292 réponses à ce sujet

[Deventh]

Nu-Nu wrote...

JK Rowling wanted to kill off Harry Potter but she didn't because people begged her not to. That reference fail. Fans can influence an author's decision.

Exactly.

[Sepharih]

Fireblader70 wrote...

The film industry makes changes based on test screenings all the time (I'm in that industry, so I know). It usually turns out for the best - 'Wrath of Khan' was originally going to kill off Spock, but the fans intervened. 'The Dark Knight Rises' recently made Bane's voice clearer for the audience to understand, after complaints. They turned out for the better.

Just about every film that's at risk of losing so much gets test screenings. Why should video games be different? At the end of the day, Bioware isn't making the game for themselves, they are making it for the audience. It's a technique that's been highly successful in the past, and I think it should be implemented in this industry much more often.

There's no use saying 'oh, it's art, so it mustn't be changed' if no one likes the damn thing. There would be no point to the product in that case.

Essentially, the only precedent developers have to fear is that of keeping their promises. That is the crux of this problem - not just 'oh I don't like the ending'.

I agree with you in essence, but your examples aren't very good (Spock WAS killed off in Wrath of Khan and this was later retconned in sequels, and TDKR isn't released yet...so I wouldn't make assumptions yet).
I also think testscreenings can do harm as well...but that they do have a place.

Sorry, just needed to point those things out.

[Bendok]

I think the ending to ME3 would have been fine if it was a linear game, games like Ken Levine makes...you are telling a direct story that the player simply experiences and has very little input into. Mass Effect is entirely different. the ending should have taken more of our 90+ hours of decision making into account. And that's ignoring the plot holes.

[Darthlawsuit]

Nu-Nu wrote...

JK Rowling wanted to kill off Harry Potter but she didn't because people begged her not to. That reference fail. Fans can influence an author's decision.

The fans have as much control as the creator. Sometimes the creator wants to do something just for the sake of doing it and not for any reason. Fans can correct this and make it better for everyone in the end,.

[Artking3]

Ken Levine misunderstood our stance. We don't want BW to make an ending based on our laundry list of fan-fic endings. We want BW to fix an ending which has no meaningful choice or explanation, offers no real resolution, and is riddled with plot-holes and poor literary devices. We want BW to have actual differing endings influenced by the choices made in the game, as promised by them in interviews and print, instead of 16 ending(s) differing only by color palate and minutiae.

[tjmax]

Sepharih wrote...

Based on current information, Bioware doesn't want to fix their ending because this is the ending they intended.

I fully support retakemasseffect and am holding the line, but this I admit is where I think we need to be undestanidng that bioware is in kind of a bad spot.  I don't think it's crazy for them to change the ending based on feedback as I would view it simply as accepting and responding to critiscism....but on some level the saying holds true that "you can't please everyone".  IE....they can't make everyone their own ending (but maybe they could at least satisfy some people).
In the end...it might be just be that this is where fanworks have to come in to pick up the pieces...but I'm still hoping that they might listen.

And they may.

 There is an extreemly large fan base looking for a responce at some point, not a "Yes we will!" but a definitive answer to what we are asking for.

Stalling is not going to work here since Its apparently not going to blow over quickly and is growing in numbers as the days drag on. A non-responce will just drag it out that much longer. Hoping it just goes away is rather foolish at this point.

One huge difference between this and any other player protests is the fact that this group of fans spans many platforms, is an extreemly large % of the players that spans much larger then just those taking polls and posting. The decision to change or decision not to will definatly effect future sales of DLC's and future games. 


*fixed typos*

Modifié par tjmax, 19 mars 2012 - 11:53 .

[Cyneburh]

MPSai wrote...

So what'd you think of Bioshock 2, Ken? Was it keeping with your artistic vision?

lol

Like others, I didn't like the endings not because they were depressing and didn't have puppies and rainbows, but because they came out of left field and they didn't answer my questions.  Plain and simple.  Sadly, I don't think changing the ending will solve everyone's problems, because what has been seen cannot be unseen.  Yes I think writers should obviously have control over their own work.  Sure, they can do whatever they want.  They just shouldn't act surprised when people offer their inevitable opinions.  


