When Shepard shows more emotion over the VS being injured than a romanced, dying Thane, there may be a problem. As has been stated, Thane's death as a friend is pretty awesome and a tearjerker. Thane's death if he was your LI is frustrating. Very little change in dialog, one talk before his death scene, and no Paramour achievement, complete with Garrus standing at the memorial that Thane's name was just added to and talking about whoever died on Virmire. No one acknowledges his death, and Shepard is hit on by Samantha, Diana, and possibly Kaidan directly afterwards, which gives a further impression that his romance didn't 'count' and you should try for these characters instead.
I personally wasn't looking for a 'miracle cure'. I was hoping for a treatment, and expecting him to die. While I'm happy from a friend perspective, they really dropped the ball with his romance, hence why people are upset.
Shepard's reaction to Squaddies Deaths are kinda all over the place this game XD Shepard can literally mow down Wrex,Mordin and the VS... and it barely phases them
This would probably be better addressed in the Protest Romanced Thane's treatment in ME3 thread. Anyway, my wife romanced Thane in ME2, and I've been closely following her dismay at what happened and what is going on with the Thanemancers, and I guess I'll chip in with what seems to be the main problems here:
1) A romanced Thane is 95% the same as a friend or bromance Thane. There is one or two extra dialogue options for him, the rest is exactly the same as if he was not romanced.
2) His death may look cool and have weight in the circumstances, but his death makes no impact on anyone after the fact. When Mordin, Legion, or anyone else dies, everyone has something to say about it. When Thane dies, everyone is talking about how nice it is to have Kaiden/Ashley back on board. Thane is never mentioned or shown again for the rest of the game except when you kill Kai-Leng, which prompts the same response whether romanced or not.
3) Thane is the only character not to get a Codex entry at all.
4) Thane's character when romanced in ME2 is a very different character from a non-romanced Thane. He goes from being prepared for death without regrets, to genuine fear of dying because of the life he has found with Femshep and the life he wants to have with her. In ME3, no matter what you did, Thane is once again reserved to dying and your decisions have made no impact on his character.
EDIT: 5) Your continued romance with Thane does also not trigger the Paramour achievement, which is in itself a huge disservice to the Thanemancers.
There are other reasons as well, but like the Retake Mass Effect movement, I think Thane's "Better Romance" movement along with Jacob's same effort is often being thrown aside as "They just want a happy ending" when that's really not what the core issue is at all. It's again the same neglect and poor writing the ending suffers from, and one of the writers have admitted to the fact that romanced Thane got lost somewhere in the process.
\\
I think this is actually a great counterpoint to my original argument, and I'm impressed to see it so well articulated. I still stand by my contention that Thane went out like a man, in the most fitting possible way, but I can see how he deserved more respect and acknowlegment from the others. My guess would be that it was an oversight, or that some content got cut. I think, as you pointed out, that the return of the ME1 survivor stepped on his death plotwise, and I can see the point that the speed with which everyone moved on wasn't fair to a great character. And actually, come to think of it, I notice that you didn't suggest that he should have been cured, merely that his death (and life) should have been more developed.
All the ME2 characters that can or do die in ME3 are really well done in my humble opinion. Thane had the most action oriented scene for sure and his whole "LOL Kai Leng can't kill a target guarded by a guy near deaths door" thing was epic. I can see how you might have gotten shafted if you romanced though, from what I've seen there wasn't enough change in the dialogue. The problem with Thane having to little screen time though is true for pretty much all ME2 characters that don't join your squad.
This would probably be better addressed in the Protest Romanced Thane's treatment in ME3 thread. Anyway, my wife romanced Thane in ME2, and I've been closely following her dismay at what happened and what is going on with the Thanemancers, and I guess I'll chip in with what seems to be the main problems here:
1) A romanced Thane is 95% the same as a friend or bromance Thane. There is one or two extra dialogue options for him, the rest is exactly the same as if he was not romanced.
