169 réponses à ce sujet

[Godeshus]

Pocketgb wrote...

No seriously, why not? If an imbalanced ability can simply be fixed by being ignored, why not just put insta-kill buttons in every game? Based on what you're saying they would be totally fine because we just don't have to use them.

What, prey tell, is the instakill spell that a mage has in Dragon Age?  Again, you are over exaggerating and taking me entirely out of context, but I can do the same. Based on what YOU are saying, a character MUST be overpowered if the possibility exists. Do I really believe that you think this? No, because it is ridiculous.  As ridiculous as making a retarded reference between a powerful mage and an Instakill button.

[Pocketgb]

Jab0r wrote...

Mages have, and always will be, the glass cannon of RPGs. If you can get a tank to draw aggro off them, then they will dominate the battlefield. That's how it's designed to be.
If you get them up-close with a bunch of enemies, or a human pincushion for a group of archers, they will go down.

If they packed an incredible amount of damage with next to no defensive abilities, I could entirely understand that and that's what we call *balance*, folks.

But Mages in DA:O have some quite astounding defensive abilities. Cone of Cold with a side of Forcefield, anyone?

Godeshus wrote...

What, prey tell, is the instakill spell that a mage has in Dragon Age?  Again, you are over exaggerating and taking me entirely out of context, but I can do the same...

Bold is keyword. What, precisely, is being over exaggerated?

I know
entirely that no such thing in Dragon Age exists, that's why it's
called a hypothetical statement. If such a thing did exist in DA:O, and
the lore agreed with it, would it be fine for the game? If not, then
where do we draw the line of when something is too powerful?

If
a player wants an easier time it should be because the player set the
difficulty to "easy". Likewise if a player wants a challenging
experience it should be because he set the difficulty to "nightmare".
If one of those isn't true then the gameplay might be in need of some work.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 30 novembre 2009 - 09:09 .

[Schyzm]

Godeshus wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

 I don't think you're asking for a patch to nerf the mage. I think you're asking for a patch to nerf your obsession with powerbuilds. Anyone who says the mage is Overpowered has an obsession with powerbuilds. The reality, though, is that the mage is only as overpowered as the player makes him. I've said it before in other threads, and I'll repeat it here.

Bioware makes the game.  They are not there to hold your hand while you play it. 

Point is, all choices in game are yours. You're competing against an AI. You find mage overpowered? You have only yourself to blame for this.

"Ok. Let`s see how I can make my mage as powerful as possible..."
"...WTF!!!! MY MAGE IS WAY TOO POWERFUL!!!!"

^ makes no sense to me at all.

there are tons of ways to accidentally break combat by stumbling on a mage spell with absolutely no intention to make a spreadsheet to figure out the absolute best mage possible.  in fact warriors and rogues have both been powergamed much more extensively than mages.  

on top of that, some people like to play games with interesting and deep combat and not "lol I picked up this spell game is broken."

so yah basically your entire post is a steaming pile of fail.

Ok, so you picked a spell that you didn`t know much about, and it is DEVASTATING your enemies, so now you're getting bored.

Who, exactly, is forcing you to use this mage spell that you are talking about?

oh great so now I have to simply stop using things left and right to attempt to not have my game ruined?  hahahahaa.

[Jab0r]

But Mages in DA:O have some quite astounding defensive abilities. Cone of Cold with a side of Forcefield, anyone?

When cone of cold has the same range as an arrow, you might have something there.

But player characters aren't balanced around 1v1 encounters, and you shouldn't expect them to be. A warrior could quite comfortably take down a small group of archers, said group which would completely destroy a mage.

[Schyzm]

Jab0r wrote...

But Mages in DA:O have some quite astounding defensive abilities. Cone of Cold with a side of Forcefield, anyone?

When cone of cold has the same range as an arrow, you might have something there.
But player characters aren't balanced around 1v1 encounters, and you shouldn't expect them to be. A warrior could quite comfortably take down a small group of archers, said group which would completely destroy a mage.

mages kill archers much easier than warriors, who have to run all the way across the screen and wack them down one by one.  I mean seriously, have you played the game?  or are you just saying things that kinda sorta sound right in your own head?

