169 réponses à ce sujet

[WillieStyle]

One consistent theme I've found when investigating balance issues is that the developers seem to have no clue how valuable attack speed is in their own game.



Take Precise striking for example. It boosts attack bonus and crit chance at the expense of attack speed. But the attack speed penalty is so severe that it's a dps LOSS unless you can't hit the enemy at all without PS.



Same thing holds with 2H weapon speed. If you calculate the expected dps from 2H and 1H weapons based on damage/attribute modifiers and attack speed, 1H weapons win hands down. It's like the developers never bothered to do the arithmetic.



Things just get worse when you factor in: weapon enchants, runes and poisons. Because these aren't normalized to attack speed, they make fast hitting weapons even more valuable.



The only upside to this blind spot is that they probably didn't realize how powerful momentum+auto-attack would be. Were it not for that over site, there wouldn't be a single spec/class in the game that had comparable single-target dps to a mage

[F-C]

throttlesays wrote...
Because the developers made no mistakes whatsoever in designing this game's combat aspect, and everything they do is divinely correct and infallible. Experiments that result in evidence to the contrary should be met with outright insults for their insolence in disagreeing. How intelligent.

because some baddies who post on the forums know more about the game than the people who spent years making it and 9+ months balancing it.

how intelligent indeed.

[WillieStyle]

F-C wrote...

throttlesays wrote...
Because the developers made no mistakes whatsoever in designing this game's combat aspect, and everything they do is divinely correct and infallible. Experiments that result in evidence to the contrary should be met with outright insults for their insolence in disagreeing. How intelligent.

because some baddies who post on the forums know more about the game than the people who spent years making it and 9+ months balancing it.

how intelligent indeed.

Actually, if you look at any remotely popular game, you'll find that the "community" quickly outstrips the developers when it comes to build knowledge.  Why? It's a simple matter of manpower.  Min/maxers have put in combined hundreds of thousands of man-hours into testing this game. FAR FAR more than the developers could have.  So the dex bug that made it live was found within hours by the community.  Things like rapid-aim not stacking with rapid-shot/master-archer were found by the community whereas the lead developer still claims on the missing manual site that archer speed boosts stack up to 200%.

I mean you had a developer come on here and say tanks should stack magic so they get healed for more by healing spells and that warrior shouldn't ignore dex at the expense of strength because it will cause them to miss more often.  The developers are FAR from infallible.  

[Sibelius1]

Is no one discussing the OP's second point about graphical optimisation?

Have the devs commented on that?

[Sibelius1]

Double ******* post!

Modifié par Sibelius1, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:33 .

[throttlesays]

F-C wrote...

because some baddies who post on the forums know more about the game than the people who spent years making it and 9+ months balancing it.

how intelligent indeed.

You don't have the mental capacity to conduct an intelligent discussion. You are consistently wrong and constantly displaying a lack of basic argumentative skills and reasoning. You can continue to be wrong and make a fool of yourself, or you can step out of this losing battle. You're not the bastion of knowledge and virtue that your mom brought you up to think you were.

[dissonance-zaon]

What I'm wondering about people complaining about Mages being OP is:



Does the game become impossible to beat by choosing a Warrior or Rogue? If the answer is "no" then I see little meaning to the argument. You say you can miss the only two recruitable mages? I believe those of you who managed to do that are exactly the reason they made potions as spammable as they are, no?

Or is it a matter of pride and refusing to lower the difficulty to easy? Why is that same logic not being applied to refusing to use powers that lower the difficulty?

The fun factor? What is stopping you from playing what you find fun? If a 2H Warrior has crappier DPS than a DW Warrior, but is perfectly capable of beating the game; Who exactly is putting the limit on you?

Maybe it has something to do with someone like Morrigan being more powerful than your PC? I suppose if you look at it that way it is kind of irking.



I dunno. It all just seems so pedantic. Complaining about how powerful a Mage is but ignoring the fact that a lot of that power is not even necessary to complete the game.

[Titanmike357]

I have played every class, in terms of what class is OP, a properly built DW rogue will win every time, As this is not a PvP game and you only fight A.I a rogue is the single most powerful class in the game.



My rogue can absolutely chew through any mob, white/orange/red doesn't matter, dualist + momentum then below the belt ( and tactic where stunned = back stab ) makes for a dead mob, add in th second stun skill.



Even on a white mob with auto attacks I can kill faster than sten and shale and morrgain, why?



