654 réponses à ce sujet

[Iwillbeback]

Too much Liara? Nah the game is too s**t for me to care about problems like this.

[Titus Thongger]

Was fine with the amount of Liara.

but there wasnt enough Tali.

[xxskyshadowxx]

I like Liara, so I liked her inclusion but I can see how people who don't might feel that she was present way too much. I think it would have made a lot more sense had they used more of her Shadow Broker status (other than standing her in front of her mega terminal saying "Thanks for stopping by" over and over). More interaction with the other characters from ME2 would have been nice tho, but since ME3 pretty much invalidates almost the entirety of ME2 right from the start of the game, I guess I get why they got cameos for the most part.

[TheGreatDayne]

B-but... I romanced her in that one scene where she wanted to spend some relaxation time (since I didn't want my Shepard to die without achieving the paramore(sp?) trophy) and she kind of just ignored me after the kiss... She's too busy to cuddle with my Shepard!

Although, I do believe that she should have been killable... It would help me make the most tragic save ever!

[Neria Rose]

simfamSP wrote...

The same way there is a lot of Jaheira or the same way there is a lot of Bastilla and Carth... there are always favourites, it's nothing new, nor is it bad. It just sucks for the person who doesn't like that favourite. But tbh, theres not a lot of reasons to *not* like Liara. She's quite the neutral character, and doesn't have too many extremes. She's neither obsessive, nor religious or has any issues against anyone.

O.o. Therum is the very last mission I complete prior to Ilos in every ME1 game, so Liara knew Shepard for.. a max of a few months, maybe? And this Shepard who made it abundantly clear that she did not like Liara and only barely knew her suddenly became the center of Liara's life once she died? How is the "I couldn't let you go" line regardless of whether or not you romanced her or were nice to her not obsessive? Not to mention risking her life for Shepard's corpse instead of moving on like a normal person and then prying off Shepard's armor and putting it on display in her apartment.

And there are plenty of (subjective) reasons to dislike her. From her species to her appearance to her annoying, raspy, monotone voice to her "I'm here to fill the naive young virgin LI trope!" thing in ME1 to her constant fainting in ME1 to her diving right into discussing Asari mating habits when all I wanted to know was more about the Asari in general to the forced hug in ME2 to the forced friendship in ME2/3 to Bioware's constant attempts to try to make her more than the fawning fangirl she was in ME1 (ME2 - Bioware: She's an information broker, not that socially-inept wimpy shy thing anymore! Do you like her yet??  LotSB - Bioware: She's the Shadow Broker AND has a Krogan grandfather, see how she's so much stronger than we initially had her, do you like her yet?? ME3 - Bioware: Notice how we re-introduce her as not needing to be rescued and have her barge into your room at all hours of the day and night, DO YOU LIKE HER YET?!?!?! No, Bioware, I really don't. Making all of those changes is not going to get me to put her up on a pedestal like she's something special. You would have been better off letting her do her Prothean thing on some distant world while Cerberus brought Shepard back without using any former squaddies).

On the topic of other squaddies needing more time as opposed to Liara needing less..  I would certainly not be opposed to having more time with the others, but overall I am satisfied with the interaction I have with my favorite character, so the problem is indeed too much Liara. I don't want her in my Shepard's room, I don't want her in my face.. truthfully, I want her out of my game period (preferably rotting somewhere so there's no risk of her being in any future ME games of mine, but I'll accept her going off to help with the Crucible if it means not having to interact with her). In ME1 and ME2, at least, while you can't kill her you can still experience the vast majority of the games without her. That's a trend Bioware really should have stuck with for ME3.

[Hellfire257]

Liara had the right amount of content, so I'm fine with it. The others though? Not so much.

[Hyperion II]

Too much if you didn't romance her, yes.

[Arlionis]

Neria Rose wrote...
O.o. Therum is the very last mission I complete prior to Ilos in every ME1 game, so Liara knew Shepard for.. a max of a few months, maybe? And this Shepard who made it abundantly clear that she did not like Liara and only barely knew her suddenly became the center of Liara's life once she died? How is the "I couldn't let you go" line regardless of whether or not you romanced her or were nice to her not obsessive? Not to mention risking her life for Shepard's corpse instead of moving on like a normal person and then prying off Shepard's armor and putting it on display in her apartment.

 

Explain to me how is that Liara's fault and not a general problem with the game? I never liked Tali, I mistreated her constantly, I exposed her racist and inept father, got her exiled in ME2 and in ME1 never gave her the Geth data because I honestly never trusted her, yet she kept throwing herself very cheaply at my Shepard constantly in ME2 and in ME3 she pretended to meet with my Shepard in his cabin. Either she suffers from serious psychological issues or it's a writing problem. 