[Godeshus]

Schyzm wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

 I don't think you're asking for a patch to nerf the mage. I think you're asking for a patch to nerf your obsession with powerbuilds. Anyone who says the mage is Overpowered has an obsession with powerbuilds. The reality, though, is that the mage is only as overpowered as the player makes him. I've said it before in other threads, and I'll repeat it here.

Bioware makes the game.  They are not there to hold your hand while you play it. 

Point is, all choices in game are yours. You're competing against an AI. You find mage overpowered? You have only yourself to blame for this.

"Ok. Let`s see how I can make my mage as powerful as possible..."
"...WTF!!!! MY MAGE IS WAY TOO POWERFUL!!!!"

^ makes no sense to me at all.

there are tons of ways to accidentally break combat by stumbling on a mage spell with absolutely no intention to make a spreadsheet to figure out the absolute best mage possible.  in fact warriors and rogues have both been powergamed much more extensively than mages.  

on top of that, some people like to play games with interesting and deep combat and not "lol I picked up this spell game is broken."

so yah basically your entire post is a steaming pile of fail.

Ok, so you picked a spell that you didn`t know much about, and it is DEVASTATING your enemies, so now you're getting bored.

Who, exactly, is forcing you to use this mage spell that you are talking about?

oh great so now I have to simply stop using things left and right to attempt to not have my game ruined?  hahahahaa.

I don't use a combination of spells (trying to avoid spoilers) on the 3 skeletons hanging out in the corner by themselves. I may not even use blizzard on a room full of enemies that is out of my line of sight. I could sneak my rogue in and lay traps, I can send a tank in to absorb damage while peppering the enemies with smaller spells and arrows, I can send in 3 warriors to attack the enemies while my mage supports them with buffs and heals. I can do a number of things. So, yes, if you are complaining that your mage is overpowered, then limit him. You may not have a "ruined" game. Try saving your best tactics for the toughest fights, when nothing else is working.

[Faerell Gustani]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

It's not like there are tons of broken spells. Cone of Cold, Forcefield (AI problem really). What else?

Let's add in Crushing Prison and all 3 of the teir 4 primal spells (the mass AoE ones), specifically blizzard as it freezes as well.

Virulent Walking bomb is a fight ender as well.  Mass Paralyze too.

Then looking at their specializations, Blood Mage and Arcane Warrior by themselves are incredibly powerful.  Taking them both is just broken beyond the best warriors and rogues.

[Pocketgb]

Jab0r wrote...

When cone of cold has the same range as an arrow, you might have something there.

Winter's Grasp, Petrify, Blizzard, Paralyze?

Granted they might not have the range of an arrow - albeit good range - but quite a few of their CC abilities don't require LOS, unlike all of Archery.

[Matthew Young CT]

Cone of Cold isn't a defensive ability.



Mages (other than AW of course) have very few defensive abilities.



There are only a few big problems with mages really. Cone of Cold cooldown is ridiculous, AI interaction with Forcefield is broken, and critters don't have enough mental resistance.

[Jab0r]

mages kill archers much easier than warriors

Have you actually played a single mage against a group of archers?
A group that doesn't conveniently cluster themselves for a fireball?

Winter's Grasp, Petrify, Blizzard, Paralyze?

Blizzard takes too long to cast if aggro is on you (making it only useful for starting off the fight if you can do so from out of range), and the others are single-target.
Again, the game isn't balanced around 1v1. Being able to completely destroy 1 mook with absolutely no risk doesn't make a class broken.

Modifié par Jab0r, 30 novembre 2009 - 09:17 .

[Schyzm]

Jab0r wrote...

mages kill archers much easier than warriors

Have you actually played a single mage against a group of archers?
A group that doesn't conveniently cluster themselves for a fireball?

often I will tell my other 3 party members to just hold position in the back and just wipe everything with my single mage because its faster.  and you can line of sight any group of archers that isn't sufficiently "bunched" for your aoe's.  not to mention fireball has a pretty bigass area they'd need to be separate groups entirely to not hit em all.

like I said, I think you're just saying things you think sound right without actual knowledge of how dragon age works.

