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[Urzon]

Emzamination wrote...

There was never any reign to begin with, Cailan was king and ruling monarch, Anora ruled in the shadows but  was little more than a princess consort in actual power and with cailan dead, the throne was up for grabs hence the civil war.

Peace doesn't come without sacrifice

Women have equal rights in Thedas (or at least Ferelden). While Cailan might have been from the royal bloodline, Anora had just as much power as he did after they entered into their marriage. So, she was anything but a princess consort, and since Cailan left no true heirs; Anora was able to retain the throne after his death. 

The only reason there was a civil war was because Loghain declared himself regent without the Landsmeet approval. The nobles saw the power grab, and that was why some of the lords rebelled and caused the civil war.

Modifié par Urzon, 26 avril 2012 - 07:13 .

[Emzamination]

Urzon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

There was never any reign to begin with, Cailan was king and ruling monarch, Anora ruled in the shadows but  was little more than a princess consort in actual power and with cailan dead, the throne was up for grabs hence the civil war.

Peace doesn't come without sacrifice

Women have equal rights in Thedas (or at least Ferelden). While Cailan might have been from the royal bloodline, Anora had just as much power as he did after they entered into their marriage. So, she was anything but a princess consort, and since Cailan left no true heirs; Anora was able to retain the throne after his death. 

The only reason there was a civil war was because Loghain declared himself regent without the Landsmeet approval. The nobles saw the power grab, and that was why some of the lords rebelled and caused the civil war.

Equality has nothing to do with it.Anora tells you in a conversation before you head to the lands meet that cailan was the Ruler of ferelden and she ruled in his shadow for the past 5 years which is why she wants alister to step aside and let her rule completely.Also take note that she has to be coronated just like alistair before she can take the throne. why? because she didn't have it to begin with.

[Urazz]

haroldhardluck wrote...

For me the perfect ending is for Alistair and Anora to marry and I got that ending once. However I just played DAO again to get that ending with a male character. Despite all I could do, I never got Alistair to agree to let Loghain live which is the requirement for this ending. I thought that 100 like and max Coercion and the hardening of Alistair was what it took but apparently not. I went rhrough all the dialogue options with no luck either.

Does anyone know what has to be done?

BTW going back to DAO after playing DA2 was interesting. For me DA2 was the more emotional of the two games. There was not much family interaction in DAO and almost all of it happen in the origins preamble. In DA2 family interaction happens throughout the game. And there is nothing like the dilemna of Anders in DAO. In terms of story telling, DA2 is much better. DAO had the better role playing character mechanics. DAO was the longer game. Maybe a little too long as I deliberately skipped many side quests as I knew I could get the levels I needed for the end game without them and I did not have the interest to do them this time.

Harold

You can easily get Alistair and Anora to marry.  Just have your Warden peform the killing blow instead of Alistair.  Anora won't marry her father's killer so just remember that little piece of information when you plan on having Anora marry someone, I.E. your male cousland warden or Alistair.

Or are you wanting to have Loghain recruited as well.  The big thing is that you need to harden Alistair and convince them to marry before the landsmeet.

Finally, for the best ending with Anora and Alistair married, you want Alistair hardened.  When he is hardened, he takes ruling more seriously and the two become beloved monarchs.

[Urzon]

Emzamination wrote...

Equality has nothing to do with it.Anora tells you in a conversation before you head to the lands meet that cailan was the Ruler of ferelden and she ruled in his shadow for the past 5 years which is why she wants alister to step aside and let her rule completely.Also take note that she has to be coronated just like alistair before she can take the throne. why? because she didn't have it to begin with.

Of course she ruled from the shadows. If she was the one making all the ruling decisions openly, it would make Cailan look more of a joke than he already was. Maric was a hero to the people of Ferelden. After he disappeared, it was up to Cailan to take the reigns of the country and lead them. Which he failed at, badly. So Anora had to spend 5 years truely running the country, all the while covering up Cailan's mistakes and making him look good.