Is this what the anti-Liara crowd represents? misguided and biased criticizing based on either ignorance or bad intentions? 

Modifié par Arlionis, 15 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[dublin omega 223]

I'm not anti Liara myself but I do think that she was in the game a bit too much espically in missions and cut scenes when compared to other characters like Garrus and Javik for example. I mean shes in three maybe four missions and you cant change that while others get 1 mission like that at most.

I do admit that is she is on my least favorite characters list below, Ashley, the Salarian Dalatrass, the Citadel Council in general (with the exception of Udina and Anderson) and Legion.

Modifié par dublin omega 223, 15 mai 2012 - 04:27 .

[Neria Rose]

Arlionis wrote...

Explain to me how is that Liara's fault and not a general problem with the game? I never liked Tali, I mistreated her constantly, I exposed her racist and inept father, got her exiled in ME2 and in ME1 never gave her the Geth data because I honestly never trusted her, yet she kept throwing herself very cheaply at my Shepard constantly in ME2 and in ME3 she pretended to meet with my Shepard in his cabin. Either she suffers from serious psychological issues or it's a writing problem. 

Is this what the anti-Liara crowd represents? misguided and biased criticizing based on either ignorance or bad intentions? 

How are you going to differentiate the game from the character? You can't. They're one and the same. They're written how they're written and that's it. The only character who (theoretically) isn't written for you is Shepard. So Liara is obsessed with Shepard one way or the other, which puts me off.

And I never had any trouble with Tali. I was indifferent to her at best in ME1 (thought she was fairly boring, honestly, and that accent is unappealing with her voice, but she was not as dull as Liara) and really enjoyed her development in ME2/3. But given that I only play FemShep, I never experienced her throwing herself at my Shep. And I always gave her the data in ME1, so in my games she never had that problem. In your games, I guess she's a psycho *shrugs* Doesn't affect me in the least. Just like in your games Liara presumably is a devoted lover while in mine she's an off-putting creep.

[Elite Midget]

Yes. Though she's the only one that must live so I can understand why they tried to force Liara on everyone. She's the only one that knows how to take clothes off too apparently.

[Arlionis]

Neria Rose wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Explain to me how is that Liara's fault and not a general problem with the game? I never liked Tali, I mistreated her constantly, I exposed her racist and inept father, got her exiled in ME2 and in ME1 never gave her the Geth data because I honestly never trusted her, yet she kept throwing herself very cheaply at my Shepard constantly in ME2 and in ME3 she pretended to meet with my Shepard in his cabin. Either she suffers from serious psychological issues or it's a writing problem. 

Is this what the anti-Liara crowd represents? misguided and biased criticizing based on either ignorance or bad intentions? 

And I always gave her the data in ME1, so in my games she never had that problem. In your games, I guess she's a psycho *shrugs* Doesn't affect me in the least. Just like in your games Liara presumably is a devoted lover while in mine she's an off-putting creep.

Same as Liara doesn't affect me in my own game because my Shepard is very friendly to her, that was precisely my point. You're trying to present a personal issue you have with her as a general issue. If this kind of behavior "is" Liara's fault then also Tali and other characters suffer from the same faul too. 
Blaming only Liara for it is immature and biased. 

[Bob the Elcor]

With sadness, sadly this is not the case, there is not to much Liara, with growing depression, more a lack of others.

[LoganofET]

As someone who came into the francise in ME2, I didn't have enough of a bond with her to sustain her large role. I know, I know, I did it wrong, but Bioware had to know there are alot of people like me.

[Neria Rose]

Arlionis wrote...

Same as Liara doesn't affect me in my own game because my Shepard is very friendly to her, that was precisely my point. You're trying to present a personal issue you have with her as a general issue. If this kind of behavior "is" Liara's fault then also Tali and other characters suffer from the same faul too. 
Blaming only Liara for it is immature and biased. 

It is a general issue as far as I'm concerned, because she behaves that way in every single one of my games when I do not have a Shepard who likes her.

And when and/or where did I say other characters don't do the same thing? I just don't find any other character offensive enough to devote the energy needed to complain about them. Plus, if I really hated any other squadmate, I could kill them off prior to ME3. It's Liara I can't stand and Liara I can't get rid of, so it's Liara I'm going to focus on.

Modifié par Neria Rose, 15 mai 2012 - 05:11 .

[Fingertrip]

She tries to hard.

[Xeranx]

Arlionis wrote...

Neria Rose wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Explain to me how is that Liara's fault and not a general problem with the game? I never liked Tali, I mistreated her constantly, I exposed her racist and inept father, got her exiled in ME2 and in ME1 never gave her the Geth data because I honestly never trusted her, yet she kept throwing herself very cheaply at my Shepard constantly in ME2 and in ME3 she pretended to meet with my Shepard in his cabin. Either she suffers from serious psychological issues or it's a writing problem. 

