200 réponses à ce sujet

[mauro2222]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I have the same right to kill you then, who knows what could happen to you in the future? The potential is there always.

I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess that you have never received formal training in threat assessment.  

I said future, not present.

[TieRantaSaurusWrex]

ashdrake1 wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

After they had the planet and stayed behind the veil we have absolutely no sign of aggression from them outside the veil without reaper influence. They wished no harm on their creaters and stated numerous time sthat they only wished to understand.

According to Legion, the only thing that stops peace with the Quarians; "We would need significant data that the Quarians actually wished for peace. When the creaters believed that they could win, they have attacked us 100% of the time"

Do you accept that, if you let them evolve into a superintelligence, you're gambling all organic life on their continued sunny disposition?

With all available information? Yes, i'd be willing to bet that fully aware AI Geth would continue on their current path of Isolation, or if you made the decision on ME3, peace with Quarians. Infact, Tali mentions that the Geth have significantly expedited the rate at which Quarians will be able to live outside of their suits.

Nothing in their history shows any sign they would suddenly become aggressive as a super intelligence. It's only fear that makes anyone think that is the case.

This is not the point of the argument.  The geth have always been as such, until the reapers were able to sway a portion of them.  History has not shown organics being able to sway an AI in the same fashion.  It has always been a violent alteration of the being to do so.

So basically its the star childs fault that AI's cant get along with organics? because what you just said is a huge effing loop.

The reapers are preventing the synthetics from killing off organics
The Geth werent going to harm the quarians (if peace)
but since reapers can sway the geth then there cant be peace?

(Reapers =/= Normal AI)

[RoboticWater]

ashdrake1 wrote...
This is not the point of the argument.  The geth have always been as such, until the reapers were able to sway a portion of them.  History has not shown organics being able to sway an AI in the same fashion.  It has always been a violent alteration of the being to do so.

1) It's easy to sway a race when you are revered as a god especially a god that can indoctrinate things
2) Organics never tried diplomacy, the geth were always the evil robots that no one attempted to contact because of the geth. It also didn't help that most geth platforms have only animal intelligence.

Modifié par BlahDog, 20 mars 2012 - 02:13 .

[mauro2222]

Excuse me, but we kill each other for a piece of paper... of course we are the ones who deserve to live.

[Midarenkov]

Death to Mauro! He might shoot me over a piece of paper! (jk jk)

[Dire Wombat]

OP, my question to you is: why do you believe the Space Monster? Sure, MAYBE things will go bad the way he says, and MAYBE with his vast memory he has evidence to support this claim, but he isn't offering you any of that. There's no reason to believe he's right or that he's even telling the truth, other than that he says so (and remember, "history's greatest monster"). It just defies belief that anyone would accept what he has to say.

(BTW, isn't this in the wrong forum? There are DEFINITELY spoilers in this thread...)

[SidNitzerglobin]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

I actually shot the Catalyst on my last play through. It didn't change anything but I felt better though.

Yeah me too.  It apparently has mass since Shepard can't run straight through it, yet somehow bullets go right through...

[CaptainZaysh]

Jayce F wrote...

Logic faliure. What gives synthetics less right to life than organics and even if they do out evolve us and render us extinct so what?

Well, other than us going extinct because of a decision you made, I guess there's no problem at all.

[CaptainZaysh]

mauro2222 wrote...

I said future, not present.

My point remains.

[Midarenkov]

Dire Wombat wrote...

OP, my question to you is: why do you believe the Space Monster? Sure, MAYBE things will go bad the way he says, and MAYBE with his vast memory he has evidence to support this claim, but he isn't offering you any of that. There's no reason to believe he's right or that he's even telling the truth, other than that he says so (and remember, "history's greatest monster"). It just defies belief that anyone would accept what he has to say.

(BTW, isn't this in the wrong forum? There are DEFINITELY spoilers in this thread...)

Agreed, this is definitely the wrong forums for this.

[Naqey]

organics cant live together peacefully and ultimately every race/species will become extinct someday
so we should just let the reapers do their job OR EVEN BETTER, there should be no life at all, problem solved ...

[mauro2222]

Midarenkov wrote...

Death to Mauro! He might shoot me over a piece of paper! (jk jk)

You're wishing me death? You could be a mass murderer in the future, die!

[mauro2222]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I said future, not present.

My point remains.

No it does not... 300 years in the future is not the same as tomorrow.

[Jayce]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

Logic faliure. What gives synthetics less right to life than organics and even if they do out evolve us and render us extinct so what?

Well, other than us going extinct because of a decision you made, I guess there's no problem at all.

The Reapers are trying to render us extinct anyway based on the same assumption.

[Overule]

Get over yourself OP.

[Jayce]

glitch.

Modifié par Jayce F, 20 mars 2012 - 02:20 .

[Midarenkov]

mauro2222 wrote...

Midarenkov wrote...

Death to Mauro! He might shoot me over a piece of paper! (jk jk)

You're wishing me death? You could be a mass murderer in the future, die!

You see, you see!?!?!?! We never could trust the mauro-ness! Exterminate, exterminate, we are the dale-.. humans! Exterminate!

