is no replay as the game will play out similar no matter what your PC toon is, other than you can now have 3 mages or 3 rogues instead of 2....



That's really where the complaints come from, the "oh I want to see the dialogue if I chose option B instead" crowd is more than happy to replay the game and go w/ diff moral choices.



But a great many of us are more interested in the gameplay/story mix and enjoy the idea of "I beat diablo w/ a Fighter, now I'll try a Mage"



It's just not really possible for a story heavy party based RPG like DAO. Half the game is not even combat, just talking and walking and loading screens.



It's an adjustment for those who played a lot of MMO and got used to the idea of vastly diff playstyles depending on class. But why is that a bad thing?



MMO backlash has everyone hating on every good feature MMOs pushed forward. Not WoW, MMOs. Despite urban myth, WoW did not invent MMO gameplay, they didnt invent raids, or loot, or classes, or cool downs or any of it.

[Pocketgb]

I generally don't like playing an "evil" character so I usually go neutral-good. That said when I've been replaying I've just been switching it to easy to breeze through it. Combat doesn't have much challenge to it even on nightmare so I just want to get through it asap.

Aidunno wrote...

Isn't that part of the problem then ? If you can build a mod which gives your characters 500pt armor with no fatigue, and 100% elemental prot and breeze through the game, does this make the game "easy" as it was designed or is it due to the ability to "mod" ?

The respec mod allows you to totally rebuild a character from the ground up. For me this does indeed increase replayability since if I'm bored if a certain character's build I can just give them something different. That's pretty sweet.

[Rexxean]

Shabob wrote...

Now the time I've spent playing and beating the game was really incredible.  Now as a MMO player I admit I'm spoiled when it comes to replay value, and this game is better than 95% of other single player games when it comes to amount of content.

The reason is that I only have the choice between rogue, warrior, and mage.  Now, normally that would be three play throughs.  The problem with this game is that everyone in your party is allready one of those three classes.  I get to play a warrior every time I use Allister.  I get to play a rogue any time I use Liliana, I get to play a mage any time I use Morrigan.  By the time the game is done I've had my fill of all three classes.

Sure I can play again and take a couple different origins, choices, approvals, etc, but the basic play through is never going to change no matter what I play. 

Edited in the near future for correct name spellings.

Yeah but you dont have to continue to play 15$ per month....there are both viable getaway fantasy genre

[StuartMarshall]

Love the game but even a second playthrough felt repetitive. The reason why for me? Every enemy is pre-placed, you know exactly what is coming and when. That limits replayability, especially when you've also explored most of the world and moral choices. Would like just a hint of spontanety but even the random battles on second playthrough were largely scripted the same. Hopefully some mods or expansions can change that.

[mufuti7]

Elanareon wrote...
That's true and all but if the community is a bunch of jack asses as well, there isn't much there now ain't it? And really now you base the social capacity of people on playing MMO's? Aren't the people who plays MMO's are usually the people who can't make real friends it real life? C'mon if think on it... If you trash social capacities of people based on games, the ones playing MMO's are the losing side because they practically live inside that game never coming out...

No matter how many jackasses are running around I never played a game where I was unable to find a bunch of great and interesting people to play with.
Saying a whole community is rotten is just as lazy, wrong and ignorant as saying people who play MMOs are sociopaths and never leave their basements except for when the supplies run out and the welfare checks need cashing in.
It is prejudiced, obviously the shoe fits more than just a few people in those games but more often than not it simply is untrue. You would be surprised how many highly functional, outgoing and (RL-)active people are still highly dedicated MMO gamers.

what I was saying was someone who does not like to play with others should not play online games, I did not try to adress anyone in specific, it was just a universal "you". Probably should have left that part out completely but it is true.

[macayle]

any of the total war series of games  BG/BGII so far

[Dragon Age1103]

Shabob wrote...

Now the time I've spent playing and beating the game was really incredible.  Now as a MMO player I admit I'm spoiled when it comes to replay value, and this game is better than 95% of other single player games when it comes to amount of content.

The reason is that I only have the choice between rogue, warrior, and mage.  Now, normally that would be three play throughs.  The problem with this game is that everyone in your party is allready one of those three classes.  I get to play a warrior every time I use Allister.  I get to play a rogue any time I use Liliana, I get to play a mage any time I use Morrigan.  By the time the game is done I've had my fill of all three classes.

Sure I can play again and take a couple different origins, choices, approvals, etc, but the basic play through is never going to change no matter what I play. 

Edited in the near future for correct name spellings.

 I can understand this complaint but mostly it just kind of sucks for you lol. There will be more DLC later, expansions even just be patient go rock an MMO until then. Also I'm curious to what other classes exist asie from some more direct healer?? DA:O has all the classes anygame like this would have. Just about all of wow's classes are found in this game so you lost with the only 3 class. There basically are only 3 classes & then sub-classes that branch off like any other game