257 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyinElk212]

Vaktathi wrote...
Would it help smooth things over? Yes. 

Should we apologize in that case? Not really, our actions were rational based on the information at the time and the onus of unethical business behavior would be on Bioware at that point. 

I'd much rather they just copped to having had a collective brainfart (at least at the upper levels of the design team) and fixed it. 

"Unethical business behavior" is entirely subjective, particularly when there are a few (like myself) who can see the brilliance in storytelling innovation at the expense of an indeterminable amount of fans.

Bioware has an opportunity to look like a martyr, an entity who's intent was solely to break new boundaries in videogame storytelling while still providing the satisfying ending fans deserved. If that attempt at innovation provoked the ire of some fans, so be it, but in the end they provided them the content they wanted.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 20 mars 2012 - 05:34 .

[Qutayba]

Xerkysz wrote...
To everyone who keeps complaining about this.

Look at world of Warcraft, and their "DLC" (Patches) 
They sell you the game without the ending, yet you keep playing it?

Love one company for it, hate the other.
Make up your mind!

If the ending had simply been open-ended, that would have been great.  But they weren't (except for a slender possibility of an indoctrination ending).  They were bleak, not bittersweet.

And, come on, Blizzard creates some vivid characters and has some reasonably good storylines, but they're not even trying to be in BioWare's league when it comes to storytelling.  It's a completely different kind of experience.

[FyreSyder]

You know that's a really big 'IF'.

[Jason O. Jensen]

If this indoctrination theory is true and they have been planning it all along I cannot help but stand back in awe of Bioware. It would be amazingly impressive to create such a stir, sure possibly a bit of a marketing/hype trick but also something that really drives home for the players how much they care about the game and the characters in it. A trick like this could only be pulled once, but the ending of the ME trilogy would be the one game that could do it.

Naturally I would expect the DLC to be free in that case.

There are a lot of things which fit in to support this theory, many of which ar pointed out clearly in this video

A few points not raised by the video:
(1) that the game constantly checks for DLC when you start it up suggests that they really would want you notified as soon as ending DLC came out.

(2) that the VI shuts down due to security procedures on thessia when met with an indoctrinated presence, but when on the illusive man's base spills the beans because the security measures have been disabled (in theory allowing for Shepard to be more indoctrinated after the defeat on thessia)

(3) multiplayer: in theory also functions as a device that keeps players coming back to the game at least until the ending DLC is released.

(4) Casey Hudson stalling to let more people finish the game before they release the real ending.

(5) Origin lets them know exactly how many people have finished the game and the rate at which new poeple are finishing it. Expect them to release the ending when this rate declines.

I'm increasingly convinced that they have been planning this indoctrination thing all along: why else would shepard draw breath on earth after the citadel blows up with him in it? If they have they will make video-game history, and not in a bad way.

edit: added points 4 and 5.

Modifié par Jason O. Jensen, 20 mars 2012 - 05:39 .

[Xerkysz]

Artking3 wrote...

Bad example. 

Mmorpgs have no real ending anyway.

They definitely have one, and it's getting to the stage of Blizzard not wanting to lose the money they are making hence Mists of Pandurpia.

Not really a bad example, I mean, you don't know what the Devs have in plan, anyone here is just jumping to conclusions because they didn't understand it then raging like a drunk Canadian Lumberjack.

It's rediculous.

[FlyinElk212]

Qutayba wrote...
I think we already owe them a collective apology for some of the over-the-top tactics some people have employed to put pressure on BioWare - particularly the attempts at personal harassment: it's repulsive. But I would not apologize personally, since all I've done is critique, donate, and stand firm in my request for an ending. I stand by every word of my critique.

Those particular individuals would absolutely need to apologize for the lack of tact they presented, which so many of the other protestors have presented. 

The apology would not stem from this feeling of "attacking Bioware" as these people who need to apologize would. Instead the apology from the fans would stem from a lack of faith in Bioware to provide us with what we truly wanted.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 20 mars 2012 - 05:42 .

[Xerkysz]

Jason O. Jensen wrote...

I'm increasingly convinced that they have been planning this indoctrination thing all along: why else would shepard draw breath on earth after the citadel blows up with him in it? If they have they will make video-game history, and not in a bad way.

They did plan for it...


An app that was released with production details:
The ending is a mess because the following was cut out (as late as Nov '11):
- Reapers indoctrinating and assuming control of Shepard during this
speech/battle

This was removed because even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices).

And they say they have no intention on changing the endings, that doesn't mean they have no intention of continuing it.

[Qutayba]

FlyinElk212 wrote...
"Unethical business behavior" is entirely subjective, particularly when there are a few (like myself) who can see the brilliance in storytelling innovation at the expense of an indeterminable amount of fans.

No, I think it's borderline unethical, and it's certainly reckless, from a business perspective.  I would admit, it's "clever," and I would probably gripe at a lower decible level if it turned out to be a good ending.

Sure, it's not the killing-babies kind of unethical, but it would signal a callous disregard for fans' feelings.  Not only would they have deliberately made people angry/hurt with the first ending, but then they would make people feel stupid and humiliated for falling for it.  It would be a practical joke that had gotten out of hand.

[mattynutz]

I don't think that this ending debacle is some sort of brilliant planned troll. I think that it is pretentiousness and maybe laziness and maybe even gormless profiteering that backfired. If BW were to do an unveil and shout "gotcha!" it would be the same as if you hid in the attic for a week while your parents called the police and had a search and rescue mission sent out to find you. The prank went too far and you were supposed to run down the stairs shouting "I'm here! I'm here!" by the time the cops showed up. At this point, it would be malicious and short sighted. So, no, apologies are not warranted in either case. At most a very cautious "OK... we'll see how you do next time" is what they should get. Even if they completely redeem themselves, doubtful, I for one will never buy a BW product on release day again. This was too much of a let down for me to shell out $70 for.