   

[Su13perfitz]

Lianaar wrote...

Su13perfitz wrote...

Except that is how a free market works. Customers are willing to pay a price because they expect a work of certain level. They get less than that level and complain. If households do not get what they want from the firms they will go to another firm or stop interacting with that market. BW can make the game they want but not if they expect to stay in business for a very long time. Obviously there is always middle ground where both sides are reasonably happy. If endings like this are what BW/EA plans to keep doing then I plan to stop buying their games

So then why are there not 100s and 100s of mass effect sort of rpg games on the market? Obviously there is a potential of profit there. Still none jumped in to supply games.
I can confess I would buy any games of the genre, because I am a fan of the genre itself. But still I have to wait years to have something suitable. Heck, I have to wait years to have anything, be it suitable or not suitable. If BW stays in business and is in the few companies that provides those games, then I guess they know how things work.

I would be happy to see that free marker in action and new companies bringing better and better games to me, where I can sit down and decide, which of the... lets say 3 at hand I want to play right now. 

So BW can make the games they want, and they can expect that they stay in business because a lot of people, enough people to sustain them, are willing to buy. And maybe eventually other companies will notice a market niche and try to cover it and then BW can respond with trying to cover that part of the market too or position itself differently.

In current market it is rather odd to claim that BW is out of business. It is not.

I never said BW would definitely go out of business. Also this one indicident is unlikely to drive them out of business but they certainly have lost money on it already. Moreover you forgot to understand that people can just leavethe market all together. I am stating that many customers are upset. If they continue to make more and more customers upset well you have no customers left. Also there are several limiting factors on game production. Do they have enough capital to make a game, can they make smaller games with more ROI, do they have technical skill required to make the game, do they have the time required to make the game. Also many games offer character driven stories with a lot of customazation bioware is only the most obvious in america to do this. Also games that feature the same writing tend to be on smaller scale due to tighter budget and time constraints.

[Johnnycide]

Running with the comparison to a painting. If Mass Effect is art and Bioware is the artist, Mass Effect is more akin to a blank canvas. Sure the artist is limited by their talents and their paints (not an excuse for using 3 colors for the endings), so we of course expect there to be limitations in what can emerge, we don't expect Shepard to ride an Elcor into battle guns ablazing (which is to say we known the limitations of what is acceptable). The decisions in Mass Effect from Bioware is like the artist saying here I have Red or Blue for the sky, here I have Green or Yellow for the landscape, the person in the painting should it be male or female, what other people would you like to include, etc. and step by step we're making the painting along side them using their skills and the tools they have made available. What the current "alleged" endings are would be Bioware taking everything you made with them, throwing that out and asking you to choose from three generic paintings they already have made because they believe this is what the painting should look like, invalidating all the previous decisions.

[GreyLord]

I have been a bioware fanboy. I've NEVER been a fan of the bioshock series. They were at the forefront of this entire DRM stuff that forced me from playing some games on PC and moved me over to a console (PS3) where I don't have to worry about "authenticating" and being online to play a single player game.

They are actually on my...you guys are...well I can't say those words here...but I'm no fan of bioshock. Many others are though...sooooooo.......

Edit: On the actual topic, I can see Video Game as art, but more like art when it was on a commission basis.  Artists got paid to create certain pieces of art.  If the person who paid for it didn't like it...the artist had to return the money...or DO IT OVER until the customer was satisfied. 

Video games can be art, but like the artists who worked on commission the same should apply.  If they want to create video game art otherwise, they can, but they shouldn't be surprised if no one buys it.

Modifié par GreyLord, 19 mars 2012 - 11:51 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Nobody asking them to write our endings, just... write... something better?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

RedShft wrote...

All this comes down to is this: 

Bioware is providing a product for customers to use. The customers have every right to reject this product or ask for it to be amended and changed if they wished. 

If the producer of the product decides to ignore customer feedback, then it's their loss.

If game makers ignore their customers, and doesn't provide the proper alterations, they will lose their customer base and ultimately even their business.

It's a fact that the gaming industry is driven by MONEY. As much as Ken Levine would like to think it's driven by creativity and innovation, i'm afraid he's wrong.