Two full sized weapons, main hand has 3 runes, off hand has 2 runes, plus poison, plus bleed, thats 7 damage sources in two swings, not even including the AOE damage I can do with 2 weapon sweep and whirlwind.



if any class needs looked it, its a 2hander warrior, the only other spec that warrior has is sub par, and ends up more of a support DPS, I can't tell you how many times I have managed to kill a one mob, then turn around and finish a second stealing the kill from sten, or killing 2-3 at once with WW and DWS.



Yes warriors have two weapon path, but a rogue does it better with back stabs, they can wear the same armor, use the same skills but rouges get extra DPS from Bs, and stuns galore.



Where a warrior shines is in the S&S path, combine with some + resists to magic and templar/champ and the juggernaut's armor and you could walk though a blizzard bash the melee in the face and deny the mages any more spells, then knock them all down with the camps war crys.



All the while buffing your party, de-buffing the enemy's and CC a single mob all you want.



Mages are one trick pony's, and while they are powerful, they in no way can compete with a rogue for Damage and survival skills

[F-C]

throttlesays wrote...
You don't have the mental capacity to conduct an intelligent discussion. You are consistently wrong and constantly displaying a lack of basic argumentative skills and reasoning. You can continue to be wrong and make a fool of yourself, or you can step out of this losing battle. You're not the bastion of knowledge and virtue that your mom brought you up to think you were.

you call this type of post an intelligent discussion?

go go troll boy.


:patiently waits for the next 'intelligent post' that contains a 'your mom' joke:

Modifié par F-C, 30 novembre 2009 - 03:04 .

[Godeshus]

throttlesays wrote...

List the facts please. Or is anything that you don't understand a "factual impossibility"?

The game mechanics and the warrior abilities do not make it possible. It should be blatantly obvious why. Unless there's some obscure bug or exploitable mechanic that can consistently be used to overcome such encounters as the 8-shrieks-on-a-bridge or high dragons, you can't solo tank-and-spank through the game in nightmare. Certain fights could be soloed, but not the whole game. I don't know what kind of crazy imagination would make anyone think otherwise, but if you must have scientific proof, you could either try it yourself or look for believable reports of anyone having done it (hint: there aren't any).

Tanslation: I don't understand, so it's a factual impossibility. Do you not know what a fact is?

Hint: Me trying warrior solo on nightmare and failing does not make it a factual impossibility. Nor is it scientific evidence. Perhaps you don't know what science is either?

Modifié par Godeshus, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:51 .

[SheffSteel]

Inarai wrote...

1: THIS IS A ... GAME. ...BALANCE IS ... RELEVANT.

Simplified your post somewhat.

[FlatCat]

WillieStyle wrote...

Actually, if you look at any remotely popular game, you'll find that the "community" quickly outstrips the developers when it comes to build knowledge.  Why? It's a simple matter of manpower.  Min/maxers have put in combined hundreds of thousands of man-hours into testing this game. FAR FAR more than the developers could have.  So the dex bug that made it live was found within hours by the community.  Things like rapid-aim not stacking with rapid-shot/master-archer were found by the community whereas the lead developer still claims on the missing manual site that archer speed boosts stack up to 200%.

I mean you had a developer come on here and say tanks should stack magic so they get healed for more by healing spells and that warrior shouldn't ignore dex at the expense of strength because it will cause them to miss more often.  The developers are FAR from infallible.  

Seriously there's no point in having a game community if all they do is cheerlead.  I remember on the old forums I asked about the bug affecting crossbows and no one including one of the devs believed me until I posted a screenshot even though confirming it themselves would have been instantaneous as they were very obviously not working as intended.  Apparently at the offices no cared about archery enough to make sure all the weapons were matching up with their stat bonuses.  But the community as a whole will care due to sheer virtue of numbers someone out there will like crossbows enough to equip one for at least one second.

[Roxlimn]

I don't get why 8 Shrieks on a bridge should be a problem. War Cry - grenade spam - potion spam should make it more than doable.

[aymanhaq]

Ive read just about every posts on this thread so far.

First off the overwhelming majority of ppl on this thread are trolls who are only interested insulting people who disagree with them because this is a forum and they cant be punched in face for their imbecilic remarks. I'm sorry to use profane language, but literally: **** off. There aint no space for people like you. As a general opinion most (most does not equal all) ppl agree that certain mage spells (CoC and FF being the most popular) combined with the defense that mages have DO tend to make mages rather strong. Debate is whether they need to be nerfed or not. I still think they do. Thing is mages are really good at just about everything. A balanced mage would have the same relative quantities of strengths and weaknesses as the other two classes. And balance remains important even in a one player game. It does not make sense to have two weaker classes and one strong. Why have them then? Replay value is added with balance. Alot of ppl have to crank up the difficulty when playing mage. Thats ridiculous IMO. One should be able to the same challenge/fun out of each class, albeit in a different way due to different abilities.