Whenever there is a change of leadership in a country, that leader always has to be coronated. Even if, by right, they have the throne already. Maric had to be cornated, even thought he was the true king of Ferelden during the Orlaisian occupation. Cailan had to be corrnated even though he was Maric's only heir. If you choose to let Anora to rule only, she get coronated because the Landsmeet recognizes her right to the throne.

Plus, a coronation is only a ceremony used to mark a new ruler.

[Emzamination]

Urzon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Equality has nothing to do with it.Anora tells you in a conversation before you head to the lands meet that cailan was the Ruler of ferelden and she ruled in his shadow for the past 5 years which is why she wants alister to step aside and let her rule completely.Also take note that she has to be coronated just like alistair before she can take the throne. why? because she didn't have it to begin with.

Of course she ruled from the shadows. If she was the one making all the ruling decisions openly, it would make Cailan look more of a joke than he already was. Maric was a hero to the people of Ferelden. After he disappeared, it was up to Cailan to take the reigns of the country and lead them. Which he failed at, badly. So Anora had to spend 5 years truely running the country, all the while covering up Cailan's mistakes and making him look good.

Whenever there is a change of leadership in a country, that leader always has to be coronated. Even if, by right, they have the throne already. Maric had to be cornated, even thought he was the true king of Ferelden during the Orlaisian occupation. Cailan had to be corrnated even though he was Maric's only heir. If you choose to let Anora to rule only, she get coronated because the Landsmeet recognizes her right to the throne.

Plus, a coronation is only a ceremony used to mark a new ruler.

Being Cailan's wife does not make her the automatic successor to the throne by right like it would his heirs or blood relatives.That is certainly not how royalty works, especially in ferelden politics where the banns and arls must acknowlege you as their new liege.The coronation signifies one's right to rule and acceptance by his/her vassals, without these things you have no power or throne.Maric was coronated because he was king by right but did not have a throne due to orlai's puppets.Cailan was coronated  so he could be recognised as the new king after his father's death.

[Joolazoo]

Urzon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Equality has nothing to do with it.Anora tells you in a conversation before you head to the lands meet that cailan was the Ruler of ferelden and she ruled in his shadow for the past 5 years which is why she wants alister to step aside and let her rule completely.Also take note that she has to be coronated just like alistair before she can take the throne. why? because she didn't have it to begin with.

Of course she ruled from the shadows. If she was the one making all the ruling decisions openly, it would make Cailan look more of a joke than he already was. Maric was a hero to the people of Ferelden. After he disappeared, it was up to Cailan to take the reigns of the country and lead them. Which he failed at, badly. So Anora had to spend 5 years truely running the country, all the while covering up Cailan's mistakes and making him look good.

Whenever there is a change of leadership in a country, that leader always has to be coronated. Even if, by right, they have the throne already. Maric had to be cornated, even thought he was the true king of Ferelden during the Orlaisian occupation. Cailan had to be corrnated even though he was Maric's only heir. If you choose to let Anora to rule only, she get coronated because the Landsmeet recognizes her right to the throne.

Plus, a coronation is only a ceremony used to mark a new ruler.

You are over stating how bad of a ruler Cailain would have been...and how was cailan a joke? He may not have been the smartest man, but from everything in the game he seemed to be well respected and loved by his men. There are more ways to be a good ruler than to sit in your throne room and plan ways to backstab everyone possible in order to get political power. Anora is clearly a fickle backstabbing vashedan **** if you see all of the things she does. Even if she is good at ruling, having someone who that low of moral standards won't have things go well in the long run. Not to mention I wouldn't want her in office regardless of whether or not her immoral actions helped or hindered the country....just like I still would hate loghain if he did save the country by killing king cailain.

Modifié par Joolazoo, 27 avril 2012 - 02:06 .

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Joolazoo wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Equality has nothing to do with it.Anora tells you in a conversation before you head to the lands meet that cailan was the Ruler of ferelden and she ruled in his shadow for the past 5 years which is why she wants alister to step aside and let her rule completely.Also take note that she has to be coronated just like alistair before she can take the throne. why? because she didn't have it to begin with.