2) His death may look cool and have weight in the circumstances, but his death makes no impact on anyone after the fact. When Mordin, Legion, or anyone else dies, everyone has something to say about it. When Thane dies, everyone is talking about how nice it is to have Kaiden/Ashley back on board. Thane is never mentioned or shown again for the rest of the game except when you kill Kai-Leng, which prompts the same response whether romanced or not.
3) Thane is the only character not to get a Codex entry at all.
4) Thane's character when romanced in ME2 is a very different character from a non-romanced Thane. He goes from being prepared for death without regrets, to genuine fear of dying because of the life he has found with Femshep and the life he wants to have with her. In ME3, no matter what you did, Thane is once again reserved to dying and your decisions have made no impact on his character.
EDIT: 5) Your continued romance with Thane does also not trigger the Paramour achievement, which is in itself a huge disservice to the Thanemancers.
There are other reasons as well, but like the Retake Mass Effect movement, I think Thane's "Better Romance" movement along with Jacob's same effort is often being thrown aside as "They just want a happy ending" when that's really not what the core issue is at all. It's again the same neglect and poor writing the ending suffers from, and one of the writers have admitted to the fact that romanced Thane got lost somewhere in the process.
THIS.
yep. OP, if you really want to know why people are upset about it, this would be the post to read and consider.
Thane died a hero, and held off a much stronger and better equipped assassin in the process. His death was very well written (as were Mordin's and Legion's) and that's why they didn't disappoint me. In a war of that scale I knew a couple of deaths were coming, and they were all handled exceptionally.
I agree that his death was well written... but I'm pretty sure what upsets people the most is the lack of dialog afterwards. Mordin and Legion both got the companions reactions... Thane, not so much. He was completely forgotten for the most part. I also totally and completely agree with the_red_one.
All the ME2 characters that can or do die in ME3 are really well done in my humble opinion. Thane had the most action oriented scene for sure and his whole "LOL Kai Leng can't kill a target guarded by a guy near deaths door" thing was epic. I can see how you might have gotten shafted if you romanced though, from what I've seen there wasn't enough change in the dialogue. The problem with Thane having to little screen time though is true for pretty much all ME2 characters that don't join your squad.
Except it's stupid cause you kill your villian's credibility at the get go.
You could have had plenty of ways to Give thane a last moment of glory and make Kai a credible threat... BW however simply went for one.
Thane needed to die. It was cinematic an glorious. That prayer was heartwrenching and when Koliat said "He was praying for you (sic)." I got all choked up. I'm an atheist, but the idea of a deeply religious man spending his dying breath on wishes for my... sanctuary, is still quite moving.
The best thing they could have done, that they didn't, was have Koliat join the Normandy crew as a polar opposite of Thane. He made piece with the demons of his youth since you last saw him and is no longer angry about his father's death. He would have made a great preacher-gunslinger type contrary to the assassin that his father was. Pity BW didn't think of that.
Thane had to die. Unlike Shepard, you don't influence other characters destinies barring direct intervention. So he either died of his disease or went out amazingly like he did.
Besides, his death was the closest to having me in tears. (Mordin died in 2, so don't judge me!)
This would probably be better addressed in the Protest Romanced Thane's treatment in ME3 thread. Anyway, my wife romanced Thane in ME2, and I've been closely following her dismay at what happened and what is going on with the Thanemancers, and I guess I'll chip in with what seems to be the main problems here:
1) A romanced Thane is 95% the same as a friend or bromance Thane. There is one or two extra dialogue options for him, the rest is exactly the same as if he was not romanced.
2) His death may look cool and have weight in the circumstances, but his death makes no impact on anyone after the fact. When Mordin, Legion, or anyone else dies, everyone has something to say about it. When Thane dies, everyone is talking about how nice it is to have Kaiden/Ashley back on board. Thane is never mentioned or shown again for the rest of the game except when you kill Kai-Leng, which prompts the same response whether romanced or not.
3) Thane is the only character not to get a Codex entry at all.
