200 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Considering where I live, I would probably not exist is there wasn't Hitler and the **** things, that doesn't makes them any better.

Yeah, true.

[mauro2222]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

It's inevitable that they will exist.  AIs in Shepard's universe have already achieved self awareness, and the geth are actively working towards exceeding organic intelligence levels.  It's just a given: barring some galactic cataclysm they will eventually be created.  That's what the Catalyst provided, a regular galactic cataclysm.  Without it, we wouldn't have had humanity, so it's not all bad if you think about it.

You see, that's your problem, you think they are competing. They are working to better themselves, not to be better than us.

[CaptainZaysh]

mauro2222 wrote...

You are the one who "wants", you don't see them in that way, you want them to be a bloodthirsty tiger in order to have a justification for killing them. You're fooling yourself with the irrational fear of "what if".

That's why I can kill you with the same line of thinking.

I haven't explained myself very well, sorry.  There are two parts to a threat assessment, capability and intent.

I do not have the capability or the intent to wipe out humanity.  Therefore I am a low risk.

The geth do not currently have the intent to wipe out humanity.  But they are actively developing the capability to do so.  That makes them a high risk since, once they have the capability, all that needs to happen is for them to change their intent and then we are all dead.

I'm thinking about both aspects, and you're just thinking about intent, which is the least important bit really.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 20 mars 2012 - 03:09 .

[CaptainZaysh]

mauro2222 wrote...

You see, that's your problem, you think they are competing. They are working to better themselves, not to be better than us.

Sure, but they won't stop bettering themselves.  And when they're better than us, it's up to them whether we live or die.  I prefer to keep control over that decision.

[Darth Death]

The star child is the biggest hypocrite in the galaxy.

[RedMike512]

Lie to him? I just want to kill it.

[mauro2222]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

You see, that's your problem, you think they are competing. They are working to better themselves, not to be better than us.

Sure, but they won't stop bettering themselves.  And when they're better than us, it's up to them whether we live or die.  I prefer to keep control over that decision.

Figures... like the USA and nuclear power, if a country develops nuclear power is wrong, but as long as they have the power to blow up the entire planet 30 times its ok. Hipocrisy.

[mauro2222]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

You are the one who "wants", you don't see them in that way, you want them to be a bloodthirsty tiger in order to have a justification for killing them. You're fooling yourself with the irrational fear of "what if".

That's why I can kill you with the same line of thinking.

I haven't explained myself very well, sorry.  There are two parts to a threat assessment, capability and intent.

I do not have the capability or the intent to wipe out humanity.  Therefore I am a low risk.

The geth do not currently have the intent to wipe out humanity.  But they are actively developing the capability to do so.  That makes them a high risk since, once they have the capability, all that needs to happen is for them to change their intent and then we are all dead.

I'm thinking about both aspects, and you're just thinking about intent, which is the least important bit really.

You also can change the intent and kill somebody, yet you're allowed to live.

Everyone has the power to kill somebody, yet the intent is what matters, so don't contradict yourself by telling me that the intent is not important.

And you're doing what the geth could have done long before. Why allow the quarians to grow when they could kill us all gived the chance.

Modifié par mauro2222, 20 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[Chaoswind]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

You see, that's your problem, you think they are competing. They are working to better themselves, not to be better than us.

Sure, but they won't stop bettering themselves.  And when they're better than us, it's up to them whether we live or die.  I prefer to keep control over that decision.

The Geth said many times they believe in self determination, and that also applies to organic life, they would be more interested in watching your growth than killing you.

[CaptainZaysh]

mauro2222 wrote...

Figures... like the USA and nuclear power, if a country develops nuclear power is wrong, but as long as they have the power to blow up the entire planet 30 times its ok. Hipocrisy.

Well, politics and warfare aren't supposed to be about fair play.  The USA would be pretty stupid to let more of their enemies get nukes.

[CaptainZaysh]

Chaoswind wrote...

The Geth said many times they believe in self determination, and that also applies to organic life, they would be more interested in watching your growth than killing you.

That's a hell of a gamble.  You'll understand why I felt it would be irresponsible to take it.

[Legion64]

*Shoots Catalyst*

"**** your choices! They're terrible!"

*Goes back down elevator*

*Goes back to control panel and turns on Crucible*

"There we go, time to go back down that beam."

