200 réponses à ce sujet

[RoboticWater]

ashdrake1 wrote...
So the reapers are right in remaking us?  It's the same logic.  The original being no longer exists.  That is not peace.

No, it is not right for Reapers to remake us but it is to remake that AI. It was inherently violent and shot everything on sight. All species will try to create an equalibrium with its environment. That AI would have just tried to desrtoy everything without really knowing why. Sure, we could have tried to transmit data about peace and simbyosis but that neither solves the immediate problem nor is a sure way to stop the violence.

Modifié par BlahDog, 20 mars 2012 - 01:53 .

[CaptainZaysh]

TK EL wrote...

So the golden child's logic of 'to prevent organics from creating synthetics that will eventually destroy them, I'm going to use synthetics to destroy the organics before they get destroyed by their own synthetics' is a better solution than hoping that new found peace lasts?

It's not destroying them.  It uplifts them and preserves them in Reaper form, then resets the clock, thus guaranteeing the continued existence of organic life in the Milky Way.  A guarantee is better than hope.

[Fliprot]

What if you just want to make that argument in hopes star child buys it? I know I would.

[CaptainZaysh]

aberdash wrote...

Do you condemn all synthetics to death for something they might do?

Couldn't see a better option.  Didn't relish it, that's for sure.

[LegendaryBlade]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

After they had the planet and stayed behind the veil we have absolutely no sign of aggression from them outside the veil without reaper influence. They wished no harm on their creaters and stated numerous time sthat they only wished to understand.

According to Legion, the only thing that stops peace with the Quarians; "We would need significant data that the Quarians actually wished for peace. When the creaters believed that they could win, they have attacked us 100% of the time"

Do you accept that, if you let them evolve into a superintelligence, you're gambling all organic life on their continued sunny disposition?

With all available information? Yes, i'd be willing to bet that fully aware AI Geth would continue on their current path of Isolation, or if you made the decision on ME3, peace with Quarians. Infact, Tali mentions that the Geth have significantly expedited the rate at which Quarians will be able to live outside of their suits.

Nothing in their history shows any sign they would suddenly become aggressive as a super intelligence. It's only fear that makes anyone think that is the case.

[TK EL_]

You know the fascinating thing that mass effect knowing/unknowingly promotes? If you notice, the two fully formed AI(not specific function VI like the one on the citadel in ME1) that we know of in the universe (the geth and EDI) despite knowing of the weakness of organics and not being bound to abstract concepts like hope, love etc., still have great respect for and even desire to be more like organics. In that light how can that ending explanation make ANY sense?

[TieRantaSaurusWrex]

But how is that any different from Organics meeting Organics?

not to mention when Edi was hostile she wasn't a free thinker, she was a VI.

Then Cerberus remade her to a Shackled AI, and she was nice and peaceful, and when we unshackled her nothing changed. She was still nice and friendly.

[CaptainZaysh]

LegendaryBlade wrote...

With all available information? Yes, i'd be willing to bet that fully aware AI Geth would continue on their current path of Isolation, or if you made the decision on ME3, peace with Quarians. Infact, Tali mentions that the Geth have significantly expedited the rate at which Quarians will be able to live outside of their suits.

Nothing in their history shows any sign they would suddenly become aggressive as a super intelligence. It's only fear that makes anyone think that is the case.

And you're okay with putting our civilisation's future entirely in the hands of some alien robots?

[ashdrake1]

aberdash wrote...

So you came to the conclusion that synthetics and organics cannot live peacefully with each other because the quarians attacked the geth?

Quite the contrary, I came to conclusion that we have been unable to reason with any AI.  The geth came to that conclusion without input from organics.  The only thing that has been shown to sway a AI's outlook is anouther AI.  See geth and reapers.

[mauro2222]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

aberdash wrote...

Do you condemn all synthetics to death for something they might do?

Couldn't see a better option.  Didn't relish it, that's for sure.

I have the same right to kill you then, who knows what could happen to you in the future? The potential is there always.

[LegendaryBlade]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

With all available information? Yes, i'd be willing to bet that fully aware AI Geth would continue on their current path of Isolation, or if you made the decision on ME3, peace with Quarians. Infact, Tali mentions that the Geth have significantly expedited the rate at which Quarians will be able to live outside of their suits.

Nothing in their history shows any sign they would suddenly become aggressive as a super intelligence. It's only fear that makes anyone think that is the case.

