654 réponses à ce sujet

[Mandalore007]

There cannot be too much Liara...I thought there was too little?? Always on that damn computer!!

[Zix13]

Because reducing her role as shadow broker made the story so much more logical.... oh wait...

[dublin omega 223]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

I would dislike Liara less if the intimate moments that she had with Shepard, the post-dream conversations, the conversation about the Virmire Sacrifice, the time capsule sequence, had counterparts with the other characters. Yes, I realize that Liara is the only romanceable character on the Normandy for the first few dreams, but it's still the principle of the matter - where is the character intimacy between the other characters? Between the Virmire Survivor, there are... what, two or three cutscene conversations on the Normandy, not about anything between them and Shepard but, with Ashley, she's drunk and passed out (admittedly, I love the scene, but still), and with Kaidan, there's yet another rehash of Cerberus trust issues after helping the scientists. Tali comes into the game in the later half of its second act with equally limited options of one-on-one conversations about Shepard's mental state. And if you romanced Miranda, Jack, Jacob, or Thane, you are **** out of luck. Two of them never set foot on the Normandy, one leaves you for the nearest piece of ass and calls her the love of his life, and the other one dies about midgame. Where are the moments of emotional intimacy between Shepard and their LI? There's the rekindle date and the sex scene at the endgame, and otherwise, they're not there, while Liara has a handful of scripted intimate moments that, while avoidable, do not have counterparts for the other characters. That's what bothers me.

I agree with you 100%. The fact you see liara in the flashback at the end after you make you decision in regards to control, destroy or mergeing is stupid as well.

[Mcfly616]

Wow...people really need to get off the "Hate Liara" train......Forreal....

Yeah, I'm a Liara fan....and enjoyed the amount of time she was in the game....

However, there still wasn't enough....


Liara's not the problem.....the problem is that no squadmate had enough time. (I'm sorry but 2 short conversations on the Citadel and her "project" are not enough)

The Citadel conversations are like 30 seconds long and Liara's project plays out with the same dialogue, whether you romanced her or not.....

As I was saying, its not "too much Liara".....it that there isn't enough of any of the squadmates.....hell, I was disappointed with how Ashley was used and how long it takes to get her on your crew after Mars.....and with Tali.....


Yeah, Liara had the most screen time out of the squadmates.....but she still needed more....and if she needed more, than every squadmate needed a lot more time

[ckriley]

One of the things I noticed about ME3 that did kind of bug me was the fact that Liara did seem to be "forced" on you a bit too much. Even though she was my Shep's love interest, I think BW took away more player freedom and choice by making her essential for many missions in the game.

It's one thing if you're doing a character's loyalty mission like in ME2, or their own personal quest like in DA2, but there's no reason to be forced to take someone while out questing just because the developers want you to take someone.

Even in ME1 while going to Noveria, you weren't forced to take Liara even though you were looking for her own mother and eventually confronted her. Had that game come out today, I'm almost certain we would be forced to take her. It feels like a bit of a change of direction in the company's philosophy.

[luzburg]

no, no liara involved then its not intresting

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

You know whose forced friemdship was more annoying to me? Anderson. Not only do I like him less than Liara, he invades my ending flashback just like she does.

[Neria Rose]

Arlionis wrote...

No, you were saying that others characters suffer from that same fault but you only take offense with Liara because you happen not to like her.

Yep, you got it.

  
It still affects me because the developers spent resources on them that could have been used to develop and expand other characters like Jack, Samara, Miranda, etc. Characters that were only included in just one game while Tali and Garrus were included in three. That's unfair.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Garrus is optional in ME1, Tali is optional in ME2, and both can be dead in ME3. There could have been resources spent on someone other than Liara too, so.. yeah, what's your point?

   
Being biased isn't what makes your attitude immature, bashing and attacking a character online just because you don't like said character is what makes you immature.

Oh, sure, expressing your opinion is "immature". Oh, wait..

[Seifer006]

TNT1991 wrote...

