I love how the articles tearing the endings apart are uplifted and lauded, but when one person writes a good article talking about why he himself likes the ending it gets vilified and attacked. Herd the line indeed.
John Walker's "What's Right With Mass Effect 3's Ending"
Débuté par
The Razman
, mars 19 2012 11:24
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#77
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Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:39
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That article pretty much contributed nothing to the argument. Good job knocking down a straw-man. Nobody is arguing that the game wasn't great prior to the ending. No one is arguing that our choices didn't impact the events and characters prior to the ending. He made a counter argument to a position that does not exist.
People are upset that the quality of the narrative in the end is unacceptably bad. People are upset because for some reason Bioware seemed to think it was a good idea to have your decisions stop having an impact the moment you launch into the end game. People are upset because the ending falls into specific traps that Bioware had been promising for months that it would not fall into. People are upset because the themes in the ending contradict the themes of the rest of the series, and are actually morally reprehensible.
That article addresses none of this and instead argues a pointless straw-man argument that no one is presenting. Pretty pointless article.
People are upset that the quality of the narrative in the end is unacceptably bad. People are upset because for some reason Bioware seemed to think it was a good idea to have your decisions stop having an impact the moment you launch into the end game. People are upset because the ending falls into specific traps that Bioware had been promising for months that it would not fall into. People are upset because the themes in the ending contradict the themes of the rest of the series, and are actually morally reprehensible.
That article addresses none of this and instead argues a pointless straw-man argument that no one is presenting. Pretty pointless article.
Modifié par corpselover, 20 mars 2012 - 02:07 .
#78
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:40
CaptainZaysh
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Heh heh heh. Herd the line. You just won my internet. :-D
#79
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:40
kbct
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The Razman wrote...
True, none are that great. There are quite a few out there though ... and all of them have better figures than 2%.kbct wrote...
The Razman wrote...
There's other polls which have much higher figures than 2%. Still not a majority, but higher than 2%. There's also a poll which gets passed round here which asks "Were you satisfied with Mass Effect 3?" ... with 26% saying yes.kbct wrote...
Even if the poll is self-selecting, it has predictive power. 60K votes is no small sample. However, 2% is a tiny percentage. Besides, there is corroborating evidence all over the internet.
Any evidence anywhere that the majority liked the ending? No.
There's really no reason to be quoting such an informal poll as if it had factual weight.
It has statistical significance and predictive power. Multiple statistics experts on this forum agree. You choose not to believe it.
I agree there are other polls, but noooone are that great. Nooone show a majority. And nooone have a 60K+ sample size.
Besides, 80% should like the ending, not 2% and not 20%.
Which begs the question of why you insist on going round the forums posting the 2% one as if it was fact, despite it being obviously biased and erroneous. I'd prefer you didn't quote "statistics experts" while simultaneously exhibiting observer bias that even the most amateur statisitician would shake their head at.
Sure, the poll is biased. But it still has predictive power. The 2% might be 20% in the entire population, but it is not 50% and it is certainly not 80%.
BioWare has a problem if only 20% like the ending.
The user reviews reflect the poll. ME1 and ME2 got 4.5 out of 5 stars on Amazon. ME2 has 2 out of 5 stars.
#80
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:42
Allofthem
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HectorTheWellEndowed wrote...
I love how the articles tearing the endings apart are uplifted and lauded, but when one person writes a good article talking about why he himself likes the ending it gets vilified and attacked. Herd the line indeed.
I believe thats because I haven't found a single review praising the ending without including the words "whiners", "entitled", and my personal least favorite, "rainbows and unicorns"
#81
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:43
The Razman
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Sure. Point noted.kbct wrote...
The Razman wrote...
True, none are that great. There are quite a few out there though ... and all of them have better figures than 2%.kbct wrote...
The Razman wrote...
There's other polls which have much higher figures than 2%. Still not a majority, but higher than 2%. There's also a poll which gets passed round here which asks "Were you satisfied with Mass Effect 3?" ... with 26% saying yes.kbct wrote...
Even if the poll is self-selecting, it has predictive power. 60K votes is no small sample. However, 2% is a tiny percentage. Besides, there is corroborating evidence all over the internet.
Any evidence anywhere that the majority liked the ending? No.
There's really no reason to be quoting such an informal poll as if it had factual weight.
It has statistical significance and predictive power. Multiple statistics experts on this forum agree. You choose not to believe it.
I agree there are other polls, but noooone are that great. Nooone show a majority. And nooone have a 60K+ sample size.
Besides, 80% should like the ending, not 2% and not 20%.