[Matthew Young CT]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

It's not like there are tons of broken spells. Cone of Cold, Forcefield (AI problem really). What else?

Let's add in Crushing Prison and all 3 of the teir 4 primal spells (the mass AoE ones), specifically blizzard as it freezes as well.

Virulent Walking bomb is a fight ender as well.  Mass Paralyze too.

Then looking at their specializations, Blood Mage and Arcane Warrior by themselves are incredibly powerful.  Taking them both is just broken beyond the best warriors and rogues.

Crushing prison yeah, that needs to be resisted more or something. I don't agree about the AOE stuff being OP. Someone has to do AOE, just as rogues do incredible 1v1 damage and warriors tank well. Mass Paralyze, again, critters (at least on nightmare) need much more resist. Not nearly enough resisting goes on!

I get the feeling most people here just abuse potions though. They're the really broken thing. Take away infinite mana and things get rather trickier.

AW is overrated as hell. I made one hearing how amazing it was and it just really isn't

[Jab0r]

and you can line of sight any group of archers that isn't sufficiently "bunched" for your aoe's.

When you get all the archers with Ser C. in a single AoE, let me know.

[Lacan2]

Schyzm wrote...

Jab0r wrote...

But Mages in DA:O have some quite astounding defensive abilities. Cone of Cold with a side of Forcefield, anyone?

When cone of cold has the same range as an arrow, you might have something there.
But player characters aren't balanced around 1v1 encounters, and you shouldn't expect them to be. A warrior could quite comfortably take down a small group of archers, said group which would completely destroy a mage.

mages kill archers much easier than warriors, who have to run all the way across the screen and wack them down one by one.  I mean seriously, have you played the game?  or are you just saying things that kinda sorta sound right in your own head?

Yes, they do. Mages kill groups of people better than fighters.

But those same mages also get destroyed vs. archers. I won't spoil, but late in the game there is a time when this single group of arches can kill my mage with one volley. With Alistair's shield ability, he does not die. Rogues with max dex aren't even damaged.

[Godeshus]

 In Oblivion, I COULD choose a Warrior class. I COULD give him no magical skills. Then I COULD buy a destruction spell. I COULD then create a spell that drained fatigue 1 ponit on self. I COULD cast this spell over and over until my destruction got to level 50 or 75. I then COULD enchant a sword that killed every single enemy en****ered in 1-3 hits. I have just broken the warrior class. OR I could completely gimp my Warrior so he gets owned. I've played both ways, and many hues in between.  What I DID NOT do is go the Bethesda forums and tell them their game was unbalanced.

My point is, an RPG is what you make it to be. It's about choices. It's your game, you play it your way.  

Why do I believe that this is a difficult thing for people playing DA to understand? 2nd playthrough.

The magic is in the story, the history and lore, the cinematic moments, the moving dialogs between characters. Disecting and learning the game. Everything is new and wonderful. One simply hasn't had enough when the game is done. The Crack high you get from the first time round can never be achieved again, because nothing is new anymore. The thing is, though, you still strive for it. But you try and do it too fast, because you've lost some patience. So you hit escape constantly throughout dialogs. You don't read Codex entries. You skip past the cinematics. You powerbuild your characters. Then you complain that the game is unbalanced and broken.

Either that, or you're a pirate, and simply can't appreciate what you didn't work for, because this is the 5th game you've downloaded this week, and you're not actually bored with the game, but you're bored with life.

Why do I think this? Because I've been in both scenarios.

[kevinwastaken]

Enough of this "balance" bullsharts, this isn't WoW and there is no reason the classes should be balanced. Mages should be even more powerful in my opinion, since everyone is Ferelden is scared ****less of them.

[Jonfon_ire]

Personally I feel Potions are overpowered, not the mages. Spells are very powerful of course, and they should be. But what makes Mages continuously awesome is the ease they can replenish their Mana (or use Health instead) and keep firing off those awesome spells. Potions could do with having much longer cooldowns and maybe other penalties as well (say like potions in The Witcher, where you have to be careful with them for fear of poisoning yourself...)



