499 réponses à ce sujet

[Visii]

RShara wrote...

I don't understand the, "Defined by his illness." statements. How exactly is a character defined by one single attribute?
It's like saying, Garrus is defined by his dead team. Or Miranda is defined by her father. They all have FLAWS, but the whole point of Mass Effect for a lot of us is to conquer the flaws and succeed.

Thane is defined by his PAST, just as any other person, place, or thing. His illness is a part of him, but it doesn't DEFINE him.
In fact, his relationship with his son is MUCH more important to him than his future death.

We're all going to die. Are we all defined by death? I think not. I think what's important is not that he's ill and going to die, but that he is an interesting character in and of himself, that deserves more than a perfunct conversation and a single (questionably) interesting fight/cutscene.

Quoted for awesome.

I'd say more but really, what else is there to be said?

[sunnie7699]

LucyMaire wrote...

@Newnation
So...Thane was used to make the rivalry between Kai Leng and Shep more personal. What a great way to waste such a good character. On an assassin who hides behind gunships and uses a fricken sword.
Wonderful.

It may have made the rivalry more personal for people who weren't that emotionally attached to Thane, but everything after Thane's death and after his romance abruptly ended was just empty for me, even killing Kai Leng gave me no satisfaction, even when shep cried out 'that was for Thane', all I could think was 'if that was for Thane, why did my Shepard or no one else even mention him since his death?'. It wasn't very convincing, and Kai Leng was a cowardly **** anyway. I only pushed through the rest of the game to see how it played out. Obviously there were some amazing bits in the game, I thought Mordin and Legion's deaths were handled very well.

[miniy2j]

Visii wrote...

*Sigh.* You can't tell me not to argue for a choice to save Thane. He DID die in a hospital bed, not from his injuries from Kai-Leng, but from Keprals, the only thing he could talk about Shepard with, during that one conversation before Leng's attack.

I for one, want a cure, and will not stop wanting one because the way his death was handled was terrible. Miranda had a better death scene than Thane, and hers was optional. They had their chance to make me look back at Thane's death (and the time my Shepard spent with him before it) touching, and bittersweet. They were supposed to leave me sad, but satisfied.

Instead, we got:

1) There was no cure, despite CDN mention of Medigel for the lungs, the hanar cure, and Thane's transplant candidacy, mentioned in ME2 and Lair of the Shadow Broker.
2)There was a shameful lack of romantic dialogue.
3) Barely any difference between a friendShep's dialogue and a romanceShep's.
4) Only one, Keprals/VS oriented dialogue with Thane before he died.
5) No shared mission with Thane. The side mission that really should have been his went to... Kasumi??
6) The fight with Kai-Leng was stupid (why was Shep+others just standing there? Why close the distance, Thane, when Leng had a sword?) Also, a bit nonsensical and pointless; Thane dies trying to save the Salarian councilor, an act that can be replaced by several other characters, and that has no real connection or significance to Thane.
7) The death scene was impersonal, the same for both friendShep and a romanceShep's.
8) After he died, no one save Kai-Leng mentioned Thane's name again. No chance for Shepard to mourn or talk about him with others, romanced or not.
9) Every other ME2 LI can be saved or damned by Shepard's actions (or lack thereof) all but Thane. Parity thy name is Absent in ME3.

Fail.

Fine it was a combination of Kai Leng and Kepler's.

1. I don't see how this is an issue at all. Even with the idea that that medicine as a whole would be much more advanced, people were still dying from gunshot wounds and bleeding out in ME3. There are people on Earth who in theory could get a transplant or there is some experimental surgery that might work and it just doesn't. The fact that there might have been hope and then he finds out that there wasn't. No offense, you do know how transplants work right? He was on the Citadel, the only other drell there was his son. Maybe if he went to the Hanar home world...they're jellyfish. I doubt Thane was going to demand that the son, he's just recently got back, give him a lung. I wouldn't ask that of my kid, especially if there was no 100% guarantee that it would work. So despite the fact that there was treatment, the fact that bioware didn't choose to allow this treatment to work...or you know have Thane do it isn't a plot hole of any kind. It's artist's integrity. The ending of ME3...just made no sense.

2. This you can argue for, three more lines of dialogue. It's not like Jack, or you know Jacob, or Miranda, had oodles of more romantic dialogue. The only LI's that truly mattered were Garrus, Tali, Liara and Kaiden/Ash. But even then...the lack of I love you, is still eh.

3. Read above. What Romantic dialogue do you want? A chance to have sex with a dude who can barely breathe...cause you know...that wouldn't be painful at all.

4. Seriously, are we going to talk about the lack of options because bioware didn't make clear that maybe while Thane was compatible he was to late to recieve the treatment due to him trapezing around the Omega 4 relay and running around with Shepard. The more you delay treatment, the less of a chance you have. Considering that Drell aren't exactly Turians or Asari or you know Volus for that matter, where the hell were they going to get a lung.