Which begs the question of why you insist on going round the forums posting the 2% one as if it was fact, despite it being obviously biased and erroneous. I'd prefer you didn't quote "statistics experts" while simultaneously exhibiting observer bias that even the most amateur statisitician would shake their head at.
Sure, the poll is biased. But it still has predictive power. The 2% might be 20% in the entire population, but it is not 50% and it is certainly not 80%.
BioWare has a problem if only 20% like the ending.
The user reviews reflect the poll. ME1 and ME2 got 4.5 out of 5 stars on Amazon. ME2 has 2 out of 5 stars.
Now stop saying 2% as fact, seeing as you just admitted it's wrong ... and we got no problem.
#82
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:43
TK EL_
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The human race expanded Beyond Solar System.
And most of these colonies were shown to be self-sufficient.
False. Sufficient of the Alliance maybe, but not self sufficient.
There are not enough resources for only the human race.
Source?
Even in the optimal ending, the planet has taken a serious beating in every sense of the word. You don't need a source for that.
starving is the best of scenarios. It can happen a war for food.
As already said we know nothing about the support industries of the mass effect universe. The Citidel fed its massive population by literally making food out of nothing, and nobody seemed to care then.
A war is real possibility and one of the interesting facets of the ending. The people came together to defeat a threat, will that alliance hold now that the threat is gone? This is an aspect I like, not hate. I think they will. Given wrex's leadership, the geth and quarians peace, and etc... I think we've shown, "there is a better way." I guess it depends on the choices you've made though (Gasp).
I don't know how you've processed that a mass of different species in a system that is not their own that they didn't plan on being stuck in is a good thing. Also are you forgetting the Citadel is the trade center of the galaxy? Where did you get that the food there comes from nothing?
The quarians would be the first to die because they are fed in a different way.
And the turians, don't forget. Again assuming that, you know, all those scientists and engineers- the best that have ever lived, all working together, that just developed and built the crucible together- don't come up with a solution, and assuming their fleet- which they have lived on just fine for 300 years- can't sustain then any more. AND all the other people that are going to help rebuild the infrastructure just decide not to support the turians and the quarians. Then sure.
You are also assuming. You forget they have a lot of clean up to do plus there is a large shortage of resources they did not prepare to deal with.
Even traveling at FTL, they could not get to their planets.
With their current ships it is physically possible, although too difficult to be done. Now that relays are gone, I'm assuming that after the immediate concern of rebuilding and survival is at least handled, working on either longer-range FTL (which is already exists) or a new drive tech or longer-range ships would be the new focus of all those races that just worked together to defeat technological gods. And going back to their homeworlds is not really a big deal anyway- they are in no better condition then earth, and colonizing the surounding systems seems like a more feasable idea anyway.
That makes no sense. Why would they not want to go back to their homeworlds as soon as possible? Those are their pride and glory. They will be feverously trying to get back to rebuild and restabilize. If anything showed us, is that despite diplomacy, each of these races has their own interest and dominance in mind above all.
#83
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:44
The Razman
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I don't think John used any of those terms in his article?Allofthem wrote...
HectorTheWellEndowed wrote...
I love how the articles tearing the endings apart are uplifted and lauded, but when one person writes a good article talking about why he himself likes the ending it gets vilified and attacked. Herd the line indeed.
I believe thats because I haven't found a single review praising the ending without including the words "whiners", "entitled", and my personal least favorite, "rainbows and unicorns"
#84
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:44
Faust1979
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what I like about the ending is bad things happen during wars and war can leave both sides messed up and that is how the game turned out with a shattered universe
#85
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:45
HectorTheWellEndowed
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Allofthem wrote...
HectorTheWellEndowed wrote...
I love how the articles tearing the endings apart are uplifted and lauded, but when one person writes a good article talking about why he himself likes the ending it gets vilified and attacked. Herd the line indeed.
I believe thats because I haven't found a single review praising the ending without including the words "whiners", "entitled", and my personal least favorite, "rainbows and unicorns"
Yeah I wasn't talking about the puppets at IGN, Kotaku or any of the others. I'm talking about the smaller, or honest fan reviews. Personally I hate the endings. But I'm not going to fault someone for liking them.
#86
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:45
Random Geth
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What I like about the ending is how apparently no one is capable of defending it without at least one major fallacy in their argument. It's fun to watch, in a morbidly fascinating sort of way.
#88
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Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:45
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HectorTheWellEndowed wrote...
I love how the articles tearing the endings apart are uplifted and lauded, but when one person writes a good article talking about why he himself likes the ending it gets vilified and attacked. Herd the line indeed.