There are obviously some oversights in spells as well. The Tanking Forcefield issue is an AI issue really. If a Tank gets Forcefielded the enemies hitting him should be bright enough to say "Hey, this guy is disabled, lets stop trying to hit him and beat up that bloke in a dress over there who keeps quaffing blue potions". Cone of Cold was treated like the other two cone powers, very quickly recharging, without taking into account the freezing it does. It also seems far less resistable than Winters Grasp to me for some reason (I've had plenty of enemies make their saves with Winters Grasp, much fewer with CoC).

[Ieldra]

I don't think mages need to be nerfed. Here we have a game where, for a change, starting mages are actually good for something, and are, also for a change, in many situations as powerful than a warrior, and in some more powerful. Here we have a game which is, for a change, not dominated by the warrior class. And people do what? Complain about it? I don't understand...

As for the power of mage debuffs, I think some battles are next to impossible to win without them. Some are made extremely easy by them. And some battles don't profit very much from them at all. That's how it should be. As for resistance, I noticed many high-level creatures either resist Force Field or come out of it after a few seconds. That lower-level enemies don't is again, as it should be.

Bottom line: as far as I'm concerned, please don't change anything!

BTW: I do agree that potions are very powerful. You can outlast most high-level encounters just by having ****loads of potions in your inventory. I think that the difficulty level should increase the cooldown of potions. But keep things as they are in "normal".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 novembre 2009 - 10:09 .

[Jab0r]

Potions could do with having much longer cooldowns and maybe other penalties as well

Actually, I think the big change that needs to be made is unifying the cooldown timers, so you can't cheese around them by consecutively drinking different strengths.

[Wolfva2]

deathwing200 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...



Oh, I'm sorry.  Was I credible to you before?  Oh ALAS!  I have lost credibility with a complete stranger on an anonymous forum!  I shall throw myself off a bridge, for I can...not...LIVE with such an ignobility on my soul that..that... Deathwing200 finds me lacking credibility!  For we ALL know just how great and wise HE is, we all cater to earn HIS attention!

You're ignorant of game mechanics or simply lack skill to utilize mage properly. No need to nerd rage. Instead, try reading some quality posts and picking up some useful tips on how to survive better with a mage.

Ok, sarcasm aside, yes mages are easy to kill.  Mage starts casting, archer with DISTRACTING SHOT or Pining shot for that matter hits him before the spell is finished casting.  Guess what?  Dead mage.  Or, he gets hit with Crit shot, or Deathblow.  

All of those shots have a long cast time compared to instant CC like paralysis, crushing prison and force field , which are pretty much instant. Also, I never ever got one shotted (even on nightmare). Level 20 mage with ~250 HP with buffs (if the situation calls for it)

My analogy was good for lower leveled mages who use flameburst.

Your problem is using garbage spells.

 

All you did with YOUR analogy was up the level.  So, now instead of being an infrantryman with a flamethrower, your mage is a jetfighter.  So yes, a squad of infrantry on the ground firing at a jet fighter with rifles won't do much.  BUT:  Over there you have an 'archer' with a SAM.  Now how good is that jetfighter.

Archers can't be compared to SAM site vs a Jet. Once again crappy analogy. SAM can one shot a jet. Archer can't one shot a mage. All mage needs is one second to CC the archer, from then it's over.

Bottom line, classes depend on the situation.  A mage on a tower looking down over an open field is terrifying.  A mage in a twisting maze who turns the corner into a bunch of darkspawn?  He's lunch.  

Completely wrong. You're bad if you really think that. Mage in the maze of corners and structures is 20x more scary than one in open field. You can create unavoidable AoE death traps, lob AoE from line of sight without stepping into rooms (while hiding behind line of sight yourself) and control packs with cone of cold better than in open space. Chokepoints are mage's greatest strength, you can hold off any army with a single mage in tight surroundings.