4) Thane's character when romanced in ME2 is a very different character from a non-romanced Thane. He goes from being prepared for death without regrets, to genuine fear of dying because of the life he has found with Femshep and the life he wants to have with her. In ME3, no matter what you did, Thane is once again reserved to dying and your decisions have made no impact on his character.
EDIT: 5) Your continued romance with Thane does also not trigger the Paramour achievement, which is in itself a huge disservice to the Thanemancers.
There are other reasons as well, but like the Retake Mass Effect movement, I think Thane's "Better Romance" movement along with Jacob's same effort is often being thrown aside as "They just want a happy ending" when that's really not what the core issue is at all. It's again the same neglect and poor writing the ending suffers from, and one of the writers have admitted to the fact that romanced Thane got lost somewhere in the process.
I think this is actually a great counterpoint to my original argument, and I'm impressed to see it so well articulated. I still stand by my contention that Thane went out like a man, in the most fitting possible way, but I can see how he deserved more respect and acknowlegment from the others. My guess would be that it was an oversight, or that some content got cut. I think, as you pointed out, that the return of the ME1 survivor stepped on his death plotwise, and I can see the point that the speed with which everyone moved on wasn't fair to a great character. And actually, come to think of it, I notice that you didn't suggest that he should have been cured, merely that his death (and life) should have been more developed.
yeah, it's not actually about the fact that he died at all, despite the fact that the devs hinted at curing him being a possiblity countless times.
i wasn't expecting him to live. i don't think that most fans were surprised by his death, honestly. it's just that to someone who romanced thane, the inconsistencies within his character arc and the lack of romantic content was really jarring. his death scene was almost exactly the same for people who romanced him vs those who didn't. miranda's death was optional, but when a romanced miranda died, shepard is able to hold her and tell her how much he loves her. femshep doesn't get to do any of that. she doesn't even get to tell him that she loves him once.
it's just like, okay? that's weird and disappointing and i'm not sure why that romance was given such poor treatment.
i was especially disgruntled to find out that what made it into the game was actually worse than what was in the leaked script (which, in retrospect, was really sweet and in character and awesome) -- in one of thane's scripted deaths, he dies because he was trying to save shepard's life and he says something along the lines of, "sorry, siha. i was stupid. i was trying to be a hero." and shepard had some really good cut lines too, like "i didn't tell you you could die on me!" , which makes thane laugh and he tells her to stop because breathing is difficult.
that was easily more emotionally impacting than what made it in the game! it's seriously just like, wtf?
what's really distressing is the fact that in his LOTSB letter to femshep, he confesses to her that he didn't want to die in a hospital bed. we are sent that letter again, immediately after he dies in a hospital bed. it was messed up!
and it really pisses me off that the main things thane even gets to talk about are the ****ing virmire survivor and goddamn kepral's syndrome. take it easy bioware, we learned about kepral's syndrome in ME2. we haven't forgotten.
but seriously, if you really want to know my biggest issue with it, watch this: (optional romanced miranda death scene) vs this: (mandatory romanced thane death scene)
that about ****ing sums it up!
but really, i can see how thane's death could be seen as "cool" from the perspective of him being your bro, but romanced, it was just pathetic and awful and jarring
I really didn't find Thane's death epic - and the aftermath was non-existent.
They took an amazing character and reduced him to 60 seconds of screen time with a horribly outfitted, ill-equipped "assassin". Pathetic.
And one conversation with him does not a dialogue make, especially when you appear to care more about the VS than him in the hospital (this does not change if you romanced him).
As for him having to die - really? So a disease defines you? Better let all those people with cancer know that their time is up as they have cancer - it's apparently pre-determined.
They wrote a great backstory for him, spent all that time on development for ME2, AND he won character of the year. His treatment in ME3 was horrific.
All I wanted was choice - I had choice with all the other squadmates death. But not his.
Yeah I think there should have been an option. Clearly, there is two different opinions on this. Some felt that Thane was define by his illness and then there are those who did not. I don't think forcing one opinion on an entire group is fair.
