292 réponses à ce sujet

[Lianaar]

Su13perfitz wrote...

Except that is how a free market works. Customers are willing to pay a price because they expect a work of certain level. They get less than that level and complain. If households do not get what they want from the firms they will go to another firm or stop interacting with that market. BW can make the game they want but not if they expect to stay in business for a very long time. Obviously there is always middle ground where both sides are reasonably happy. If endings like this are what BW/EA plans to keep doing then I plan to stop buying their games

So then why are there not 100s and 100s of mass effect sort of rpg games on the market? Obviously there is a potential of profit there. Still none jumped in to supply games.
I can confess I would buy any games of the genre, because I am a fan of the genre itself. But still I have to wait years to have something suitable. Heck, I have to wait years to have anything, be it suitable or not suitable. If BW stays in business and is in the few companies that provides those games, then I guess they know how things work.

I would be happy to see that free marker in action and new companies bringing better and better games to me, where I can sit down and decide, which of the... lets say 3 at hand I want to play right now. 

So BW can make the games they want, and they can expect that they stay in business because a lot of people, enough people to sustain them, are willing to buy. And maybe eventually other companies will notice a market niche and try to cover it and then BW can respond with trying to cover that part of the market too or position itself differently.

In current market it is rather odd to claim that BW is out of business. It is not.

[Nykara]

Dire Wombat wrote...

Levine's argument sounds reasonable at first glance... You wouldn't expect the author of a novel to re-write the ending of their book to fit fan consensus, would you? This "rights of the author" argument against wanting Bioware to change their story fails, I think, because of two important differences in medium.

1) Interactivity. A long-standing feature, perhaps the main selling point, of Bioware's games has been that they encourage the consumer to become an active participant in creating their version of the story. I think this complicates the idea of "ownership" of the work. There's something disingenuous about benefiting financially from an audience sold on the idea of cooperating with the authors to tell a story, and then insisting on unquestionable authorial control when you deliver something so enormously unacceptable to your fanbase. You shouldn't expect to have your cake and eat it too.

2) Malleability. Modern game development renders game stories immensely changeable; companies are constantly selling DLC that adds to or changes their stories. You don't see novelists putting out a book and, at the end, appending a pitch to purchase additional chapters, epilogues, or an altered cast of characters for added micropayments. That video games now do exactly this undermines the argument for holding their stories immutable as creative works. Again, if you contend that your story is malleable when you wish to profit from altering it, but hold it as sacrosanct when your audience demands changes, it's hard to give much weight to the argument.

This is not entirely true either. Authors have in fact reserrected characters in novels and stories before -because- the fans 'demanded' it. It happens all the time. Authors have also go on to explain their writting better when fans have been unable to understand where the story was headed. Publishers also demand - on a regular basis that an auther changes parts in stories if they see fit also.

[Aidan Rhane]

As far as I'm concerned, I just want the endings that were advertised. What we got wasn't remotely close. In fact, it was completely what they said it would not be. If an artist offered to sell you a painting of an apple, but after you paid for it and got it home it was actually an orange, you'd be damn within your rights to ask for your money back or ask him to fix it. Seems Devs are increasingly buying into this nonsense their products are art above all else, and consumer satisfaction is irrelevant.

[LegatoSkyheart]

Gosh, this was the type of consequences we should have got in Mass Effect.
Because of the big uproar that was made for Video Games to be Art, We are now faced with a Very Bad Ending to a Trilogy and it's Defense is that "It's Art! and if you don't like it, you just don't understand it!" statement.

What a load of Pretentious Bull.

[DemGeth]

Laughing at people that think Bioshock is a ripoff of Fallout

[ThePanzer99]

I bought ME3 at best buy. Not an art gallery. Not the Louvre. Fricking Best Buy. Next to ratchet and clank. I respect game designer's abilities and creativity but Leonardo DaVinci they are not.

[Sepharih]

Foggle wrote...