"OH HO!  Someone has a different opinion of me!  He must be ignorrant, for only *I* am smart enough to know all!"  
Yeah yeah, whatever.  You either miss the point entirely, or you are purposely being obtuse for the sole purpose of childish insultive retorts.  I'll skip analogies since you think they're supposed to be taken littorally.  Mages are powerful.  I've said so before, in this thread.  BUT: As I've also said mages have the counter of being easy to kill.  And they are.  Because not ONE of those spells you've described, even the dreaded 'cone of cold' always works 100% of the time.  All it takes is one heavy tank to make a saving throw and a few slashes of a sword later your mage is shish ka bob.  Mages do NOT have as many hitpoints as warriors.  They also do not have as good an armor class.  And although they have spells that increase armor and defense, a mage who concentrates on not being hittable won't have very many offensive spells will he?  By the same token, a mage who concentrates on being a fearsome god of Death Dealing is skimping on personal protection.

Another thing, you keep talking about one on one situations.  But there are very few of those in this game.  For instance, let's take one of the street ambushes in Denerim where you're facing 20+ guardsmen spread out.  How do you think a solo mage will handle that?   Blizzard would work, or sleep, but by the time you get it off you'll have about a half dozen meleers on you.  So, you cast cone of cold, but if you're surrounded you'll only get 2, 3 folks.  What next, paralyse?  Single person, unless you're of such a high level you have an AE paralyse in which case you'd probably be long past this point of the game, but I digress.  Ok, you cast paralyse on the remainder.  Maybe that'll even get the additional meleers who lagged behind the first half dozen.  You still have a bunch of archers to take care of, and they've been shooting you full of holes.  You'll also be running a little low on mana, which sucks because now those guys in the cone of cold are defrosting.  Of course, that is if there isn't any mob who succeeded in saving against your spells and has been hitting you with his sword this whole time.  One mage, by himself, is going to be dead shortly in that scenario.  Which is why we're NOT alone; we have 3 party members who will try and keep people OFF the mage so the mage can do his job of rapid killing.  

[FedericoV]

Register your copy of the game and I will consider your criticism.

Having said that I will just add one thing: mages are overpowered but if you feel that it spoils the fun from your game because of lack of challenge and/or too much micromanagement, play with one mage in your party on hard or nightmare and you will understand that mage might is needed and that gameplay is smoother with just one of them in your party (I've made that experiment and it really has changed my whole perspective on gameplay and such things even if I miss Wynne ). Playing with one mage/one thank/one rogue + an utility fighter/rogue on hard is the best way to enjoy DA:O in my opinion (not tried nightmare).

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 novembre 2009 - 10:13 .

[Pocketgb]

Jab0r wrote...

Blizzard takes too long to cast if aggro
is on you (making it only useful for starting off the fight if you can
do so from out of range), and the others are single-target.
Again,
the game isn't balanced around 1v1. Being able to completely destroy 1
mook with absolutely no risk doesn't make a class broken.

Who says we're basing this 1v1, by the way?

I'm
looking at it from the perspective of a Mage casting Blizzard well out
of aggro range on a huge mob of bad guys. This is another reason why
Mages are really successful in DA: nearly all of the encounters feature a large amount of enemies. More AoE fodder is all they are.

Of course this is evidently less a problem with Mages and more the thought process of there being "strength in numbers". This isn't always the case when you have a huge fireball. I often wondered how things would be if most fights feature fewer but stronger bad guys.

Godeshus wrote...

...What I DID NOT do is go the Bethesda forums and tell them their game was unbalanced.

Then you did nothing to bring to attention the loopholes existing within their game, cheapining the route of actually playing it. Ignoring a problem doesn't solve it.

Case in point? Illusion. It rules. Put the difficulty slider to 100% and you can play through anything. Try the same for a Warrior and you are boned, because nearly everything else scales poorly.

So does this require a nerf to illusion, or a look at how Bethesda should go about actually making their game challenging? Given that everything is balanced based off of the "normal" setting, it would be the latter.

Godeshus wrote...

The magic is in the story, the history and lore, the cinematic moments, the moving dialogs between characters. Disecting and learning the game. Everything is new and wonderful. One simply hasn't had enough when the game is done. The Crack high you get from the first time round can never be achieved again, because nothing is new anymore. The thing is, though, you still strive for it. But you try and do it too fast, because you've lost some patience. So you hit escape constantly throughout dialogs. You don't read Codex entries. You skip past the cinematics. You powerbuild your characters. Then you complain that the game is unbalanced and broken.