As far as the limited graphics options. I read a post where someone didnt know what they do etc. Well some of us know exactly what they do and would appreciate the customization. That person did mention that i could use the ATI CCC to change options. I'd like to thank that person i didnt think of that as a solution. I'll see if it works or not. Mainly id just like to turn off shadows.



Also we need more intelligent posts on the AI issue and limited graphics customization. Mages OP isnt the only thing this thread is about.

[Titanmike357]

aymanhaq wrote...

Ive read just about every posts on this thread so far.
First off the overwhelming majority of ppl on this thread are trolls who are only interested insulting people who disagree with them because this is a forum and they cant be punched in face for their imbecilic remarks. I'm sorry to use profane language, but literally: **** off. There aint no space for people like you. As a general opinion most (most does not equal all) ppl agree that certain mage spells (CoC and FF being the most popular) combined with the defense that mages have DO tend to make mages rather strong. Debate is whether they need to be nerfed or not. I still think they do. Thing is mages are really good at just about everything. A balanced mage would have the same relative quantities of strengths and weaknesses as the other two classes. And balance remains important even in a one player game. It does not make sense to have two weaker classes and one strong. Why have them then? Replay value is added with balance. Alot of ppl have to crank up the difficulty when playing mage. Thats ridiculous IMO. One should be able to the same challenge/fun out of each class, albeit in a different way due to different abilities.

As far as the limited graphics options. I read a post where someone didnt know what they do etc. Well some of us know exactly what they do and would appreciate the customization. That person did mention that i could use the ATI CCC to change options. I'd like to thank that person i didnt think of that as a solution. I'll see if it works or not. Mainly id just like to turn off shadows.

Also we need more intelligent posts on the AI issue and limited graphics customization. Mages OP isnt the only thing this thread is about.

that was me, you can tell the CCC to override the settings of the game, regardless of what the game wants to do, you can force higher or lowe AA and so on.
I don't know if shadows are a option in the CCC but you could look.

I think personally that a well built DW combat rogue is on the same level as a mage in terms of damage and life span in a mob, maybe a longer life to boot.

Archers be they rogues or warriors are not really damage dealers, more of a support class but AOS is a great skill.

If any class gets a nurf/buff then warriors need to be right up there in first, I personaly think that warriors have only one great line where as mages and rogues has many.

S&S is the best a warrior has to offer, Dual weild is done, and done better by a rogues simply because of backstab and stuns.

Rouges get archery as well, and the same skills as warriors, so once again the warrior is left in the cold simply because of the stealth crits that rogues get, the one special area that a warrior has that no other class has is two hand weapons, and its really lacking.
Two hand weapons skills/talents are lacking.

Mages might have a edge on other classes if buit to tank, but heavy armor  ( AW )really damapens there mana pool causing them to chuge 2X as many pots, or take BM at 14 ( or 7 ) simply because of the A.I lack of the I.

If anything I would rather see the warriors two hander tree buffed/fixed before the mages get looked at.

[Haexpane]

Enough of this narcissistic complaint fest. Everyone thinks they can blog their way to a personalized DAO game.



Try some user mods while we wait for a patch. We already know that stamina is broken and mages are uber. WE KNOW ALREADY WE PLAYED THE GAME TOO!

[FedericoV]

aymanhaq wrote...

Ive read just about every posts on this thread so far.
First off the overwhelming majority of ppl on this thread are trolls who are only interested insulting people who disagree with them because this is a forum and they cant be punched in face for their imbecilic remarks. I'm sorry to use profane language, but literally: **** off.

Speaking of trolls... before judging others, register your game. 

[Catlana]

My two cents regarding balance. A well built DW rogue does as much damage as a mage. Warriors can take significantly more punishment than either of those two classes. Thus, warriors should do less damage than rogues / mages. Still, archery on rogues is pretty weak and needs improvement.

[Roxlimn]

Graphics customization is overrated. Most people who play games just want to crank everything to high and not have issues. Others just like presets. The number of people (as shown in this thread) who actually understand and care to tweak specific graphical settings is very low. This is why many games today have presets rather than specific graphic settings.

[AsheraII]

Catlana wrote...

Still, archery on rogues is pretty weak and needs improvement.

Archery is the branch that's basically meant to combine with the bard skills. What you end up with is support to make the rest of the party stronger, which works especially well in a bard/ranged + melee + melee + healer set up, or even bard + 3 melee and no healer.

And no, the game is definitely not meant to be played without a party, it's possible, but it's not meant to. So "but, but, mages can solo nightmare way easier than a warrior" is a moot point.