I believe that most of the scenes with Liara and Shepard should have just been for those who actually romanced her, make some of those scenes special and unique for them.While everyone else, have another Li take the place for those scenes instead of Liara, but still have them unique from each other. But, IMO what we have right now, is just plain laziness...for both Liara lovers and non-Liara lovers. *ugh/sigh*

This

[Xeranx]

Arlionis wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Neria Rose wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Explain to me how is that Liara's fault and not a general problem with the game? I never liked Tali, I mistreated her constantly, I exposed her racist and inept father, got her exiled in ME2 and in ME1 never gave her the Geth data because I honestly never trusted her, yet she kept throwing herself very cheaply at my Shepard constantly in ME2 and in ME3 she pretended to meet with my Shepard in his cabin. Either she suffers from serious psychological issues or it's a writing problem. 

Is this what the anti-Liara crowd represents? misguided and biased criticizing based on either ignorance or bad intentions? 

And I always gave her the data in ME1, so in my games she never had that problem. In your games, I guess she's a psycho *shrugs* Doesn't affect me in the least. Just like in your games Liara presumably is a devoted lover while in mine she's an off-putting creep.

Same as Liara doesn't affect me in my own game because my Shepard is very friendly to her, that was precisely my point. You're trying to present a personal issue you have with her as a general issue. If this kind of behavior "is" Liara's fault then also Tali and other characters suffer from the same faul too. 
Blaming only Liara for it is immature and biased. 

So then what do you say to someone who initially went for Liara, thought Ashley was a b!tch, and later came to appreciate the latter while not having too negative opinion (or much of one) on the former?  That's where I am or rather, where I was until Liara became the focal point of everything Mass Effect.

The problem here is, when I see characters get sidelined for Liara I start to resent her character.  Look at how she goes from archeologist to (prolific!) information broker in the span of two years.  Mind you, she above all others was written to be more caring and appreciative of Shepard than anyone else.  Does your fandom blind you to that?  Such a contrivance on making Liara more integral to the story comes out of left field, but you don't see anything weird in that?  What about Liara clearly makes you think that her "development" is in any way natural?

This appears to be heated on my part, but it isn't.  I'm trying to get you to see that there is a very obvious statement about Liara's role in the series and there are characters that fit so much better in her role than anyone else.  She most certainly didn't need to become the Shadow Broker, but it was twisted to allow that to happen.  Many people who have criticized her becoming the Shadow Broker asked why she couldn't follow her archeological path towards something that's more in line with her character.  The fact is, the writers didn't do this and even in the game she was introduced in, she is overshadowed by another character that could fit her role better than she could on many fronts without going the "untouched" route.

Your whole comment can be summarized in just one word: opinions. You didn't like her development, I did. Whose opinion is more valid? yours or mine? that's right, depends on who's talking.

Don't try to force your own opinions and points of view on others.

My comment asked you to make a judgement about her development which you didn't do.  Opinion doesn't discount the fact that she didn't naturally become what she did.  Her own voice actor wondered what happened and the comics don't do anything to account for her dark turn from what I remember.  So what explains the shift?  You also chose to avoid the fact that Liara was written to care about Shepard more than anyone else.  She looked for Shepards body and didn't tell anyone else that she found him/her or that Shepard was given to Cerberus.  That would have caused a clear conflict with her and the VS especially if the VS was the LI for any particular Shepard.

Are you going to ignore those points again?  If so, then you shouldn't be saying anything if even an objective critique gives you cause to turn away.

[Barquiel]

Xeranx wrote...

My comment asked you to make a judgement about her development which you didn't do.  Opinion doesn't discount the fact that she didn't naturally become what she did.  Her own voice actor wondered what happened and the comics don't do anything to account for her dark turn from what I remember.  So what explains the shift?

It's not like she's completely lost her old personality. It's still there, it's just not there all the time. I think the only reason it seems like a big deal is because of how small a role Liara plays in ME2 (it's always funny to see how Garrus and Tali fans complain about "too much Liara"). The redemption comic and LOTSB were not released when Ali Hillis recorded her lines for Liara in ME2. If she had a bigger role in the main game and you got to know more about what happened to her in the past two years then perhaps it wouldn't seem like as drastic of a change as it appears to be. Liara also tries to be a different person on Illium, but that doesn't make her a different character.

Modifié par Barquiel, 15 mai 2012 - 07:25 .

[Xeranx]

Barquiel wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

My comment asked you to make a judgement about her development which you didn't do.  Opinion doesn't discount the fact that she didn't naturally become what she did.  Her own voice actor wondered what happened and the comics don't do anything to account for her dark turn from what I remember.  So what explains the shift?