That's becasue the articles critical of the ending are not asserting arguments on to an entire community that have not actually been presented. They are focussed on the ending of the game, and not on the community itself. If he was not trying to pass this off as a counter to the community it would be fine.
#89
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:47
TK EL_
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Faust1979 wrote...
what I like about the ending is bad things happen during wars and war can leave both sides messed up and that is how the game turned out with a shattered universe
The only thing shattering the universe is the huge plot holes
#90
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:49
kbct
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The Razman wrote...
Sure. Point noted.kbct wrote...
Sure, the poll is biased. But it still has predictive power. The 2% might be 20% in the entire population, but it is not 50% and it is certainly not 80%.
BioWare has a problem if only 20% like the ending.
The user reviews reflect the poll. ME1 and ME2 got 4.5 out of 5 stars on Amazon. ME2 has 2 out of 5 stars.
Now stop saying 2% as fact, seeing as you just admitted it's wrong ... and we got no problem.
The information in the poll is a FACT. And it can be used to predict the outcome of the population.
It can also predict this mess right now.
Modifié par kbct, 20 mars 2012 - 01:49 .
#91
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:50
Faust1979
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TK EL wrote...
Faust1979 wrote...
what I like about the ending is bad things happen during wars and war can leave both sides messed up and that is how the game turned out with a shattered universe
The only thing shattering the universe is the huge plot holes
sorry but there are no plot holes
#92
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 01:51
kbct
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TK EL wrote...
The only thing shattering the universe is the huge plot holes
Heh.
#93
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 02:01
Cobra5
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TK EL, yours is the kind of post I have been looking for, but its hard to respond to in quotes due to the formatting (We'll have 5 towers of nested quotes, lol)
For self-sustainability, we really have no info whatsoever on the subject. To me, it was self-evident the colonies were self-sufficient. They talk about a lot of them as growing, self-inclusive communities. Really there is no info on how they work or why. Certainly, mining outposts, resource gather or fuel stations... are in for some tough times. But the truth is nothing is told to us one way or the other, and to me, the ending has an overall tone of optimism.
I never said the races getting stuck there is a good thing- I'm saying they aren't doomed to death. As for the citidel making its own food:
Nothing even directly implies this was citadel technology. This recycling system could be a galactic technology available to everyone.
Desperately wanting to return to their homeworld will result in one of two things:
1) They can't, so too bad for them, and they need to colonize where they can (Especially sucks for the quarians, just having retaken their world. Especially considering that without the network, they are the farthest from earth)
2) They develop new methods of travel to allow it.
We could talk about it all day, But the only point I can defend is this: They are not doomed to starvation and death. Certainly there are many challenges ahead of them, and certainly, there are more deaths coming. But there is nothing to imply they are all going to starve and kill eachother.
For self-sustainability, we really have no info whatsoever on the subject. To me, it was self-evident the colonies were self-sufficient. They talk about a lot of them as growing, self-inclusive communities. Really there is no info on how they work or why. Certainly, mining outposts, resource gather or fuel stations... are in for some tough times. But the truth is nothing is told to us one way or the other, and to me, the ending has an overall tone of optimism.
I never said the races getting stuck there is a good thing- I'm saying they aren't doomed to death. As for the citidel making its own food:
The "undersides" of the Wards between the inhabited superstructures and impenetrable outer hull are called the Foundations. These dangerous areas are filled with life support systems and power plants. Officially, only the keepers are allowed in the Foundations. In reality, the Foundations are the slums of the Citadel, home to criminals, minorities, transients, and the occasional "stateless" exiles. Some stay in the Foundations of their own will. Others end up there when the opportunities they sought in the Citadel do not come.
The station's recycling systems are located in the Foundations. These manufacture a variety of artificial organic pastes that can be eaten for sustenance. They are free and nutritious but nearly tasteless and of unpleasant texture. Poorer Citadel residents quickly become adept at dressing up this bland fare with sauces and spices while imported foodstuffs are a popular luxury of the wealthy.
Nothing even directly implies this was citadel technology. This recycling system could be a galactic technology available to everyone.
Desperately wanting to return to their homeworld will result in one of two things:
1) They can't, so too bad for them, and they need to colonize where they can (Especially sucks for the quarians, just having retaken their world. Especially considering that without the network, they are the farthest from earth)
2) They develop new methods of travel to allow it.
We could talk about it all day, But the only point I can defend is this: They are not doomed to starvation and death. Certainly there are many challenges ahead of them, and certainly, there are more deaths coming. But there is nothing to imply they are all going to starve and kill eachother.
Modifié par Cobra5, 20 mars 2012 - 02:04 .
#94
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 02:02
xsdob
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Tirigon wrote...