And you're okay with putting our civilisation's future entirely in the hands of some alien robots?

You're making some pretty gigantic leaps of logic here. Seems like blind fear, reading over your posts.

This is almost the same as saying a pre-emptive strike on China is okay because if we let them keep increasing their numbers and technology the entire future of the world will be at stake. We don't know that's the case.

[TK EL_]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

TK EL wrote...

So the golden child's logic of 'to prevent organics from creating synthetics that will eventually destroy them, I'm going to use synthetics to destroy the organics before they get destroyed by their own synthetics' is a better solution than hoping that new found peace lasts?

It's not destroying them.  It uplifts them and preserves them in Reaper form, then resets the clock, thus guaranteeing the continued existence of organic life in the Milky Way.  A guarantee is better than hope.

Sorry but I call bs. This would have made sense if what Sovereign said was true about each of the reapers being a nation of unified mind and thought, but the star child clearly says he controls them, so their unified mind doesnt count for squat. Also, during each 'uplifment cycle', some reapers are destroyed, essentially undoing their supposed noble goal. Its also made clear that not every species is 'uplifted', hence genocide for all the other species that aren't 'worthy'. Like I said bs

[Dire Wombat]

At least we would HAVE some support for our position, whereas his assertion is just based on "because I said so," and all of his logic is comically, tragically bad.

I mean, this thing is the greatest mass murderer in history, by many orders of magnitude, and it's feeding you self-contradicting, illogical bull**** from the mouth of a child it murdered. And we don't even get to DISAGREE with it? Maybe it's so arrogant or uncaring that you can never make it change its mind, but you don't even get to TRY? You just have to meekly accept what it says at face value, and then become its willing accomplice in carrying out more atrocities?

**** that. I know people will think I'm exaggerating, but I have literally never hated the ending of any story, in any medium, as much as I hate this one. So. Bad.

[CaptainZaysh]

TK EL wrote...

You know the fascinating thing that mass effect knowing/unknowingly promotes? If you notice, the two fully formed AI(not specific function VI like the one on the citadel in ME1) that we know of in the universe (the geth and EDI) despite knowing of the weakness of organics and not being bound to abstract concepts like hope, love etc., still have great respect for and even desire to be more like organics. In that light how can that ending explanation make ANY sense?

That's the original poster's point.  The geth may be friendly right now, but that's because they're not interested in fighting with us at the moment.  They just want to evolve into a higher form of intelligence.

The trouble is that if their intentions change after they become Reapers, we're screwed.  Really screwed.  I think the Catalyst was right; given enough time and events, wars versus synthetics are inevitable, and given enough wars versus synthetics, an organic defeat is inevitable.

[Redwing198403]

Its the same with the Krogan and Rachni. You can give them a chance but when it comes to organics and synthetics.... nope become a reaper... Lame.

Modifié par Redwing198403, 20 mars 2012 - 02:04 .

[RoboticWater]

ashdrake1 wrote...

aberdash wrote...

So you came to the conclusion that synthetics and organics cannot live peacefully with each other because the quarians attacked the geth?

Quite the contrary, I came to conclusion that we have been unable to reason with any AI.  The geth came to that conclusion without input from organics.  The only thing that has been shown to sway a AI's outlook is anouther AI.  See geth and reapers.

Except for the fact that we can reason with EDI.

[CaptainZaysh]

mauro2222 wrote...

I have the same right to kill you then, who knows what could happen to you in the future? The potential is there always.

I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess that you have never received formal training in threat assessment.  

[Izithel]

ashdrake1 wrote...

aberdash wrote...

So you came to the conclusion that synthetics and organics cannot live peacefully with each other because the quarians attacked the geth?

Quite the contrary, I came to conclusion that we have been unable to reason with any AI.  The geth came to that conclusion without input from organics.  The only thing that has been shown to sway a AI's outlook is anouther AI.  See geth and reapers.

Or Sheppard, I think the games imply many times that not a single organic every tried to get friendly contatact with the Geth?
The Quarians still regarded them as non sentient machines that needed to be destroyed and everyone else just didnt care.

[ashdrake1]

LegendaryBlade wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

After they had the planet and stayed behind the veil we have absolutely no sign of aggression from them outside the veil without reaper influence. They wished no harm on their creaters and stated numerous time sthat they only wished to understand.