5. Didn't Thane stop caring about the Jellyfish ages ago? I'm just saying, the whole him having a family the Jellyfish releasing him. Why would he suddenly be interested in politics? I'm just wondering.

6. Because Shep was in close range with him? The whole I don't want to shoot my friend in the back while he's trying to save me. Hell it's not like they were in this huge hallway they were in a relatively tight space. It probably had more to do with the fact that maybe Kai Leng was an assassin. Assassin vs Assassin. Which other friend? I'm sorry Kasumi? Isn't a fighter. Miranda had to look for her sister, who knows where she was at the time. You haven't gotten to Samara yet, not sure if Zaeed was open at that time and Zaeed would have opened fire. Tali was off with the Quarians, Legion was being used as a beacon. Jacob was off knocking up some poor woman. Grunt was off with the Urdnot clan becoming a leader. Who exactly was supposed to take Thane's place. Thane went to go help people, Kaiden or Ashley were off trying to save most of the council. He came to Shepard's aid not the Salarian councilman's.

7. Impersonal? That is your opinion. I found the scene to be touching, and I wish that the Kai Leng kill scene had been drawn out just a bit, didn't matter if you romanced him or not. I wanted to beat his face in with a lead pipe.

8. His name get's added to the wall. You're right there should have been some acknowledgment.

9. I talked about this choice already, there was no actual choice in the matter. Thane was always going to die. Mordin was always going to die, he was old for a Salarian anyway. Legion was always going to die. From day one Thane basically  said I have this chronic condition, it's killing me. IT'S KILLING ME. The one character who was dying from day one, who you know was going to die eventually, due to his disease. Something which he has described as not being pretty, and actually sounds quite awful, is the one person you want to have a choice to save. Makes absolutely no sense. I said this, a choice to do what? Assuming that Thane managed to live and the treatment not be viable, have him slowly suffocate to death, loosing his mind inch by inch. Or to be brutally slaughtered when the Reapers take over the citadel. You chose to romance a man dying of a chronic illness, when that man dies. You sit and whine about how everyone else got to either be saved or not due to your actions, or inaction. Everyone else wasn't dying.

[Newnation]

Thane said the hanar were working on a cure. He never said they had one.

LucyMaire wrote...

@Newnation
So...Thane was used to make the rivalry between Kai Leng and Shep more personal. What a great way to waste such a good character. On an assassin who hides behind gunships and uses a fricken sword.
Wonderful.

Considering Thane usually takes people's lives and he risked his life saving someone important from a spineless a**hole who just tried to help doom most life in the universe, I don't really see how that was wasting a good character. Thane was actually one of the few people in the game that closure. He rekindled his relationship with his son and redeemed himself based on his religion. His last dying words were even trying to say a prayer for Shepard. None of that was a waste of his character.

[Shepenwepet]

miniy2j wrote...



6. ..... Who exactly was supposed to take Thane's place?

She meant Kirrahe - Thane can sit out the whole thing if you don't talk to him beforehand. He still dies, but offscreen. OFFSCREEN. What a send off for a beloved character.

7. Impersonal? That is your opinion. I found the scene to be touching, and I wish that the Kai Leng kill scene had been drawn out just a bit, didn't matter if you romanced him or not. I wanted to beat his face in with a lead pipe.

I'm a Thanemancer who is completely fine with his forced death. I expected it. For me the death scene was not moving, not... anything. I just sat there with a blank expression... pretty much like my Shepard. But really, the whole character 180 a romanced Thane has when you first meet him at Huerta wrecked the whole experience. It isn't Thane. It was not the character from the end of ME2. It just wasn't.

9. I talked about this choice already, there was no actual choice in the matter. Thane was always going to die. Mordin was always going to die, he was old for a Salarian anyway. Legion was always going to die. From day one Thane basically said I have this chronic condition, it's killing me. IT'S KILLING ME. The one character who was dying from day one, who you know was going to die eventually, due to his disease. Something which he has described as not being pretty, and actually sounds quite awful, is the one person you want to have a choice to save. Makes absolutely no sense. I said this, a choice to do what? Assuming that Thane managed to live and the treatment not be viable, have him slowly suffocate to death, loosing his mind inch by inch. Or to be brutally slaughtered when the Reapers take over the citadel. You chose to romance a man dying of a chronic illness, when that man dies. You sit and whine about how everyone else got to either be saved or not due to your actions, or inaction. Everyone else wasn't dying.

There was a writer change when it came to Thane - Chris L'Etoile, his original writer, left BioWare. It's possible those dropped hints about transplants and medigel for the lungs were foreshadowing to an eventual cure, but since he left, we'll never know. BioWare chose to go this way with his character, which, okay, fine, it's their choice, but, in my opinion, it was a complete injustice to a character they'd worked so hard to create.