Thane needed to die. It was cinematic an glorious. That prayer was heartwrenching and when Koliat said "He was praying for you (sic)." I got all choked up. I'm an atheist, but the idea of a deeply religious man spending his dying breath on wishes for my... sanctuary, is still quite moving.
The best thing they could have done, that they didn't, was have Koliat join the Normandy crew as a polar opposite of Thane. He made piece with the demons of his youth since you last saw him and is no longer angry about his father's death. He would have made a great preacher-gunslinger type contrary to the assassin that his father was. Pity BW didn't think of that.
Except that would defeat the whole point of of Thane's loyalty mission of trying to prevent his son from entering a life of Bloodshed
The people who hated his death were usually the ones who romanced him and not so much because of the death, but because of how the romance was handled. I'm a fan of Thane and his romance with FemShep is my favorite, I always knew he'd die, but I expected at least an emotional farewell, not the crappy goodbye BioWare gave us.
He died a hero, no one can deny that, I just wished we had better romance scenes with him.
Thane arc is very well written. I think that people get into the whole hate bandwagon and say things without giving it too much thought sometimes, I dont know..
Even the original poster agrees above that it's not haterade. Thane went out well, but his storyline was pathetically microscopic compared to the fan response he had in ME2, and even compared to some other non-companion romances in the game. I think those few little lines lyssalu just mentioned would have made so much difference.
lyssalu wrote...
i was especially disgruntled to find out that what made it into the game was actually worse than what was in the leaked script (which, in retrospect, was really sweet and in character and awesome) -- in one of thane's scripted deaths, he dies because he was trying to save shepard's life and he says something along the lines of, "sorry, siha. i was stupid. i was trying to be a hero." and shepard had some really good cut lines too, like "i didn't tell you you could die on me!" , which makes thane laugh and he tells her to stop because breathing is difficult.
But no. There was none of it. That's all there is to get.
His character archetype is that of a Tragic Hero. He joined you in ME2 because he knew he was going to die, and he was trying to redeem himself. He was an assassin, and the fact that he died while saving a life instead of taking a life completed his story and allowed him redemption.
Pulling off a miracle cure at the last minute would have really cheapened his character and story.
I actually really liked how they handled Thane's death. I automatically assumed that Thane would die in the third game. I mean, come on... he says in the third game he's been working with the best doctors and scientists to find a cure to no avail. If anything, I think it'd be stupid to have him live. Having him go out "with his boots on" like stated earlier was probably the best way to end that particular story arc. Nearly brought tears to my eyes when his son said he was saying a prayer for Shepard :'c
Thanks to everyone who took the time to really answer my question. I was afraid that it'd be seen as a troll and no one would actually take this seriously. I'm glad to have been wrong. I've certainly learned a lot here, and in general I now agree with a lot of those who felt Thane got short shrift. Having not had my femshep romance Thane, I don't think I really had the proper frame of reference. So thanks to everyone. I'm going to check out now (I've got to finish my new "therapy" playthrough of ME1 - currenly on my way to meet Anderson to tell him to go knock Udina on his keister), but again, thanks.
Thane's final scene in the hospital made me shed man tears. The whole Thane arc in ME3 was fantastically done and bioware pulling a miricale cure out of their asses for keprels syndrome, which was constantly stated in ME2 as being uncurable, would have been cheap and tacky.
Thane's final scene in the hospital made me shed man tears. The whole Thane arc in ME3 was fantastically done and bioware pulling a miricale cure out of their asses for keprels syndrome, which was constantly stated in ME2 as being uncurable, would have been cheap and tacky.
The Hanar have been working on a cure for years. Thane outright says this. He just doesn't think it will bear fruit in time to benefit him.
HOWEVER, we find out later in Thane's medical file, that he is a viable candidate for a lung transplant. Something which could prolong his life, buy him more time, etc.
So no, he didn't ever need to die. He had an option available to him that ME3 ignores the existence of. To me, that's not good writing. The fact that Thane's character development was discarded is not good writing. The fact that his romance arc was almost totally dismissed is NOT good writing.
Retour en haut