Yea, I just skimmed and was proven right in my suspicion that he is dead wrong.
And yet you claim he's wrong based on what? I skimmed the indoctrination theory and the take back mass effect mivement threads, does it mean it proves that they are dead wrong as well.
Logic applys both ways, without evidence to show one over the other, you are proven wrong.
Besides, at least have the decency to read it through before criticzing it.
#95
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 02:07
Mr.House
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I disagree with the article personally.
#96
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 02:10
TK EL_
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Faust1979 wrote...
TK EL wrote...
Faust1979 wrote...
what I like about the ending is bad things happen during wars and war can leave both sides messed up and that is how the game turned out with a shattered universe
The only thing shattering the universe is the huge plot holes
sorry but there are no plot holes
Ok, did you really just type that out? Straight face and all? No fooling bro?
#97
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 02:13
Mancusio
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That article was very respectful, tactful and well written. It deserves respect, and so let me give it respect in turn.
I've not actually played Mass Effect 3, but just by reading the threads made about it so far, I can disagree on some points - I don't see why our past choices shouldn't affect the ending, for one. Nor do I agree that Shepard's anxiety over the dead child was sufficient foreshadowing for the Catalyst. One could argue that the child set the ending up emotionally, but I'd counter argue that he set the <i>wrong</i> tone for it. It was a philosophical discussion whose theme belonged to a subplot that had already been resolved. If they'd gone for Drew Karpyshyn's original ending, I'd be more understanding of this decision, but they didn't.
I'm glad we're getting honest debate in here. Such debates help show the sincerity in our passions.
I've not actually played Mass Effect 3, but just by reading the threads made about it so far, I can disagree on some points - I don't see why our past choices shouldn't affect the ending, for one. Nor do I agree that Shepard's anxiety over the dead child was sufficient foreshadowing for the Catalyst. One could argue that the child set the ending up emotionally, but I'd counter argue that he set the <i>wrong</i> tone for it. It was a philosophical discussion whose theme belonged to a subplot that had already been resolved. If they'd gone for Drew Karpyshyn's original ending, I'd be more understanding of this decision, but they didn't.
I'm glad we're getting honest debate in here. Such debates help show the sincerity in our passions.
#98
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 02:13
bleetman
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To be fair, all the responeses to the contrary I've seen have spent their entire time making a mockery of those involved in wanting a... let's go with different ending, rather than debating the actual arguments. So they don't get linked a lot, except to point and laugh at.The Razman wrote...
It seems people scramble whenever a new damning review or YouTube vid is posted about Mass Effect 3. So I feel somewhat obligated to post a brilliantly worded piece to the contrary.
This, on the other hand, is something I was fully prepared to read. And it sure makes an interesting read. One that, again, I feel has missed the point right from the go, but interesting nontheless.
Modifié par bleetman, 20 mars 2012 - 02:17 .
#99
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 02:13
TK EL_
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Cobra5 wrote...
We could talk about it all day, But the only point I can defend is this: They are not doomed to starvation and death. Certainly there are many challenges ahead of them, and certainly, there are more deaths coming. But there is nothing to imply they are all going to starve and kill each other.
Agreed. That is certainly a sensationalistic and fatalistic approach, which I don't agree with but without a doubt the future is bleak.
#100
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 02:14
TheGHalfMan
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The Razman wrote...
It seems people scramble whenever a new damning review or YouTube vid is posted about Mass Effect 3. So I feel somewhat obligated to post a brilliantly worded piece to the contrary.
John Walker's "What's Right With Mass Effect 3's Ending", on Rock Paper Shotgun.
Not looking for a flame-war as a result of posting this, I should point out. It's just a lovely worded piece.
I for one can't speak for everyone, but, I do feel disappointed how BioWare chose to end the trilogy. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed almost every moment of ME1, ME2, and ME3 (Until the last 10 minuets of ME3). I was looking forward replaying the amazing science fiction series that sucked me in since 2007. However, I'm a little disappointed with Mr. Hudson's response, post ME3 release "some of our most passionate fans needed more closure, more answers, and more time to say goodbye to their stories—and these comments are equally valid. Player feedback such as this has always been an essential ingredient in the development of the series" THAT VIDEO GAME BLOG 2012-03-17 06:31:00.
Mr. Hudson, I do not consider myself a "passionate fan", I'm just a fan. I believe along side BioWare's passionate fan base, resides an entire sup-fan culture that wanted a better ending than some anticlimactic ending that left your fans' with less closure, more questions, and less time to say goodbye to all of our stories (which leaves both passionate and regular fans alike with a cliffhanger).
Modifié par TheGHalfMan, 20 mars 2012 - 02:17 .