Of course she ruled from the shadows. If she was the one making all the ruling decisions openly, it would make Cailan look more of a joke than he already was. Maric was a hero to the people of Ferelden. After he disappeared, it was up to Cailan to take the reigns of the country and lead them. Which he failed at, badly. So Anora had to spend 5 years truely running the country, all the while covering up Cailan's mistakes and making him look good.

Whenever there is a change of leadership in a country, that leader always has to be coronated. Even if, by right, they have the throne already. Maric had to be cornated, even thought he was the true king of Ferelden during the Orlaisian occupation. Cailan had to be corrnated even though he was Maric's only heir. If you choose to let Anora to rule only, she get coronated because the Landsmeet recognizes her right to the throne.

Plus, a coronation is only a ceremony used to mark a new ruler.

You are over stating how bad of a ruler Cailain would have been...and how was cailan a joke? He may not have been the smartest man, but from everything in the game he seemed to be well respected and loved by his men. There are more ways to be a good ruler than to sit in your throne room and plan ways to backstab everyone possible in order to get political power. Anora is clearly a fickle backstabbing vashedan **** if you see all of the things she does. Even if she is good at ruling, having someone who that low of moral standards won't have things go well in the long run. Not to mention I wouldn't want her in office regardless of whether or not her immoral actions helped or hindered the country....just like I still would hate loghain if he did save the country by killing king cailain.

Agreed, but I read the books so I adore Loghain. Sucks I had to kill him.

[Urzon]

Joolazoo wrote...

You are over stating how bad of a ruler Cailain would have been...and how was cailan a joke? He may not have been the smartest man, but from everything in the game he seemed to be well respected and loved by his men. There are more ways to be a good ruler than to sit in your throne room and plan ways to backstab everyone possible in order to get political power. Anora is clearly a fickle backstabbing vashedan **** if you see all of the things she does. Even if she is good at ruling, having someone who that low of moral standards won't have things go well in the long run. Not to mention I wouldn't want her in office regardless of whether or not her immoral actions helped or hindered the country....just like I still would hate loghain if he did save the country by killing king cailain.

First, i'll ask a simple question.

Without the help of either Anora, Loghain, or Eamon, do you think that Cailain would be able to successfully rule alone? And if so, would he be as much as a well respected or loved king as he was before?

As for why he was a joke. For one, he had Anora doing all the ruling in the first place. He can't be a good ruler if he isn't the one actually doing any ruling. Second, him planning the marriage to the Empress. That would have gotten him killed. Period. If Loghain didn't kill him in the first place, the lords and nobles would have done the job. They would have seen that as a betrayal of his father, for him to jump back into the arms of the country that oppressed them. He would have died either by sword during a civil war or the assassin's dagger/poison.

Cailan might have been loved and respected by his men, but that doesn't automatically make him a good king. A good king looks out for his people's best interests, and he trys to make them happy. Them getting the people's respect and love is secondary, and hopefully comes in time.

Would his people respect him if they knew their beloved king let his wife do all the ruling?

Would they love him if they knew he was marrying the country back into the Orlaisian Empire? The same country they fought a blood war to break apart from?

No, they would not.

[hussey 92]

Anora will not marry whoever kills Loghain.

[Lillian Sword-Maiden]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I have a question.

Is it possible to spare Loghain, get Alistair and Anora to marry, and still remain lovers with Alistair? I've never spared Loghain so I don't know if he'll talk with you after the Landsmeet or not, which is where you decide where your relationship is headed.

[Xeyska]

Lillyhime wrote...

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I have a question.

Is it possible to spare Loghain, get Alistair and Anora to marry, and still remain lovers with Alistair? I've never spared Loghain so I don't know if he'll talk with you after the Landsmeet or not, which is where you decide where your relationship is headed.

Yep, my Warden did. You will need Master Coercion and a decent amount of Cunning (+40).

Don't talk to Alistair about the marriage to Anora, during the Landsmeet have your Warden duel Loghain and spare him. Pick this dialogue option: "I was hoping you and Anora will marry," or something along those lines.

[Lillian Sword-Maiden]

Ohh thanks! I'm gonna try that on the playthrough I'm planning on doing soon!