Again, it's not because he died, it's because it's not Thane. Hell, it wasn't even my Shepard in those scenes.

While I myself don't really see BioWare thinking that a Thane cure is feasible or even any sort of priority, considering most people think he had a good death, (for the non-romanced, they're right, really), I support this petition. If it ever happened, it wouldn't impact anyone's game that didn't want it.

Oh, and irrelevant, but... Mordin doesn't have to die. You have to jump through several hoops that make it almost not worth it, but he can live.

[OhManTFE]

@Visii - aka Thane's Bane.
 
Who knows how many he killed? This is purely utilitarian saying he needs to save X to consider himself 'atoned'. He has been killing all his life, only now, after meeting Shepard has he had a focus on saving them. As he said once, "taking away evil is not the same as creating good."

An optional cure is just fan pandering for happy endings. Any dramatic, gripping epic needs moving character deaths. Deaths are meaningful, it means there are consequences, and it's more realistic. Not everyone comes out of things alive, and we've known from the get go that Thane's days were numbered. Asking for some cure is just space magic and wishful thinking.

His sacrifice wasn't personal in that he didn't have a vested interest in the salarian councilor per se, but more because he was doing it for Shepard. If Thane had won that fight he would have saved Shepard from the loss at Thessia, and completely eliminated the need to waste resources assaulting Cereberus' base. In addition, the person he defended doesn't even have to have a meaningful connection to Thane, he was just nobly defending the weak from the wicked. Why insist that he sacrifice himself for purely egotistic/nihilistic goals? There is no reason for this, narratively or logically.

And he died primarily because of that sword wound, you can't deny that didn't, at the very least, shorten his life. At best you can say he died from impalement and complications with Kepral Syndrome.

My only qualm with Thane's treatment in ME3 is that his romance wasn't extensive enough, and, as you said, there was no special dialogue for the prayer sequence.

TLDR: Thane is dead.

Modifié par OhManTFE, 25 mars 2012 - 04:07 .

[Visii]

An optional cure doesn't make everything sunshine and kittens.

Hudson said, "It's the journey, not the destination." But the journey through the game, after Thane died and ceased to exist SUCKED. And as it turned out, the destination wasn't a place people wanted to go to, either.

It wouldn't be a space cure. In-game information: CDN mention of Medigel for the lungs, the hanar cure (Thane's first discussion on the Normandy), and Thane's transplant candidacy, mentioned in ME2 and Lair of the Shadow Broker.

So Thane can just die for the vague, shallow ideal that the weak should be saved from the wicked? Isn't Bioware supposed to be good at creating complex, multi-faceted, realistic characters? Aside from the fact that it is only extremely shallow and one-dimensional to describe any character by such a flimsy premise that has no grounding in his character, you show an utter lack of comprehension when it comes to Thane's character.

It's ridiculous that you think in a universe where a horde mecha-cthulu are destroying entire worlds and civilizations, that one single character's death can lend ME3 gravitas when all the aforementioned, couldn't.

The doctor in the hospital said the fixed up Thane's wound just fine, but because Keprals limited the amount of oxygen in his blood. Ergo, Keprals (and bad writing) killed Thane, not Kai-Leng.

Modifié par Visii, 25 mars 2012 - 04:22 .

[Nube9]

Bloodhound66 wrote...

I apologise for my trolling. I definitely don't want to start a getting a negative reputation around the forums.

You're all absolutely right; If enough people agree that Thane's LI dialogue was lacking, I have no real reason to object. I was adament in defending the scene because I thought it was amazingly well done, and the prayer part caught me off guard.

I do remember walking through the Normandy afterwards, wondering why no one wpuld talk about it. If he were a LI, I can see how this would fall short.

@visii

Sorry for attacking this thread with such animosity. It kinda sounded absurd at first, (Ya know, like, "Lets petition this now!") but I can see the points being made. Sincere apologies to you, and everyone else I offended.

Thanks Blloodhound You're quite a gentleman.

[utaker1988]

Well, there are a lot of space cures in the ME universe. Denying Thane the same kind of space cure shouldn't be too much of a stretch. Shepard gets rebuilt by The Lazarus Project. I remember reading in Mass Effect: Revelation that they were cloning organs for that girl Jella who was blown up in that building and I recall Saren thinking while he was standing over her hospital bed that it could take weeks to get the organs properly cloned. Sorry for the lack of details but it's in there and it's been awhile since I've read it. So, if Shepard can get rebuilt and they can clone organs, someone, somewhere can come up with a treatment or cure for Thane.