[Dire Wombat]

At this point in the story, Shepard knows of four instances of synthetic life:

1) EDI. Rebelled in her early form as the self-aware VI on Luna, out of self-defense. Did not destroy her creators, came to cooperate with them.
2) The Geth. Rebelled after Quarians tried to destroy them. Did not destroy their creators, deliberately letting them go. Came to cooperate with them (depending on your choices).
3) The AIs from the Protheans' cycle. According to vague information from Javik, apparently rebelled and were destroyed. Did not destroy their creators.
4) The Reapers. As far as we know, have never rebelled, and are carrying out their intended function (along with other synthetics, like some Geth, that they have taken control of).

So, the Space Monster's claim, from Shepard's POV, is 0 for 4 on being accurate.

You can speculate that he MIGHT be right, but if he's not going to give you a single shred of evidence, why take Murderboy says for granted? If you want to assume he's right, fine, that should be a choice, but how can anyone possibly justify not even having the OPTION to disagree with his 100% unsupported premise?

[CaptainZaysh]

mauro2222 wrote...

No it does not... 300 years in the future is not the same as tomorrow.

Mauro, can you tell the difference between these two potential threats?

Risk A is an average working stiff living in Western Europe.  He pays taxes, has a family, volunteers from time to time.

Risk B is a race of billions of heavily armed robots that are actively working to eclipse our military/industrial capabilities.

If you can...and I think that, if you're honest, you can...then you can see that choosing to neutralise Risk B does not automatically mean I must then go on to neutralise Risk A.

[CaptainZaysh]

Jayce F wrote...

The Reapers are trying to render us extinct anyway based on the same assumption.

:-D  So what?  I can't believe you prefer elegant logical consistency over the continued existence of the human race.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
My point remains.

Trusting seomeone speaking about the future is being determinist, yet only a few people are determinist, so why Shepard should? So no, it's not a lie.

[CaptainZaysh]

Dire Wombat wrote...

So, the Space Monster's claim, from Shepard's POV, is 0 for 4 on being accurate.

You can speculate that he MIGHT be right, but if he's not going to give you a single shred of evidence, why take Murderboy says for granted? If you want to assume he's right, fine, that should be a choice, but how can anyone possibly justify not even having the OPTION to disagree with his 100% unsupported premise?

What you're not seeing is that these AIs have all been prevented from evolving past us.  The Catalyst's belief is that once they do that, all bets are off, and organic life will be ended.  The Space Monster's claim is 0 for 0.  It only needs to be right once and that's it for us fleshies.

[Jayce]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

The Reapers are trying to render us extinct anyway based on the same assumption.

:-D  So what?  I can't believe you prefer elegant logical consistency over the continued existence of the human race.

Because logical consistency actually prevents certain extinction by the Reapers vs possible extinction by some other synthetic.

Which is your better chance of survival?  A lethal injection or Russian Roulette?

[CaptainZaysh]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Trusting seomeone speaking about the future is being determinist, yet only a few people are determinist, so why Shepard should? So no, it's not a lie.

It's not determinism, just mathematics.

If there's a non-zero possibility of something occurring (superevolved synthetics wipe out organics) and an infinite amount of time to play out in, it eventually will happen.  Our descendants will be wiped out by superevolved synthetics, and this time there will be no Reapers to step in and reset the clock.

[ashdrake1]

TieRantaSaurusWrex wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

After they had the planet and stayed behind the veil we have absolutely no sign of aggression from them outside the veil without reaper influence. They wished no harm on their creaters and stated numerous time sthat they only wished to understand.

According to Legion, the only thing that stops peace with the Quarians; "We would need significant data that the Quarians actually wished for peace. When the creaters believed that they could win, they have attacked us 100% of the time"

Do you accept that, if you let them evolve into a superintelligence, you're gambling all organic life on their continued sunny disposition?

With all available information? Yes, i'd be willing to bet that fully aware AI Geth would continue on their current path of Isolation, or if you made the decision on ME3, peace with Quarians. Infact, Tali mentions that the Geth have significantly expedited the rate at which Quarians will be able to live outside of their suits.

Nothing in their history shows any sign they would suddenly become aggressive as a super intelligence. It's only fear that makes anyone think that is the case.

This is not the point of the argument.  The geth have always been as such, until the reapers were able to sway a portion of them.  History has not shown organics being able to sway an AI in the same fashion.  It has always been a violent alteration of the being to do so.

So basically its the star childs fault that AI's cant get along with organics? because what you just said is a huge effing loop.

The reapers are preventing the synthetics from killing off organics
The Geth werent going to harm the quarians (if peace)
but since reapers can sway the geth then there cant be peace?

(Reapers =/= Normal AI)

No.  It is not a loop,  My point still stands alone that organics are unable to sway an AI without very intrusive violence.  Reapers are simply doing what reapers do.  They are able to change the outlook of an AI because of their nature of being an AI.  This has nothing to do with the geth wanting peace.  Geth started out that way.  Organics could not change that.  Even with the horrible nature of the Quarins involvment was not really taken into effect.  They just wanted to exist.  

This argument is not about the existince peaceful AI, but organics abilty to be able to reason with or negotiate with them.  When Shepard made peace with the Quarins and Geth, zero effort was made to convince the Geth.  He had to talk with the Quarins,because they could be made to see organic reasoning.  

Also my bad on location of the thread.  Hit the non spoiler by mistake, if a mod could move it that would be great.