Is this what the anti-Liara crowd represents? misguided and biased criticizing based on either ignorance or bad intentions? 

And I always gave her the data in ME1, so in my games she never had that problem. In your games, I guess she's a psycho *shrugs* Doesn't affect me in the least. Just like in your games Liara presumably is a devoted lover while in mine she's an off-putting creep.

Same as Liara doesn't affect me in my own game because my Shepard is very friendly to her, that was precisely my point. You're trying to present a personal issue you have with her as a general issue. If this kind of behavior "is" Liara's fault then also Tali and other characters suffer from the same faul too. 
Blaming only Liara for it is immature and biased. 

So then what do you say to someone who initially went for Liara, thought Ashley was a b!tch, and later came to appreciate the latter while not having too negative opinion (or much of one) on the former?  That's where I am or rather, where I was until Liara became the focal point of everything Mass Effect.

The problem here is, when I see characters get sidelined for Liara I start to resent her character.  Look at how she goes from archeologist to (prolific!) information broker in the span of two years.  Mind you, she above all others was written to be more caring and appreciative of Shepard than anyone else.  Does your fandom blind you to that?  Such a contrivance on making Liara more integral to the story comes out of left field, but you don't see anything weird in that?  What about Liara clearly makes you think that her "development" is in any way natural?

This appears to be heated on my part, but it isn't.  I'm trying to get you to see that there is a very obvious statement about Liara's role in the series and there are characters that fit so much better in her role than anyone else.  She most certainly didn't need to become the Shadow Broker, but it was twisted to allow that to happen.  Many people who have criticized her becoming the Shadow Broker asked why she couldn't follow her archeological path towards something that's more in line with her character.  The fact is, the writers didn't do this and even in the game she was introduced in, she is overshadowed by another character that could fit her role better than she could on many fronts without going the "untouched" route.

[Kreid]

Too much? You mean not enough, I needed far more Liara than I got.
There issue is that there is too few of other characters, not the same thing.

Modifié par Creid-X, 15 mai 2012 - 05:12 .

[dublin omega 223]

Neria Rose wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Same as Liara doesn't affect me in my own game because my Shepard is very friendly to her, that was precisely my point. You're trying to present a personal issue you have with her as a general issue. If this kind of behavior "is" Liara's fault then also Tali and other characters suffer from the same faul too. 
Blaming only Liara for it is immature and biased. 

It is a general issue as far as I'm concerned, because she behaves that way in every single one of my games when I do not have a Shepard who likes her.

And when and/or where did I say other characters don't do the same thing? I just don't find any other character offensive enough to devote energy into complaining about them. Plus, if I really hated any other squadmate, I could kill them off prior to ME3. It's Liara I can't stand and Liara I can't get rid of, so it's Liara I'm going to focus on.

Agreed if Liara was able to killed off in the series like the other characters then I doubt anyone would be on this thread, nor would it be here in the first place.

[Arlionis]

Neria Rose wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Same as Liara doesn't affect me in my own game because my Shepard is very friendly to her, that was precisely my point. You're trying to present a personal issue you have with her as a general issue. If this kind of behavior "is" Liara's fault then also Tali and other characters suffer from the same faul too. 
Blaming only Liara for it is immature and biased. 

And when and/or where did I say other characters don't do the same thing? I just don't find any other character offensive enough to devote the energy needed to complain about them. Plus, if I really hated any other squadmate, I could kill them off prior to ME3. It's Liara I can't stand and Liara I can't get rid of, so it's Liara I'm going to focus on.

Fine, then you're admiting that althoug most characters behave in that way only with Liara it's a problem just because you happen to not like her. As I've previously said, a biased and immature criticism. 

[Arlionis]

Xeranx wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Neria Rose wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Explain to me how is that Liara's fault and not a general problem with the game? I never liked Tali, I mistreated her constantly, I exposed her racist and inept father, got her exiled in ME2 and in ME1 never gave her the Geth data because I honestly never trusted her, yet she kept throwing herself very cheaply at my Shepard constantly in ME2 and in ME3 she pretended to meet with my Shepard in his cabin. Either she suffers from serious psychological issues or it's a writing problem. 

Is this what the anti-Liara crowd represents? misguided and biased criticizing based on either ignorance or bad intentions? 

And I always gave her the data in ME1, so in my games she never had that problem. In your games, I guess she's a psycho *shrugs* Doesn't affect me in the least. Just like in your games Liara presumably is a devoted lover while in mine she's an off-putting creep.

Same as Liara doesn't affect me in my own game because my Shepard is very friendly to her, that was precisely my point. You're trying to present a personal issue you have with her as a general issue. If this kind of behavior "is" Liara's fault then also Tali and other characters suffer from the same faul too. 
Blaming only Liara for it is immature and biased. 