[Silfren]

Xeyska wrote...

Lillyhime wrote...

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I have a question.

Is it possible to spare Loghain, get Alistair and Anora to marry, and still remain lovers with Alistair? I've never spared Loghain so I don't know if he'll talk with you after the Landsmeet or not, which is where you decide where your relationship is headed.

Yep, my Warden did. You will need Master Coercion and a decent amount of Cunning (+40).

Don't talk to Alistair about the marriage to Anora, during the Landsmeet have your Warden duel Loghain and spare him. Pick this dialogue option: "I was hoping you and Anora will marry," or something along those lines.

You didn't address the bit about staying lovers, though?  Does that still happen?

[Silfren]

Urzon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Equality has nothing to do with it.Anora tells you in a conversation before you head to the lands meet that cailan was the Ruler of ferelden and she ruled in his shadow for the past 5 years which is why she wants alister to step aside and let her rule completely.Also take note that she has to be coronated just like alistair before she can take the throne. why? because she didn't have it to begin with.

Of course she ruled from the shadows. If she was the one making all the ruling decisions openly, it would make Cailan look more of a joke than he already was. Maric was a hero to the people of Ferelden. After he disappeared, it was up to Cailan to take the reigns of the country and lead them. Which he failed at, badly. So Anora had to spend 5 years truely running the country, all the while covering up Cailan's mistakes and making him look good.

Whenever there is a change of leadership in a country, that leader always has to be coronated. Even if, by right, they have the throne already. Maric had to be cornated, even thought he was the true king of Ferelden during the Orlaisian occupation. Cailan had to be corrnated even though he was Maric's only heir. If you choose to let Anora to rule only, she get coronated because the Landsmeet recognizes her right to the throne.

Plus, a coronation is only a ceremony used to mark a new ruler.

Anora WAS openly ruling the kingdom.  It's stated several times within Origins that both the nobility and the general populace were aware that Anora was doing most of the actual work rather than Cailan.  I also recall that there's a mention somewhere that Cailan was fine with the arrangement.  

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Silfren wrote...

Xeyska wrote...

Lillyhime wrote...

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I have a question.

Is it possible to spare Loghain, get Alistair and Anora to marry, and still remain lovers with Alistair? I've never spared Loghain so I don't know if he'll talk with you after the Landsmeet or not, which is where you decide where your relationship is headed.

Yep, my Warden did. You will need Master Coercion and a decent amount of Cunning (+40).

Don't talk to Alistair about the marriage to Anora, during the Landsmeet have your Warden duel Loghain and spare him. Pick this dialogue option: "I was hoping you and Anora will marry," or something along those lines.

You didn't address the bit about staying lovers, though?  Does that still happen?

No. Alistair hates you for sparing Loghain...that is the reason I offed him. Alistair will leave you and your party. He will marry Anora...but want nothing to do with you.

[Emzamination]

Silfren wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Equality has nothing to do with it.Anora tells you in a conversation before you head to the lands meet that cailan was the Ruler of ferelden and she ruled in his shadow for the past 5 years which is why she wants alister to step aside and let her rule completely.Also take note that she has to be coronated just like alistair before she can take the throne. why? because she didn't have it to begin with.

Of course she ruled from the shadows. If she was the one making all the ruling decisions openly, it would make Cailan look more of a joke than he already was. Maric was a hero to the people of Ferelden. After he disappeared, it was up to Cailan to take the reigns of the country and lead them. Which he failed at, badly. So Anora had to spend 5 years truely running the country, all the while covering up Cailan's mistakes and making him look good.

Whenever there is a change of leadership in a country, that leader always has to be coronated. Even if, by right, they have the throne already. Maric had to be cornated, even thought he was the true king of Ferelden during the Orlaisian occupation. Cailan had to be corrnated even though he was Maric's only heir. If you choose to let Anora to rule only, she get coronated because the Landsmeet recognizes her right to the throne.

Plus, a coronation is only a ceremony used to mark a new ruler.

