292 réponses à ce sujet

[yoshibb]

agathokakological wrote...

The moment that art becomes commissioned art is when the artists lose supreme artistic license over the product.

Exactly, I don't get why people don't understand this. It's commissioned, I am paying for a particular piece of art. If you advertise something as having 16 unique endings and a satisfying resolution and then you gave me a game with 3 endings with pretty colors, then it is not what I paid for. Same as if someone asks for a portrait of their kid and I give them a painting of a tree.

[Golferguy758]

Veginator wrote...

If games are art then the ending to ME3 was like drawing a duckface on the Mona Lisa.

An atrocity.  It needs changed for the sake of the art.

You mean...like.... this!

http://t2.gstatic.co...3tImrrM4zqNKnYb

[Lancane]

Who cares what he thinks...the critics don't support the game industry the fans do...period.

[Lianaar]

Nykara wrote...
Why not?

There are a LOT of creative minds in these forums. Even if they do not know how to program an actual game that doesn't make their ideas any less creative. How is that not art?

Making games is a profession. There are natural born talents who can do it without knowing the ins and outs of a profession, but in most cases you must be aware of those skillsets that are needed. Just like people presume writing a successful book is easy, when they actually sit down to write it, they realise it merely appears to be easy and it has its own rules and principes that are worth following. It is something that can be studied. It is something that a general player is not aware of.

Making a game needs a perspective when you are generalising your customers for the main part and where you segment them in some elements. Finding the balance to appease the most people is an extremely difficult task.

Analogy (because I love them)., I have been trying to make a good muffin for ages. I never manage. I try to change this or that, but something is awlays off. While making muffins is easy, finding out what I dislike in my muffins is also easy, learning how to alter the recipe to make the muffin suit me and my friends i want to bake it for is not easy.

[BobbyTheI]

Ken seems to have made a misconception I've seen a lot of people who criticize this make: that we're upset about the ending because it didn't exactly meet our specifications for how we wanted the series to end, and so we're insisting on BioWare using our fanfics and exact wishes in order to shape a new ending.

I don't want that at all. All I want is for BioWare to look at this and say, "Hey, we dropped the ball on the ending. So let's go back to the drawing board and try to come up with something better." If I wanted them rehashing audience ideas in their game, I'd read more fanfic.

I just want the writers who wrote 99% of the greatest game series I ever played to take another look at that last 1%, and come up with something better. Not necessarily exactly what I want to see, but just something better.

[Nykara]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Nykara wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

anexanhume wrote...

http://www.theverge....-ken-levine-sad

Game makers, not game players, should retain control over the games
they make and how they end, a panel of developers said during a weekend
talk at the Smithsonian to celebrate the new exhibit, "The Art of Video
Games."
"If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the
artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," said
Paul Barnett, senior creative director at BioWare-Mythic. "Just as J.K.
Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I
don't think she should be forced to make another one.
The comment came at the end of a nearly hour-long discussion about the future of video games which took place in front of a live audience at the Smithsonian American Art Museum last week.
Following the discussion, audience members were given the opportunity to ask questions. A man named Sam asked:
"What do you think of the whole idea where community has influence on
making game story like for Paul with BioWare ...," he asked, referring
to the "current fiasco going on right now with the Mass Effect ending."
Some gamers are upset over what they believe was an unsatisfying
ending to the Mass Effect trilogy, a series that promised gamers an
ending that was in part shaped by the choices they made over the course
of playing the three titles.
Barnett's response was met with loud applause that overwhelmed Sam's response.
When the applause died down Ken Levine, founder of Irrational Games,
added that he wanted to address the question as well because, Levine
said, "I think this is an important moment."
"I think if those people got what they wanted and (BioWare) wrote
their ending they would be very disappointed in the emotional feeling
they got because ... they didn't really create it," he said. "I think
this whole thing is making me a little bit sad because I don't think
anyone would get what they wanted if that happened."

So what does everyone think? Will the ending not be 'true' if it is engineered by the fans? If so, how is that different than the feedback loop Bioware used to write subsequent games, such as including Tali and Garrus as romance options?

This is what's confusing me. Are WE trying to make a new ending or are we trying to allow Bioware to fix their ending?

I really don't want to be involved if WE are trying to make the ending. 

Why not?

There are a LOT of creative minds in these forums. Even if they do not know how to program an actual game that doesn't make their ideas any less creative. How is that not art?

Then they can go make their own game company and publish a game?

That doesn't explain why an already exsisting company should not choose to utilize this resource. Or why it would not be considered art to do so.

[BULLETWASTER]

anexanhume wrote...

Some people don't seem to realize who Levine (and Irrational Games) is. He's behind the first Bioshock game (which was hailed as having a fantastic story) and the forthcoming Bioshock Infinite, which is already many people's pick to win GOTY this year. So, while appeal to authority does not an argument make, this guy does know how to craft a story in a video game.

How is it many people's pick for GOTY?! It's only March and it hasn't been released yet!!!!

Modifié par BULLETWASTER, 19 mars 2012 - 11:30 .

[Foggle]

The Angry One wrote...

Irrational Games? The makers of Bio"Let's ripoff Fallout thematically and add in lots of misogyny"Shock?

BioShock is the spiritual successor to the System Shock series which predates the original Fallout by about three years.

Also, it's been awhile since I've played BioShock so forgive my ignorance, but how is it misogynistic? I don't remember the game even having female characters!

[Grand Wazoo]

And surprise surprise, people still treat games, especially RPG's as if they were a passive medium like books and movies.

[Priss Blackburne]

Bioshock and Mass effect are two completely different breeds of games. Both have story yes. But

Bioshock is clearly a fixed story told by the game makers with a token choice to get one of 2 different endings.