So then what do you say to someone who initially went for Liara, thought Ashley was a b!tch, and later came to appreciate the latter while not having too negative opinion (or much of one) on the former?  That's where I am or rather, where I was until Liara became the focal point of everything Mass Effect.

The problem here is, when I see characters get sidelined for Liara I start to resent her character.  Look at how she goes from archeologist to (prolific!) information broker in the span of two years.  Mind you, she above all others was written to be more caring and appreciative of Shepard than anyone else.  Does your fandom blind you to that?  Such a contrivance on making Liara more integral to the story comes out of left field, but you don't see anything weird in that?  What about Liara clearly makes you think that her "development" is in any way natural?

This appears to be heated on my part, but it isn't.  I'm trying to get you to see that there is a very obvious statement about Liara's role in the series and there are characters that fit so much better in her role than anyone else.  She most certainly didn't need to become the Shadow Broker, but it was twisted to allow that to happen.  Many people who have criticized her becoming the Shadow Broker asked why she couldn't follow her archeological path towards something that's more in line with her character.  The fact is, the writers didn't do this and even in the game she was introduced in, she is overshadowed by another character that could fit her role better than she could on many fronts without going the "untouched" route.

Your whole comment can be summarized in just one word: opinions. You didn't like her development, I did. Whose opinion is more valid? yours or mine? that's right, depends on who's talking.

Don't try to force your own opinions and points of view on others.

[Neria Rose]

Arlionis wrote...

Fine, then you're admiting that althoug most characters behave in that way only with Liara it's a problem just because you happen to not like her. As I've previously said, a biased and immature criticism.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying that most characters behave that way. I am aware of Garrus and Tali treating you like a friend regardless of how you treated them prior to ME2 (I don't really count 3 because if you didn't like them, you had the option to get rid of them. You have only yourself to blame for keeping them around in ME3). And I guess I could include Joker and Anderson. Those are the characters I am most aware of, beyond Liara, and I definitely do not classify 5 characters as anywhere near "most".

I'm definitely biased, not even going to deny that one. But "immature"? Nah, just being completely honest. I get that you want to call it "immature" because you're a Liara fan, though.

[Arlionis]

Neria Rose wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Fine, then you're admiting that althoug most characters behave in that way only with Liara it's a problem just because you happen to not like her. As I've previously said, a biased and immature criticism.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying that most characters behave that way. 

 

No, you were saying that others characters suffer from that same fault but you only take offense with Liara because you happen not to like her. 

  
I am aware of Garrus and Tali treating you like a friend regardless of how you treated them prior to ME2 (I don't really count 3 because if you didn't like them, you had the option to get rid of them. You have only yourself to blame for keeping them around in ME3). And I guess I could include Joker and Anderson. Those are the characters I am most aware of, beyond Liara, and I definitely do not classify 5 characters as anywhere near "most". 

  

It still affects me because the developers spent resources on them that could have been used to develop and expand other characters like Jack, Samara, Miranda, etc. Characters that were only included in just one game while Tali and Garrus were included in three. That's unfair. 

   
I'm definitely biased, not even going to deny that one. But "immature"? Nah, just being completely honest. I get that you want to call it "immature" because you're a Liara fan, though.

   

Being biased isn't what makes your attitude immature, bashing and attacking a character online just because you don't like said character is what makes you immature. 

[covertdrizzt]

not enough of her. not enough conversations with anyone. "hey shepard" doesn't count

[dgcatanisiri]

I would dislike Liara less if the intimate moments that she had with Shepard, the post-dream conversations, the conversation about the Virmire Sacrifice, the time capsule sequence, had counterparts with the other characters. Yes, I realize that Liara is the only romanceable character on the Normandy for the first few dreams, but it's still the principle of the matter - where is the character intimacy between the other characters? Between the Virmire Survivor, there are... what, two or three cutscene conversations on the Normandy, not about anything between them and Shepard but, with Ashley, she's drunk and passed out (admittedly, I love the scene, but still), and with Kaidan, there's yet another rehash of Cerberus trust issues after helping the scientists. Tali comes into the game in the later half of its second act with equally limited options of one-on-one conversations about Shepard's mental state. And if you romanced Miranda, Jack, Jacob, or Thane, you are **** out of luck. Two of them never set foot on the Normandy, one leaves you for the nearest piece of ass and calls her the love of his life, and the other one dies about midgame. Where are the moments of emotional intimacy between Shepard and their LI? There's the rekindle date and the sex scene at the endgame, and otherwise, they're not there, while Liara has a handful of scripted intimate moments that, while avoidable, do not have counterparts for the other characters. That's what bothers me.