Anora WAS openly ruling the kingdom.  It's stated several times within Origins that both the nobility and the general populace were aware that Anora was doing most of the actual work rather than Cailan.  I also recall that there's a mention somewhere that Cailan was fine with the arrangement.  

She was not openly ruling the kingdom nor does she state such.

I think the statement your looking for is when she says Cailan no more wanted the responsibility of governing than she...something along the lines of sitting in the background, I'll have to do another playthrough to get an exact quote.

[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Equality has nothing to do with it.Anora tells you in a conversation before you head to the lands meet that cailan was the Ruler of ferelden and she ruled in his shadow for the past 5 years which is why she wants alister to step aside and let her rule completely.Also take note that she has to be coronated just like alistair before she can take the throne. why? because she didn't have it to begin with.

Of course she ruled from the shadows. If she was the one making all the ruling decisions openly, it would make Cailan look more of a joke than he already was. Maric was a hero to the people of Ferelden. After he disappeared, it was up to Cailan to take the reigns of the country and lead them. Which he failed at, badly. So Anora had to spend 5 years truely running the country, all the while covering up Cailan's mistakes and making him look good.

Whenever there is a change of leadership in a country, that leader always has to be coronated. Even if, by right, they have the throne already. Maric had to be cornated, even thought he was the true king of Ferelden during the Orlaisian occupation. Cailan had to be corrnated even though he was Maric's only heir. If you choose to let Anora to rule only, she get coronated because the Landsmeet recognizes her right to the throne.

Plus, a coronation is only a ceremony used to mark a new ruler.

Anora WAS openly ruling the kingdom.  It's stated several times within Origins that both the nobility and the general populace were aware that Anora was doing most of the actual work rather than Cailan.  I also recall that there's a mention somewhere that Cailan was fine with the arrangement.  

She was not openly ruling the kingdom nor does she state such.

I think the statement your looking for is when she says Cailan no more wanted the responsibility of governing than she...something along the lines of sitting in the background, I'll have to do another playthrough to get an exact quote.

When the nobles know it, and comment on it, and the people at large talk about it, I think it's pretty clear that Anora was openly ruling the kingdom.  Also, she says to Eamon, "who do you think has really been ruling this country  for five years."  She wouldn't have said that if it were a secret.

[Emzamination]

Silfren wrote...

When the nobles know it, and comment on it, and the people at large talk about it, I think it's pretty clear that Anora was openly ruling the kingdom.  Also, she says to Eamon, "who do you think has really been ruling this country  for five years."  She wouldn't have said that if it were a secret.

Whispering in cailans ear and advising him on what laws he should pass and how he should handles matters of court is complete different from sitting on the throne pubicly making decrees.

The statement to eamon contradicts your statement, if she wouldn't have had to question the arl on who really ruled the kingdom if she was openly in charge, clearly cailan was the one pubicly in charge.If the warden trys to get Anora and Alistair to marry, one of the terms she states is Alistair will stand back and let her handle all matters of governing because she could not do so with cailan.

[Urazz]

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

When the nobles know it, and comment on it, and the people at large talk about it, I think it's pretty clear that Anora was openly ruling the kingdom.  Also, she says to Eamon, "who do you think has really been ruling this country  for five years."  She wouldn't have said that if it were a secret.

Whispering in cailans ear and advising him on what laws he should pass and how he should handles matters of court is complete different from sitting on the throne pubicly making decrees.

The statement to eamon contradicts your statement, if she wouldn't have had to question the arl on who really ruled the kingdom if she was openly in charge, clearly cailan was the one pubicly in charge.If the warden trys to get Anora and Alistair to marry, one of the terms she states is Alistair will stand back and let her handle all matters of governing because she could not do so with cailan.

If Alistair is hardened then it seems like Alistair and Anora rule together.

I personally think they make a good match if Alistair is hardened because they each have something the other lacks and try to actually work together in ruling.

[Lamepro]

In one of the playthroughs I had a relationship with Alistair It end like what most people would say.