What I would have done.

[Jayce]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

Even if you accept a zero probability, why does it care if organics become extinct? 

Its whole purpose is to preserve organic civilisation (in general).  I can only speculate as to why; my Shepard was too busy bleeding out to ask it.

And that's why you and I have a different opinion of the ending. You don't care about the Catalysts motivation, I and alot other others do and are pissed authorial fiat railroaded us into compliance when the games own narrative cried out for Shepard to object.

Modifié par Jayce F, 20 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[monsieur_wiseman]

two points : the star child is more than a ai, he is a sentient being (like reapers), he is impressed to see shepard before him. and regognize that thing are change. life evolve.
there the second point, shepard is here because of freewill, if war will return between organics and synthetics, it will be our choice like when dertsoy or save a specie, like when we give freewill to the geth. We don't to be be preserve, we want to be alive. That's the thing starchild don't understand, he is wrong. He can't aknowlegde friendship, love, sacrifice, like it doesn't count.....

That's the defect, in mass effect those have to count for something. Or freedom is a joke and there is only fate and all we do in our lives don't matter.

Modifié par monsieur_wiseman, 20 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[ecarden]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

You see, that's your problem, you think they are competing. They are working to better themselves, not to be better than us.

Sure, but they won't stop bettering themselves.  And when they're better than us, it's up to them whether we live or die.  I prefer to keep control over that decision.

Unless, of course, we keep bettering ourselves, by, for instance, unifying the galaxy, learning from past mistakes, trading with the Geth and salvaging the Reapers tech (though not, hopefully, anything indoctrinating).

There are many ways to keep people on the level and attacking anyone who climbs up is the very worst, for humans, just like for crabs.

[mauro2222]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Figures... like the USA and nuclear power, if a country develops nuclear power is wrong, but as long as they have the power to blow up the entire planet 30 times its ok. Hipocrisy.

Well, politics and warfare aren't supposed to be about fair play.  The USA would be pretty stupid to let more of their enemies get nukes.

Everyone is an enemy it seems.

[ashdrake1]

Legion64 wrote...

*Shoots Catalyst*

"**** your choices! They're terrible!"

*Goes back down elevator*

*Goes back to control panel and turns on Crucible*

"There we go, time to go back down that beam."

What I would have done.

This is not about the Catalyst choices.  This is about AI's and organics

[CaptainZaysh]

mauro2222 wrote...

You also can change the intent and kill somebody, yet you're allowed to live.

Everyone has the power to kill somebody, yet the intent is what matters, so don't contradict yourself by telling me that the intent is not important.

Sure, but the capability to kill a handful of people (me) is not the same as the capability to kill all of humanity (the geth).

If I develop the intent, in the grand scheme of things it's not that important.  If the geth develop the intent, that's game over for every human.  The two are not the same.

[mauro2222]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

You also can change the intent and kill somebody, yet you're allowed to live.

Everyone has the power to kill somebody, yet the intent is what matters, so don't contradict yourself by telling me that the intent is not important.

Sure, but the capability to kill a handful of people (me) is not the same as the capability to kill all of humanity (the geth).

If I develop the intent, in the grand scheme of things it's not that important.  If the geth develop the intent, that's game over for every human.  The two are not the same.

It's the same, honey. The magnitude it's insignificant.

If the geth kill us, we cease to exist.
If I (geth) kill you, you (humanity) cease to exist.

Modifié par mauro2222, 20 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[CaptainZaysh]

ecarden wrote...

Unless, of course, we keep bettering ourselves, by, for instance, unifying the galaxy, learning from past mistakes, trading with the Geth and salvaging the Reapers tech (though not, hopefully, anything indoctrinating).

We're not talking about bettering ourselves in the sense of personal development and good deeds.  Left alone, the geth will evolve a higher form of intelligence than us.  If they're smarter than us, they'll be able to destroy us if they choose to do so.  Not acceptable.

[Sisterofshane]

ashdrake1 wrote...

One of the most common complaints with the the conversation I see with the star child is we can't tell him that AI,s and organics can live together peacefully.  It's because we can't. 