We bring to attention the shallowness of the mechanics because it is not in league with the rest of the game.

The story is excellent.
The setting is brilliant.
The characters are fantastic.
The lore deep and satsifying.
The combat straightforward and simple.

That's why we're upset.

We're here because we *do* care about the game. We want to make it better. We want *everything* to be awesome. Is balance really a bad thing?

kevinwastaken wrote...

Enough of this "balance"
bullsharts, this isn't WoW and there is no reason the classes should be
balanced. Mages should be even more powerful in my opinion, since
everyone is Ferelden is scared ****less of them.

This
is essentially what it comes down to: we have people who care about the
lore, and we have people who care about the balance. One is not more
important than the other. Lore is important because there's always
emphasis on the story, balance is important because it's a video game.
When you nail both you have the start of an awesome game, and there's
nothing stopping you, the developer, from having both be hand-in-hand.

If
you sacrifice one over the other, there's going to be people upset, just like what we have now.

Not to mention that there are numerous areas where the lore is pretty rickity. Case in point: back-alley fights being more difficult and challenging than a fricking dragon.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 30 novembre 2009 - 10:16 .

[Godeshus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't think mages need to be nerfed. Here we have a game where, for a change, starting mages are actually good for something, and are, also for a change, in many situations as powerful than a warrior, and in some more powerful. Here we have a game which is, for a change, not dominated by the warrior class. And people do what? Complain about it? I don't understand...

As for the power of mage debuffs, I think some battles are next to impossible to win without them. Some are made extremely easy by them. And some battles don't profit very much from them at all. That's how it should be. As for resistance, I noticed many high-level creatures either resist Force Field or come out of it after a few seconds. That lower-level enemies don't is again, as it should be.

Bottom line: as far as I'm concerned, please don't change anything!

BTW: I do agree that potions are very powerful. You can outlast most high-level encounters just by having ****loads of potions in your inventory. I think that the difficulty level should increase the cooldown of potions. But keep things as they are in "normal".

I entirely agree with this post.  I think the heart of the issue is the differences in difficulty.  I've played on easy, medium and hard, and have not noticed any differences, except for the AoE damage on friendlies..

[Joe Ronimo]

Schyzm wrote...

oh great so now I have to simply stop using things left and right to attempt to not have my game ruined?  hahahahaa.

I won't disagree that balance could be better.

Either way, your options are:
1. Stop using things that ruin the game for you and enjoy the game. (or use them sparingly)
2. Use things that ruin the game for you and dislike the experience.

You can take a horse to water...

[Godeshus]

Pocketgb wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

...What I DID NOT do is go the Bethesda forums and tell them their game was unbalanced.

Then you did nothing to bring to attention the loopholes existing within their game, cheapining the route of actually playing it. Ignoring a problem doesn't solve it.

I really don't think you understand the point of a roll playing game. These weren't loopholes. The Elder Scrolls has been like this since its inception. The player has the option to take on the roll of ANY type of character he wishes. Wanna plow through the game annihilating everything that stands in your way? Go ahead. Want to play a weak thief that can go down in 2 hits...But can run 10 times faster than any swordsman ever could? Go ahead. It's a game of choices.

Dragon Age is, too. You have less freedom, but it's just a different style of game. Why would you WANT Bioware to hold your hand while you play their games. Why would you WANT to be forced into such narrow choices. But more importantly, just because YOU can't control your urges to be as destructive as powerful, why would you want to force these things via patch on me? I can control my builds. I don't need to be THE MOST POWERFUL WIZARD in the world. 

This currently isn't the case, but maybe Crushing Prison tree isn't unbalanced for me at all, because I chose not to play the roll of a Primal wizard. Maybe the Crushing Prison tree is entirely necessary for survival because all my other spells are for supporting my other characters. Maybe I didn't want to spend a single point on fire, earth, ice, or lightning, and I NEED The Crushing Prison tree to disable one or two melee unit that gets past my defensive line.