Mass Effect is a story told more fluidly with the player making key and often dramatically changing the outcome of many parts of the story.

Bioshock the story is told by the game makers.

Mass Effect the Story is presented by the game maker but ultimately created by the players choices.

[jkflipflopDAO]

Ken Levine simply can't register in his brain screwing up an ending this bad. It simply doesn't compute for him that it's as bad as it is. Let him play it, then see what he thinks.

[Huskeonkel]

anexanhume wrote...

So what does everyone think? Will the ending not be 'true' if it is engineered by the fans? If so, how is that different than the feedback loop Bioware used to write subsequent games, such as including Tali and Garrus as romance options?

I think it will be just fine. It's not like were telling BioWare exactly what to do and how to write it. At best we can give them inspirational cues and maybe they can pick up their own earlier ideas, make up new ones and so forth.

It will still be their creative juices and as such a valid BioWare product.

[Gen.Veers]

I think that if Bioware were to fix the ending, to just about anything else then it is now, it wouldn't make it our ending. It still would be up to them how to fix. Its still up to there creativity. We're not asking for them to change it to a certain ending that we've fanfictioned.

[Malchat]

It's interesting but there is only one party whose stance I'm interested in: Bioware.

If they commit to this ending and stand behind their creative choices, defend them vis a vis their advertising and their vision on the Mass Effect setting, and announce they won't be changing it, I'll accept it.

I won't be happy... but I can accept it.

However, I suspect the true problem here is not some artistic vision that is struggling against irrational audience entitlement, but rather a company cutting corners so their flagship title can be rushed out the door in time to meet corporate demands... and is now being called on it by a devoted and loyal fan base.

The lack of attention to detail is so painfully obvious that I simply cannot accept the 'hands of our Art' argument.

First deliver an ending as intended... then we'll talk artistic integrity.

Modifié par Malchat, 19 mars 2012 - 11:31 .

[Su13perfitz]

Lianaar wrote...

While I do not argue that a company can alter the product based on feedback, I much prefer if they take the feedback and incorporate it in their future work, and leave the already published one intact and alone.

The quote pretty much pointed out where the road goes if we step on it:
forcing a company to make a product they don't want to make.
Consider this: you would have been happier if ME3 was not made at all?
I am sure most people wouldn't question the right of BW never to make ME3 at all.
So then why does BW not have the right to do a ME3 they want?
 

Except that is how a free market works. Customers are willing to pay a price because they expect a work of certain level. They get less than that level and complain. If households do not get what they want from the firms they will go to another firm or stop interacting with that market. BW can make the game they want but not if they expect to stay in business for a very long time. Obviously there is always middle ground where both sides are reasonably happy. If endings like this are what BW/EA plans to keep doing then I plan to stop buying their games

[Captain_Obvious]

agathokakological wrote...

The moment that art becomes commissioned art is when the artists lose supreme artistic license over the product.

Which is pretty funny considering that only in the modern era do you have anything representing non-commissioned art.  Almost the entirety of surviving western art (Greek, Roman, Medieval) was commissioned by someone.  Or do you think that Caligula ordered a bust of himself and the artist said "screw this, I'm doing Nero." 

What is more interesting to me is how an artist maintains their artistic vision within the boundaries set by their patron.  This is the category that I feel video games fall into.  Bioware created this universe then violated their own rules in the last 10 minutes. 

[spartan5127]

I would rather have an ending that is "false" than an ending that sucks so bad that it put me in a depression for a couple days.

[Lianaar]

agathokakological wrote...

The moment that art becomes commissioned art is when the artists lose supreme artistic license over the product.

I fully disagree.
Commissioned means, I go to the company and give the money to them saying: hey, you make me THIS game. And then they deliver that game.
When someone comes to me saying: hey, I have this idea and this game, do you want to play it? That is not commissioned.
The worst you can claim is that commercials were misleading. But you can not claim you commissioned BW to make a game and they failed to comply.

[Kersca]

This is where his argument breaks down and is the true difference between works of art and video games.

"Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat. Now you can continue to build that legend through further gameplay and downloadable content."

You want to end it as you see fit, fine it's yours to do with as you please. You want to sell more chapters and content in your work of art? I'm going to go ahead and let you know what i want added or changed.

[Vhalkyrie]

Depends on whether game companies would like to sell games people would like to buy.

[Admiral-Hackett]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 All of these quotes assume games are a static medium like books or movies.  I don't sit and watch a game, especially a roleplaying game.  I interact with it.  That makes a difference. 

Thank you. Thank you so much. 

[Sparse]

I don't for a moment think that fans/customers should be dictating the exact content of ME3. But I don't see anything wrong with saying, "this really doesn't work and it ruins your entire product, please try and find a way to have another go at it". Bioware still retain control over the creative process they just think about it from a different angle.

I don't think they will rewrite or add anything significant, but I don't think there would be anything wrong with them doing so.

Modifié par Sparse, 19 mars 2012 - 11:32 .

[Evil_medved]

Ken just doesn't know. Let him play trough all 3 games and i swear to god he will be dropping million F bombs after ME3 ending.

[Alsuras]

As has been said multiple times in this very thread, you're making a product, not art. If your customers aren't satisfied by your product, then man up and fix it.

[cinderburster]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Translation: "I'm ignoring the fact that if games are art, the players are both the patrons, who have a right to ask for changes, and cooperating artists who help the work evolve. I'm also ignoring the fact that even passive viewers of art can and should express dissatisfaction with the art produced if it is crap or otherwise unfinished. I'm ignoring all that, because I just want to make money and not be criticized if I put out crap."