According to Legion, the only thing that stops peace with the Quarians; "We would need significant data that the Quarians actually wished for peace. When the creaters believed that they could win, they have attacked us 100% of the time"

Do you accept that, if you let them evolve into a superintelligence, you're gambling all organic life on their continued sunny disposition?

With all available information? Yes, i'd be willing to bet that fully aware AI Geth would continue on their current path of Isolation, or if you made the decision on ME3, peace with Quarians. Infact, Tali mentions that the Geth have significantly expedited the rate at which Quarians will be able to live outside of their suits.

Nothing in their history shows any sign they would suddenly become aggressive as a super intelligence. It's only fear that makes anyone think that is the case.

This is not the point of the argument.  The geth have always been as such, until the reapers were able to sway a portion of them.  History has not shown organics being able to sway an AI in the same fashion.  It has always been a violent alteration of the being to do so.

[CaptainZaysh]

Redwing198403 wrote...

Its the same with the Krogan and Rachni. You can give them a chance but when it comes to organics and synthetics.... nope become a reaper... Lame.

Yeah I neutralised both of them, too.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

To OP: Your Shepard can trust the reaper if he wants to, mine don't believe in determinism.

[Jayce]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Do you accept that, if you let them evolve into a superintelligence, you're gambling all organic life on their continued sunny disposition?

Logic faliure. What gives synthetics less right to life than organics and even if they do out evolve us and render us extinct so what?

Organic species render other competing species extinct ALL THE TIME. If you accept the basic premise that sentience in whatever form has a right to life, then IF synthetics out evolve us, that is Darwinism in action and just too bad for organics.

Essentially, the Catalyst is pushing the evolutionary reset button. The Reapers are the peak of organic evolution because the Catalyst is rendering them incapable of further evolution, not because they are the peak.

The Reapers and the Catalyst are using the exact same argument Zaysh is using in reverse. They are an evolutionary dead end using circular logic to justify their existence and their 'Cycle' has no existentialist merit whatsoever.

Modifié par Jayce F, 20 mars 2012 - 02:11 .

[aberdash]

ashdrake1 wrote...


Quite the contrary, I came to conclusion that we have been unable to reason with any AI.  The geth came to that conclusion without input from organics.  The only thing that has been shown to sway a AI's outlook is anouther AI.  See geth and reapers.

No attempt to reason with the geth was made prior to shepards attmept. The quarians were always "we ned 2 tak bak ur plnet!".

[ashdrake1]

TK EL wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

TK EL wrote...

So the golden child's logic of 'to prevent organics from creating synthetics that will eventually destroy them, I'm going to use synthetics to destroy the organics before they get destroyed by their own synthetics' is a better solution than hoping that new found peace lasts?

It's not destroying them.  It uplifts them and preserves them in Reaper form, then resets the clock, thus guaranteeing the continued existence of organic life in the Milky Way.  A guarantee is better than hope.

Sorry but I call bs. This would have made sense if what Sovereign said was true about each of the reapers being a nation of unified mind and thought, but the star child clearly says he controls them, so their unified mind doesnt count for squat. Also, during each 'uplifment cycle', some reapers are destroyed, essentially undoing their supposed noble goal. Its also made clear that not every species is 'uplifted', hence genocide for all the other species that aren't 'worthy'. Like I said bs

First off this is not a defense of the ending, simply one aspect that people have a issue with.  Second.  He never states he controls them, only that he created them.  His statement about uplifting could still be true.

[Midarenkov]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

TK EL wrote...

You know the fascinating thing that mass effect knowing/unknowingly promotes? If you notice, the two fully formed AI(not specific function VI like the one on the citadel in ME1) that we know of in the universe (the geth and EDI) despite knowing of the weakness of organics and not being bound to abstract concepts like hope, love etc., still have great respect for and even desire to be more like organics. In that light how can that ending explanation make ANY sense?

That's the original poster's point.  The geth may be friendly right now, but that's because they're not interested in fighting with us at the moment.  They just want to evolve into a higher form of intelligence.

The trouble is that if their intentions change after they become Reapers, we're screwed.  Really screwed.  I think the Catalyst was right; given enough time and events, wars versus synthetics are inevitable, and given enough wars versus synthetics, an organic defeat is inevitable.

It's fine for you to think it's an unacceptable risk. You have the red beam of doom at your disposal to permanently eliminate the option. However, you cannot at any point argue the opposite.