[Emzamination]

Urazz wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

When the nobles know it, and comment on it, and the people at large talk about it, I think it's pretty clear that Anora was openly ruling the kingdom.  Also, she says to Eamon, "who do you think has really been ruling this country  for five years."  She wouldn't have said that if it were a secret.

Whispering in cailans ear and advising him on what laws he should pass and how he should handles matters of court is complete different from sitting on the throne pubicly making decrees.

The statement to eamon contradicts your statement, if she wouldn't have had to question the arl on who really ruled the kingdom if she was openly in charge, clearly cailan was the one pubicly in charge.If the warden trys to get Anora and Alistair to marry, one of the terms she states is Alistair will stand back and let her handle all matters of governing because she could not do so with cailan.

If Alistair is hardened then it seems like Alistair and Anora rule together.

I personally think they make a good match if Alistair is hardened because they each have something the other lacks and try to actually work together in ruling.

The only reason that dynasty works is because a hardened Alistair actually has some brass.I remember hardened alistair even threatened to execute anora if he rules alone or with a warden queen.

[Silfren]

[quote]Emzamination wrote...

[quote]Urazz wrote...

[quote]Emzamination wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...

When the nobles know it, and comment on it, and the people at large talk about it, I think it's pretty clear that Anora was openly ruling the kingdom.  Also, she says to Eamon, "who do you think has really been ruling this country  for five years."  She wouldn't have said that if it were a secret.

[/quote]

Whispering in cailans ear and advising him on what laws he should pass and how he should handles matters of court is complete different from sitting on the throne pubicly making decrees.

The statement to eamon contradicts your statement, if she wouldn't have had to question the arl on who really ruled the kingdom if she was openly in charge, clearly cailan was the one pubicly in charge.If the warden trys to get Anora and Alistair to marry, one of the terms she states is Alistair will stand back and let her handle all matters of governing because she could not do so with cailan.
[/quote]

I don't see it as a contradiction.  We know that Cailan was much like his father and we have lore that strongly suggests he wasn't shy or secretive about letting Anora do the ruling.  When Anora makes her statement to Eamon, her scoffing tone strongly suggests that she figures Eamon should have already known that Cailan was not the one doing the work.  And, again, the lore strongly hints that the nobility and general population already saw Anora as the "true" ruler during Cailan's reign. 

It may not have ever been "official" but that's a far cry from being a buried secret and Anora merely "whispering" in Cailan's ear.  

I think Anora was happy to finally dispense with the fact that even though she was the one doing the work, and everyone knew it, that she was doing it in an unofficial capacity.  She embraced the possibility of being able to forego the pretense, since prior to Cailan's death she was legally and officially only the queen-consort.  But I don't think any of that means that her practice of ruling in Cailan's stead was ever a secret that she and Cailan failed at keeping--because if they were actually trying to keep it a secret, they sucked at it, because clearly the people knew the reality.   I think she was just ready to be able to be queen on her own terms rather than keeping up a pretense that everyone knew was just an illusion.

[Emzamination]

Silfren wrote...

I don't see it as a contradiction.  We know that Cailan was much like his father and we have lore that strongly suggests he wasn't shy or secretive about letting Anora do the ruling.  When Anora makes her statement to Eamon, her scoffing tone strongly suggests that she figures Eamon should have already known that Cailan was not the one doing the work.  And, again, the lore strongly hints that the nobility and general population already saw Anora as the "true" ruler during Cailan's reign. 

It may not have ever been "official" but that's a far cry from being a buried secret and Anora merely "whispering" in Cailan's ear.  

I think Anora was happy to finally dispense with the fact that even though she was the one doing the work, and everyone knew it, that she was doing it in an unofficial capacity.  She embraced the possibility of being able to forego the pretense, since prior to Cailan's death she was legally and officially only the queen-consort.  But I don't think any of that means that her practice of ruling in Cailan's stead was ever a secret that she and Cailan failed at keeping--because if they were actually trying to keep it a secret, they sucked at it, because clearly the people knew the reality.   I think she was just ready to be able to be queen on her own terms rather than keeping up a pretense that everyone knew was just an illusion.

Well as long as we agree it was in an Unofficial Capacity <_<