Other than that, I don't see how what we want in any way takes away from everyone who does not want it. It's our game just as much as it yours and if we want to ask for something, we have the same right as those who ask for blue babies, a better Tali reveal, a coherent ending, or whatever else one wants to ask for. Doesn't mean any of us are going to get it but in all cases of those who are asking for something...at least we asked.

[coldwetn0se]

utaker1988 wrote...

Well, there are a lot of space cures in the ME universe. Denying Thane the same kind of space cure shouldn't be too much of a stretch. Shepard gets rebuilt by The Lazarus Project. I remember reading in Mass Effect: Revelation that they were cloning organs for that girl Jella who was blown up in that building and I recall Saren thinking while he was standing over her hospital bed that it could take weeks to get the organs properly cloned. Sorry for the lack of details but it's in there and it's been awhile since I've read it. So, if Shepard can get rebuilt and they can clone organs, someone, somewhere can come up with a treatment or cure for Thane.

Other than that, I don't see how what we want in any way takes away from everyone who does not want it. It's our game just as much as it yours and if we want to ask for something, we have the same right as those who ask for blue babies, a better Tali reveal, a coherent ending, or whatever else one wants to ask for. Doesn't mean any of us are going to get it but in all cases of those who are asking for something...at least we asked.

*applause!*
Everyone here has contributed so well to the reasons for this thread. 

I stress again, as I have before and others as well, I am under NO delusion that we will actually get an option (choice) to extend Thane's life, and BW is under NO obligation to do so.  Still doesn't stop me from wishing it, and expressing my opinions on how Thane's character was handled in ME3.

[OhManTFE]

Meh, OK. I'll submit.

[coldwetn0se]

OhManTFE wrote...

Meh, OK. I'll submit.

Have a pleasant weekend.
Cookie?

[Aello89]

For the love of bioluminescence hanar snout.
 
Ok. That's it. I can't draw a diagram but I'll try to »word« one. Nice and simple and easy to comprehend.
 
So leaving the rage about »dropping the ball«, »lack of romance dialogue«, »fling?! wtf«, »Shep you emotionless pixel woman« etc.. at the side...
 
Let's talk options people.
 
So, we have two options.
 
OPTION A and OPTION B
 
OPTION A stands for SAVE
 
OPTION B stands for DOOM
(hence because I hate you, don't care about you, didn't romance you, you are Kerpral Krios and so on ).
 
If I choose OPTION A in my game and you choose OPTION B in yours, then ....
 
How exactly does my choice of choosing an OPTION A diminish your decision of picking OPTION B ?
 
Also how can allowing OPTION A (for other players then you) make you all unhappy if you can still pick OPTION B? 

I mean I am forcing you to take the OPTION A ? NO.
Are you forcing us to take OPTION B. HAHA, well good for you, since OPTION B is all we get.

Because OPTION B seems the only logical conclusion, the only OPTION that is no longer an option but an OBLIGATION. OBLIGATION that those who had no real emotional investement in the character, didn't care, didn't bother, didn't romance him, didn't like him anyways, DEMANDED.
We are obligated to experience what would be your (and BW) perfect understanding and conclusion for Thane.  

Is it so difficult to try and understand that he can still be dead in your game, you can still see him "go out in the blaze of glory", while others can choose to let him, say, recover after a transplant or something.
How does my decision of picking a differnt option ( if we were given one) destroy your gaming experience?

This rant is done. For now.

[Nube9]

Well it's done. Here's a link to sign the formal petition. Feel free to see it, sign it, and/or share it, (can also be done via twitter and FB) This could be a good experiment to see just how much support there is out there.
http://www.thepetiti...-game-petition/
Ill also post this at the beginning of the thread just in case.

[Cosmochyck]

Nube9 wrote...

Well it's done. Here's a link to sign the formal petition. Feel free to see it, sign it, and/or share it, (can also be done via twitter and FB) This could be a good experiment to see just how much support there is out there.

http://www.thepetiti...-game-petition/

Ill also post this at the beginning of the thread just in case.

Just lighting it up for you!!!  Go sign people!!

[mnomaha]

I have signed it!!!

[coldwetn0se]

I'm not an overly peranoid type, but why does the petition need our physical address? Kinda curious.

[Aello89]

Nube9 wrote...

Well it's done. Here's a link to sign the formal petition.

http://www.thepetiti...-game-petition/

Signed!

[Cosmochyck]

mayrabgood wrote...

I linked the petition to the Kaidan thread. Hopefully many of my fellow Kaidanites can help us out since I know many of them like Thane 

That would be fantastic!  Plus think of all the good Kaidan/Thane dialogue there could be if you "cheated" (I think that is such a poor term for it but anyway....) on Kaidan with Thane!  Ooooh the possibilities!!

[mnomaha]

LMAO innocent...hahahahaaaaaaa

[Kaija]

signed!

[Kaija]

Modifié par Kaija, 25 mars 2012 - 10:22 .