It's important to remember that BioShock had an absolutely terrible ending. If Levine were to condemn ME 3's ending, he'd also run the risk of admitting that his own game was heavily flawed in the same way.

.....Actually, that's not a bad point.  

dointime85 wrote...

Even if you believe that the artists vision must never be changed (which is an extremely limited point of view and would mean that a lot of great stage plays would not exist in their current form since they were changed as a consequence of audience reactions):

Why shouldn't Bioware be able to say: the ending that came with the game was our vision, but due to popular demand, we add a completely optional, alternative ending to the game as a present to those fans who were dissatisfied for reasons which we understand well.

How would artistic expression be compromised in this scenario?

+1  Director's cuts, alternate cuts, and alternate endings are pretty much a staple of films and home video at this point....so why not .

[Fame-KIllz]

Kojima wanted to kill off Snake at the end of MGS4 but after it was opposed by many people he changed his mind.

Fans should have an influence imo.

[MPSai]

So what'd you think of Bioshock 2, Ken? Was it keeping with your artistic vision?

[devSin]

And what about movies with alternate endings or that receive extensive adjustments and edits due to pre-screening?

Nobody is asking to have their own personal ending inserted into the game. People are telling BioWare how unsatisfied they are with the current ending, giving feedback about what they had expected given all the claims made by BioWare prior to release, and asking BioWare if there's anything they can do to alter or expand the sequence.

[Fireblader70]

The film industry makes changes based on test screenings all the time (I'm in that industry, so I know). It usually turns out for the best - 'Wrath of Khan' was originally going to kill off Spock, but the fans intervened. 'The Dark Knight Rises' recently made Bane's voice clearer for the audience to understand, after complaints. They turned out for the better.

Just about every film that's at risk of losing so much gets test screenings. Why should video games be different? At the end of the day, Bioware isn't making the game for themselves, they are making it for the audience. It's a technique that's been highly successful in the past, and I think it should be implemented in this industry much more often.

There's no use saying 'oh, it's art, so it mustn't be changed' if no one likes the damn thing. There would be no point to the product in that case.

Essentially, the only precedent developers have to fear is that of keeping their promises. That is the crux of this problem - not just 'oh I don't like the ending'.

[Deschi]

Games can be art, but somehow i got the feeling here that the true art could not unfold because of a time deadline and maybe other pressures... this all should just give the artist and developers the right back to be creative again and to get enough time to finish their games

[jkflipflopDAO]

MPSai wrote...

So what'd you think of Bioshock 2, Ken? Was it keeping with your artistic vision?

Ouch. Pure 2K cash-grab there. What a terribad sequel. 

[SpectreVerner]

But his games aren't about choice. That was the entire point of Bioshock, so I don't think he has any real advice to give towards games with stories made by the developers, but built by the players.

[RedShft]

All this comes down to is this: 

Bioware is providing a product for customers to use. The customers have every right to reject this product or ask for it to be amended and changed if they wished. 

If the producer of the product decides to ignore customer feedback, then it's their loss.

If game makers ignore their customers, and doesn't provide the proper alterations, they will lose their customer base and ultimately even their business.

It's a fact that the gaming industry is driven by MONEY. As much as Ken Levine would like to think it's driven by creativity and innovation, i'm afraid he's wrong.

Is this entitlement? No. Is this capitalism? Yes.

[Vhalkyrie]

LenabotSE wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Irrational Games? The makers of Bio"Let's ripoff Fallout thematically and add in lots of misogyny"Shock?

Because I care what anybody from that outfit says.

Ha!

In fairness, though, the misogyny mostly branches off from the time period in which BioShock was set.  Females play a major role in the System Shock games.  Especially the villain, who is arguably one of the most powerful badgirls ever.  Her apt description was "evil AI space-dominatrix."  An inspiration behind the creation of Glados, actually. Lovely character.  So much better than that Fontaine douche.

And since System Shock 2 is basically one of my most favorite-ist games ever, I can't find it in my heart to disagree with ferocity.  But I do disagree with him.  I don't think he's ever had to deal with this situation before, because most of his games are pretty solid.  And aren't huge blockbuster trilogies with sudden wall-banger endings.  