Is this entitlement? No. Is this capitalism? Yes.

Exactly. Bioware had a vision. But in order for that vision to get made, they needed a method to recoup costs, which means they are extraordinarily dependent on consumers in order to produce their art. If the consumers are unhappy, the art doesn't get made.

This is different from a novel (for example). A writer may risk losing his audience, but in order to keep creating his "art" (the novel) all he needs is: pen, paper, ideas. Bioware does not have this luxury.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 19 mars 2012 - 11:50 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Theres a difference between an ending that disappoints some people (which will always happen) and an ending that is fully ridden with plot holes, inconsistencies and broken developer promisses.  I consider these endings more of a literally broken segment of the game then just a disappointing bit of writing.  Developers patch broken games. 

I love Levines work, but I think hes painting this far too black and white without any context of just how ****ed up the endings actually are.  Its like having a book and the last few pages look like they were typed by a dyslexic person.  Yes, its seriously that bad. 

[Lianaar]

DiabolicallyRandom wrote...
I don't understand why the naysayers seem to be unable to wrap their heads around this concept. Yes, they "can do whatever they want, its their work.". Does that remove our right to complain or decry their "artistic choices"? Not even in the slightest.

You are fully entitled to your opinion. You are fully entiteld to voicing your opinion.
The question is more wether people should act on your opinion.
There are clearer cases and less clear cases. 
As others said: if the ending is changed, what's up with people who bought the game already and liked it? 
Then they would be cheated. Then they need to make a movement to anti-change the ending and return to the original? Then what? 
What if the numbers are equal? And I am not speaking of this very game, I am speaking generally.

The people in the quote asked themselves how much buyers of the video games should be allowed to influence already published work and "force" companies to give up their vision. Anyone answering this with a single word instantly is probably not giving enough thought to the topic. It is not a simple matter namely. Because an answer always leads to more questions.

So if we say yes, they must change because economy demands it/they are for fans/they have the moral obligation/whatever reason you have for it, then the next step is, that if they make 2 parts of a triology, they must make the third too, as they implied that htey will make 3 and if the story remains unfinished, then they lied to you, which is morally questionable. Thus must be remedied. Now if they MUST make the 3rd part of the triology they promised, then they must make what you percieved as promised, which is ok, however different people percieved different things as promised, so how should the 3rd part be filled with. What if the fan base is divided, which part should be listened to? Is it purchase power that decides, or should there be two versions of the games, so both fan bases are satisfied? What I want to show is, that changing the ending based on fanbase demands has long time consequences that influence not only BioWare but gaming industry as a whole.

[Zofiya]

Whether or not a game is art is irrelevant; it is first and foremost a product, intended to be sold. All companies, whether they make games, or clothes, or kitchen utensils, are subject to consumer review. That's how the free market works. With ME3, we expected certain things, and those expectations were not met. Maybe that was part of the "artistic vision" of the game, but breach of consumer trust will negatively impact BioWare's ability to sell products in the future, which is something they should be concerned about, not as artists, but as a company.

LOL at the Harry Potter example. If Harry Potter had ended with Voldemort giving Harry the choice of three different spells, and each spell would kill both of them, but one spell would make muggles and wizards the same, one spell would destroy Hogwarts and kill half of Harry's friends, and one spell would take away all magic... and then you got to pick which ending you wanted to read...

The fandom would have imploded more than it did with just the epilogue, and that was pretty epic by itself.

[archanesoldier]

I do not want to force Bioware to create an ending they do not want to make. What I want is for Bioware to either acknowledge their ending was rushed poorly executed nonsense and fix it, or say they are content with the ending and are not going to change it. Depending on their answer I will make my decision as a consumer on whether I will buy any future products from Bioware.

[MarauderESP]

uhmmm maybe becouse i buy a game, and u see if idont like that end (in this case of course) or the game, i will buy another one from those developers? nop, ill invest my money on something else, u see if there is no money no more crap can come from that developer...

u know space magic is affecting a lot of ppl these days

[Esoretal]

I'm a writer and illustrator working in the comics industry myself, and honestly, if I were in a situation like this where my own artistic vision collided with the desires of the fans, I would love to take in fan ideas. It shows that they love the characters and that they really do care about what happens to them. Does this make me a despicable pawn of the masses if I take fans' suggestions, filter them through the lens of my story, and make changes? No. It makes me a storyteller who is willing to collaborate on a larger scale. And often, fans have a lot of fantastic ideas I wouldn't be able to come up with on my own.