It's not like she's completely lost her old personality. It's still there, it's just not there all the time. I think the only reason it seems like a big deal is because of how small a role Liara plays in ME2 (it's always funny to see how Garrus and Tali fans complain about "too much Liara"). The redemption comic and LOTSB were not released when Ali Hillis recorded her lines for Liara in ME2. If she had a bigger role in the main game and you got to know more about what happened to her in the past two years then perhaps it wouldn't seem like as drastic of a change as it appears to be. Liara also tries to be a different person on Illium, but that doesn't make her a different character.

I never said she lost her old personality, but I question how she got to where she was.  She went from telling Shepard she is nothing like Benezia to using the same words on a "client" when you enter the room or at least the same message.  And I never said that Redemption or LOTSB were out when the lines were recorded.  By the way, Hillis grew more comfortable with Liara by the time LOTSB came around.  But Hillis did say that she didn't understand why Liara was speaking the way she initialy was which says to me that she has or had an idea of what Liara is like.  Her more than any one of us players.  So if she questions the shift, why can't we (though we most likely questioned before we learned of Hillis' comment)?

Redemption and LOTSB being out or not when Hillis recorded the lines has nothing to do with Hillis' take on the character.  However, they do have something to do with Liara's development as a character in that it doesn't explain how she got to where she did.  Liara's big mission was to recover Shepard's body, but it was just her and no one else.  She was the only one so attached that she "couldn't let" Shepard go.  Anyway, she succeeds in recovering Shepard and gives the body to Cerberus of all groups.  By that time, she had not gone through a drastic change to make her as dark or cold as she was even with who she gave Shepard's body to.  And let's consider the likelihood of her knowing what Cerberus had done before that exchange, there's a greater probability that she knew who she was relying on to perform a miracle.

Being different from what was previously is not a good or bad thing considering what the changes are.  The problems with something being different crop up when you can't make a connection to how that came to be.  In real people things can "break" and drastic changes can happen.  In written work, there's usually a reason applied or expressed so that you can see the whole thing unfold.  That's the point of development for anything or anybody.
I haven't seen anything that mimics proper development in Liara's case from ME to ME2.

[Grimwick]

Seifer006 wrote...

TNT1991 wrote...

I believe that most of the scenes with Liara and Shepard should have just been for those who actually romanced her, make some of those scenes special and unique for them.While everyone else, have another Li take the place for those scenes instead of Liara, but still have them unique from each other. But, IMO what we have right now, is just plain laziness...for both Liara lovers and non-Liara lovers. *ugh/sigh*

This

+1.

Half of the Liara LI is made up from generic scenes with Liara anyway, there are only a few lines extra. If they cut the content just slightly for non-romance people and used kept the cut scenes for the Li it would have made the game feel more genuine for everyone.

[RevanShepard]

To answer the OP's question, yes there was too much Liara.

Actually, let me clarify a bit. Between the ME1 love interests, Kaiden/Ashley get put into a coma for half the game while Liara joins you post-Mars and can be at your side for the rest of the game. And then she comes to your room to talk. And we are FORCED to converse with her. By comparison, we don't have to say one peep to Kaiden/Ashley while they're in the hospital if we don't want to.

In other words, It's not that there is too much Liara, its that there isn't enough for the rest of the possible love interests. I wouldn't mind all those talks with Liara if I had gotten similar time with Ashley, you know when she's not unconscious.

[Frostmourne86]

I think part of the problem is that, when you look at all the other squadmates' actions after the beginning of ME 2, they all acted more mature and moved on with their lives (Tali and Garrus included); Liara was the only one who had this immature fixation on Shepard and the Shadow Broker.

[Grimwick]

Frostmourne86 wrote...

I think part of the problem is that, when you look at all the other squadmates' actions after the beginning of ME 2, they all acted more mature and moved on with their lives (Tali and Garrus included); Liara was the only one who had this immature fixation on Shepard and the Shadow Broker.

Tali instead develops a fixation on mShep. Liara is only more noticeable because she can romance both genders... MShep and Tali is far worse than Liara is imo.

[Frostmourne86]

Grimwick wrote...

Frostmourne86 wrote...