System Shock 2 had an open ending, but it was actually done well because, even though it was effectively a "defeat" after the player's hard work, it totally went with the theme of "you cannot stop the goddess-like AI who wants to rip your spine out."

TheAngryOne was referring to BioShock - not System Shock.  Big difference!  SHODAN rules!  My favorite AI villaness of all time.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 19 mars 2012 - 11:44 .

[Panicomatic]

I have a hard time defining this concept in my own mind. It is my own opinion, and one that would be very difficult to convince me otherwise of, that the ending was a rush job, a "spray-paint paint job" if you will.

And if the game was rushed to meet a deadline, then the art was most definitely effected by the pressure to please investors. So in a sense I feel that the "art" loses some of its artistic value at the point to become a product.

So on one hand you have the company pushing the "art" out for distribution, and now after the sale we have the fanbase requesting that the art be changed, based on our expectations of the product that was sold to us.

Is before the point of creation the only acceptable time to request an artist change the art? And which is it really; is it more art or more product? Since this product was sold to us under false promises of what the game will provide the consumer do we not have a right to request that the game does provide what we were told we would get and effectively force the artist to change the art?

I'm rather wishy-washy on this topic because I can see both points of view. Ultimately though, if changing the ending created positive revenue in the short term and the long term I have no doubt in my mind that the art would be forsaken for profit. That makes me inclined to think of this game as more of a product then an art piece. Your thoughts?

[DiabolicallyRandom]

Aganerral wrote...

Creators have the right to end their works as they see fit.

We have a right to voice our disappointment. I'm sure that JK Rowling got plenty of positive and negative feedback about the end of Harry Potter. George Lucas has gotten lots of feedback on his changes and additions to Star Wars.

Bioware has the right as creators to tell us tough luck, this is how we want it to end and we're not changing it. They also have the right to add any content they choose, either more that builds on what they did or changes based on fan feedback.

We have the right never to buy their products again.

This. 1000 times this. I don't understand why the naysayers seem to be unable to wrap their heads around this concept. Yes, they "can do whatever they want, its their work.". Does that remove our right to complain or decry their "artistic choices"? Not even in the slightest.

[Thornne]

I don't care if they think it is art. I don't care if it is art. To me it is a product I paid money for. It does not meet my expectations. I want to know what the company I bought it from is going to do to make this right. They may decide to do nothing, of course, and that is their decision to make.

But don't tell me a for-profit corporation is going to toss out future revenue because their artistic sensibilities have been offended. If they don't make a new ending, it will be a financial decision.

[joe1852]

lets start bashing this guy and say his games are crap

[webrakefornobody]

Heretic19 wrote...

I don't see a problem with it as long as they themselves want to change it. If they do not want to, then it is their right not to. It's honestly not the worst ending of all time, but people love this game so much that they don't want it to end on such a sloppy note.

this.
i'd like to see them release a "director's cut" with the full ending dialogue and additional scenes that fill the big blanks - like joker picking up the squad etc. nothing new, nothing rewritten, just a lil bit more love and detail.

[DemGeth]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

MPSai wrote...

So what'd you think of Bioshock 2, Ken? Was it keeping with your artistic vision?

Ouch. Pure 2K cash-grab there. What a terribad sequel. 

Yet Minervra's Den was probably the best dlc released this console gen.  

[DaosX]

Croakamancer wrote...
Irrational Games? Are they still around?

You're joking, right? Watch the stuff for Bioshock Infinite. I wasn't really a fan of the original (although I admire the amount of dedication that went into it) - still not a fan of shooters in enclosed spaces - however, Infinite looks amazing...and, like Bioware, if there's one thing Irrational knows how to do, it's weave deep and emotional storylines.

[anexanhume]

I don't know that the question of choice is necessarily something you can use to discredit his argument. You can dislike an ending regardless of whether it was based on choice or a completely linear ending. It can be objectively bad in either case.