Who says that a story created from both the original author and the collaborative passion of thousands of fans isn't art? I think it would be something beautiful.

Modifié par Esoretal, 19 mars 2012 - 11:52 .

[RULost119]

I haven't read everything here, so please forgive me if I'm restating something someone already said...

In the case of a Bioshock or Uncharted or something like that, I wouldn't have been upset as much as I am. In those games, I am playing a character that I have no decision power with. I am guiding him down the path he/she is destined to follow. Mass Effect differs in that we were allowed to shape the destiny of not only our character and the characters around him/her, but an entire galaxy over the course of three games and (in my case) well over 100hrs of playtime. To put out an ending like the one we were given deserved to be called out. I feel we have the right to ask not so much for a "happy" ending as we do an ending that makes sense.

[kyrieee]

I think I actually agree with him.
Believe me, I hate the ending just as much as everyone else here. I beat the game well over a week ago and I have barely thought about anything else since then. However, he's right that changing the ending to suit the will of the audience won't set things right.

When tragic things happen in your life, you want them undone so badly. This is not quite on that level, but the feeling is similar. But what's done is done. It's a travesty, but ending DLC 5 months from now won't change that and it will just upset even more people. At some point you just have to let go and move on.

[Tyrzun]

Ken Levine has now been put on my don't buy from him list. Congrats Ken.

When you go to a Burger place because they advertise selling you the best burger with all the trimming you want, you choose your trimmings. You place your order, give them your money and then... they serve you a taco. They then tell you their justification is they wanted to serve you a taco. How, dare you not enjoy their taco.

That's exactly what Bioware did. It's that simple. ANY other business such as a burger joint would be apologizing and giving you "FREE" stuff for the "mistake" of screwing up your order.

ME 3 was promised to have specific endings based on your ME 1 and ME 2 choices. Casey and Mike, both producers promised, and said giving you A, B, C generic endings would be wrong. They also, said all loose ends would be tied up.

Burger ordered, taco delivered.  It doesn't matter how good the Taco is, that's not the point.

Modifié par Tyrzun, 19 mars 2012 - 11:53 .

[xistfirat]

we're not forcing them any ending, we're just trying to make them change the ending to something else they choose. and another thing that's really important is, the reason behind this change is not how it's sad (for some people, it is but it really shouldn't be), the reason behind this revolt is the ending being a huge and unnecessary deus ex machina, plus it has tons of plot holes.

it's broken, and we want them to fix it.

[Panicomatic]

I loved Bioshock and it's story was amazing, but it was completely linear and only gave you choice through choosing to harvest adam.

[Sepharih]

Lianaar wrote...
As others said: if the ending is changed, what's up with people who bought the game already and liked it? 
Then they would be cheated. Then they need to make a movement to anti-change the ending and return to the original? Then what? 
What if the numbers are equal? And I am not speaking of this very game, I am speaking generally.

How about we just keep both?  Let the player choose which one they want to experience.  There are about 4 versions of the film Blade Runner in popular circulation....so I don't see much difference.

[Luigitornado]

Tyrzun wrote...

Ken Levine has now been put on my don't buy from him list. Congrats Ken.

When you go to a Burger place because they advertise selling you the best burger with all the trimming you want, you choose your trimmings. You place your order, give them your money and then... they serve you a taco. They then tell you their justification is they wanted to serve you a taco. How, dare you not enjoy their taco.

That's exactly what Bioware did. It's that simple. ANY other business such as a burger joint would be apologizing and giving you "FREE" stuff for the "mistake" of screwing up your order.

ME 3 was promised to have specific endings based on your ME 1 and ME 2 choices. Casey and Mike, both producers promised, and said giving you A, B, C generic endings would be wrong. They also, said all loose ends would be tied up.

Burger ordered, taco delivered.  It doesn't matter how good the Taco is, that's not the point.

Except buying a video game isn't the same as ordering fast food.