I think part of the problem is that, when you look at all the other squadmates' actions after the beginning of ME 2, they all acted more mature and moved on with their lives (Tali and Garrus included); Liara was the only one who had this immature fixation on Shepard and the Shadow Broker.

Tali instead develops a fixation on mShep. Liara is only more noticeable because she can romance both genders... MShep and Tali is far worse than Liara is imo.

If  you discuss Tali with Liara in LoSB, Liara knew that Tali was infatuated with Shepard [in ME 1], but Tali didn't do anything to take it further, and moved on with her life, while Liara spent two years tracking down the Shadow Broker for giving the Collector's information about Shepard's body/location.  It seems to be pretty infantile to hold a grudge for that long.

Modifié par Frostmourne86, 15 mai 2012 - 09:42 .

[tschamp]

I really enjoyed breaking her heart when I choose not to romance her in ME 3. I stomped on it, crushed it my hands, and throw her heart out the air lock.

Seriously, she was hamfisted into be "critical" character in the game instead of your other LI. Tali, Jack, Marianda, Ashley, and even Kelly as LI was shoved into,"Oh...you picked them instead...well we didn't do a DLC for them in ME 2 so...HERE IS LARIA IN YOUR FACE!"

[sistersafetypin]

 There can never be to much Liara. In fact, there was to little Little Wing 

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 15 mai 2012 - 10:00 .

[Barquiel]

Frostmourne86 wrote...

I think part of the problem is that, when you look at all the other squadmates' actions after the beginning of ME 2, they all acted more mature and moved on with their lives (Tali and Garrus included); Liara was the only one who had this immature fixation on Shepard and the Shadow Broker.

Liara didn't drop everything in order to join Shepard in ME2 ("The universe doesn't work that way Shepard. I can't drop everything for you. I have debts that need repaying"). She also knew the SB worked for the collectors.

Garrus had nothing better to do than to play batman on Omega (completely pointless...he knew the reapers are coming) and Tali went back to helping her Father with the war against the Geth. I don't know how this is more mature than Liara's activities.

[Linkenski]

jojimbo wrote...

Not enough Liara, but then she was my love interest because
1. Ash just didnt cut it,
2. Tali's feet...eeewwww!

so NO,

...but Miranda's ass, c'mon man 

[dublin omega 223]

Barquiel wrote...

Frostmourne86 wrote...

I think part of the problem is that, when you look at all the other squadmates' actions after the beginning of ME 2, they all acted more mature and moved on with their lives (Tali and Garrus included); Liara was the only one who had this immature fixation on Shepard and the Shadow Broker.

Liara didn't drop everything in order to join Shepard in ME2 ("The universe doesn't work that way Shepard. I can't drop everything for you. I have debts that need repaying"). She also knew the SB worked for the collectors.

Garrus had nothing better to do than to play batman on Omega (completely pointless...he knew the reapers are coming) and Tali went back to helping her Father with the war against the Geth. I don't know how this is more mature than Liara's activities.

Ok heres something to dispute this, if Garrus and Tali had known what was going down with the SB and Shep's body, they would have mist likely helped Liara out. And they were moving on with their lives after Shepard's death thats why Tali went back to the fleet and Garrus became the dark knight of Omega.

[AntonioA9011]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Blueberry is a developer favourite.

I dislike how her romance is considered 'canon', seriously, she makes a good enough friend, I didn't need her DAD thinking we were ****ing each other in my Garrusmance.

Yes. I mean, I like her. She's a good character, but I didn't appreciate the fact that BioWare shoved her down our throats in every single game. She was just THERE ALL of the time. She just didn't need all of that screen time if you didn't romance her character. I liked the direction her character was going in ME2, but then in ME3 she's back to being Liara from ME1, except now with larger breasts.

[Lozark]

Yeah. Her forced friendship comes off as creepy, she's forced into the party more than the other characters, and then apparently my Shep's last thoughts are of her no matter what I do. I guess the Liara fans are happy, and I don't begrudge them that, but I wish that Bioware put that much effort into the other characters. Maybe then we'd have had proper ME2 romances =\\

Also, her becoming the Shadow Broker seems really pointless.  Traynor is the one who finds out almost all the intel in the end.

Modifié par Lozark, 15 mai 2012 - 10:44 .