Hold on you say.  I just brokered peace with the Geth and the Quarians.  Also me and EDI go way back, I hooked her up with my buddy.  You are way off base here Mr. deus ex god kid thing.  I want to paragon/renegade my first hand knowledge right in your stupid see through face.  Shepard can't do this, because Shepard knows that it's not the case.

Even if you want to use the Geth and Quarians as an example, it has been in effect for like a week tops.  That really isn't any sort of time to get conclusive data.  EDI is cool I guess, now that she is not murdering people on the moon.  She has shown she can be a great teammate, a friend and perhaps even a lover.  Very compelling reason's for a vote for harmony.  It is also a isolated case, one that is ongoing.  EDI is also unique in that she is the first AI you have encountered that you can truly reason with. 

Hold on you say.  The Geth are good guys, Legion is a stand up dude.  True, but this really has very little to do with Shepard.  The current Geth you can get to help you have pretty much always been stand up dudes.  You really have no impact on their outlook.  Long before Shepard came onto the scene they decided they did not want to wipe out the Quarians even though they had the option.  They did not like the Reapers before it became a issue with the rest of galaxy.  Your goals match theirs so they help you.  Shepard did nothing to affect this mindset with them.

Since the first game there has been no example of being able to reason with an AI.  Be it from the AI designed to steal from quasar machines to the reapers.  AI's can not be reasoned with.  Has Shepard has had little to no success in trying to make peace with a hostel AI.  The heretic Geth refuse to even try and engage in any sort of communication.  The  thief AI on the citadel commits suicide and makes the attempt to take Shepard with it.  The reapers don't seem real open to suggestion.  Also the most telling is the rouge AI on the moon, EDI. 

It makes no effort to try and establish a communication, it tries to kill you like everyone else on the base.  The only reason EDI is like she is, is because her software was modified.  We rewired her brain.  EDI is no longer who it was because it was re-written, no peace was made.  It was remade.

As per the lore in the games  the star child is right.  Eventually an AI will wipe everything out.  Because regardless of the lesson of the Geth, Organics keep messing around with AI.  See moon AI, citadel AI, EDI and project overlord.  At some point we will make one that figures out how to self replicate and it will and can wipe the universe clean.

This post is not a defense of the ending.  I have problems with the ending.  Mostly the Joker/Normady bit.  It is what I believe is a flaw in logic in the argument to correct  the ending.

Every argument you have mentioned is just proof in the other
direction.  In this cycle, we have managed to avoid or defeat AI several
times over from being able to obliterate us.  Even Javik talks about in
his cycle, they were WINNING the war against synthetics until the
reapers showed up.

The problem being that "Casper's" logic is CIRCULAR logic.  In order to prove what the starkid says is an ABSOLUTE truth, the premise of an AI destroying ALL organic life would need to have occured.  Apparently it didn't, because we are all still standing here.  So, can you justify the gruesome muder of countless of organic beings to satiate the desire of a godlike figure to "save" us from an inevitable ending that has never occured?

[nevar00]

Well no **** you can't say for sure that organics and synthetics will never fight again... just like you can't say Turians and Humans or Salarians and Asari will never fight either. None of the options at the end of the game change our nature, sythesis or not, and no matter what you can't guarantee there won't be wars in the future. Why limit it to synthetics vs organics?

[CaptainZaysh]

mauro2222 wrote...

It's the samem honey. The magnitude it's insignificant.

If the geth kill us, we cease to exist.
If I (geth) kill you, you (humanity) cease to exist.

Maybe that's the way you see it, but personally I think the death of the species would be worse than my own death.  I believe there are bigger things than whether I live or die.

(PS you don't get to call me honey until I've put my d**k in your mouth.)

[Jayce]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

You also can change the intent and kill somebody, yet you're allowed to live.

Everyone has the power to kill somebody, yet the intent is what matters, so don't contradict yourself by telling me that the intent is not important.

Sure, but the capability to kill a handful of people (me) is not the same as the capability to kill all of humanity (the geth).

If I develop the intent, in the grand scheme of things it's not that important.  If the geth develop the intent, that's game over for every human.  The two are not the same.

Engineer an air transmutable virus that kills all who it infects. Technically any human is capable of such with the correct knowledge.  By your logic, we should exterminate all virologists.

[dragonflight288]

There will be wars in the future. You can't go through a single Asari life-span without a major war breaking out.