[FlyinElk212]

Qutayba wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...
"Unethical business behavior" is entirely subjective, particularly when there are a few (like myself) who can see the brilliance in storytelling innovation at the expense of an indeterminable amount of fans.

No, I think it's borderline unethical, and it's certainly reckless, from a business perspective.  I would admit, it's "clever," and I would probably gripe at a lower decible level if it turned out to be a good ending.

Sure, it's not the killing-babies kind of unethical, but it would signal a callous disregard for fans' feelings.  Not only would they have deliberately made people angry/hurt with the first ending, but then they would make people feel stupid and humiliated for falling for it.  It would be a practical joke that had gotten out of hand.

The question for Bioware would then be, "Did the ends justify the means? Were our "secret, actual endings" good enough to outweigh the deception we put our fans through?"

Bioware might've believed that fan loyalty and love for the series would outweigh the deception, particularly if they provided the proper closure that the fans were looking for. An apology on Bioware's part for the deception would go a long way too.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 20 mars 2012 - 03:17 .

[Intomydimension]

 what if the end comes bioware and puummm on the table, DLC free for all with the true ending, confirming the theory, and the final boss included, with an epilogue by the decisions of different colors at the end, with real consequence, and effective use of the war assets ..
and bioware makes a statement in troller plan: everyone fell into our trap, you were indoctrinated! ..
BUAAAAAAH mental straws .. 
seriously, you know how many people would eat owned, people crying with happiness, people kneeling before bioware and casey hudson, people desperate to return to get your copy of Mass Effect 3, some funny characters here you would be ashamed to reach such exaggeration of sue bioware.
a fitting end to remember.
while if you take out the final DLC to cost 10 to 15 dollars, just happy people but there will be people upset and lost fans, all at the cost of money
believe bioware / EA would open the heart, watching everything that have done their fans ask for a better or true (+ 60k for childs)? xD
statements by twitter? saying that if we knew what they are doing, do not we ever leave our copies ever, why? why they think we want or we will not part of our copies, for a DLC that costs 

[FlyinElk212]

Thanks for all the responses guys. For now I gotta go to bed, but I'll take a look at the responses I missed and address them tomorrow morning.

[Tregon]

FlyinElk212 wrote...


Yes. Because in the end I got the product I wanted, and made a big fuss over nothing, while the car dealer was simply trying something unconventional to try and give us more.

Car dealer would deserve swift kick and reminder that they can give paintjobs and other stuff even if they first gave fully functional car.

Hell, other dealerships are doing so! (Witcher 2 for example)

[MrFob]

Right now, this theory is nothing but a fancy dream of us fans.
If it were true and if the "real ending dlc" were for free, I absolutely agree with the OP. I'd love BW for that one.

And you could not compare it to a car dealer, it's not a car, it's a story we are talking about.

But again, it's a fancy dream right now and us player grasping at straws, that's all there is atm. Until we hear otherwise, we must hold the line!

[Total Biscuit]

I'd want them to apologise regardless of whether they fix their substandard product or not.

Oh, you meant US apologise to THEM?

**** no.

[rebo_tfc]

If they did it means they released an unfinished game. What players who cannot get DLC, say if they are in the military and in a remote posting.

[Aetius5]

Asking for an apology is reaching. Sometimes I think Bioware hates us and loves our money.

[ScriptDiver]

The indoc theory is fans grasping at straws. BW planned and made this ending that we have. Occam's Razor, everything else is someone trolling.

However, you can bet they are planning something now because this "issue" makes all other DLC content they planned redundant and a no-sell. Whether or not they own up and say they remade the ending, or they say they had planned it all along doesn't really matter at this point. And no, that warrants no apologies.

[FlyinElk212]

Tregon wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...
Yes. Because in the end I got the product I wanted, and made a big fuss over nothing, while the car dealer was simply trying something unconventional to try and give us more.

Car dealer would deserve swift kick and reminder that they can give paintjobs and other stuff even if they first gave fully functional car.

Hell, other dealerships are doing so! (Witcher 2 for example)

Truth, I admit the car dealership analogy isn't the best...though that analogy was made by another user, and I'm simply trying to respond to it. There are a lot better analogies throughout this thread.

Total Biscuit wrote...
I'd want them to apologise regardless of whether they fix their substandard product or not.

Oh, you meant US apologise to THEM?

**** no.

I see a lot of attitudes like this, and I gotta ask, if they still ended up giving you the product you wanted, and it came to your attention that they planned to give you this product all along, would you really be offended by their unconventional means to do so?

Or would you apologize for overreacting?

The theory isn't just a matter of deception or business tactics. It's also a matter of Bioware attempting to transcend typical videogame storytelling norms for our satisfaction--their attempt to give us a really freaking memorable ending. What entitles us to not apologize to them for overreacting when, through this method, they planned to give us what we wanted all along?

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 20 mars 2012 - 03:26 .

[Etereoooo]

So if they planned to sell an incomplete game and than make you pay for the ending we have to apologize?

[Smiley556]

So I bought the game. Sat down for it and played through it hoping to enjoy a fitting conclusion to the story. Instead got slapped in the face by credits on a cliffhanger and have had to wait for agonising weeks (so far) for a response from Bioware. I do believe the indoctrination explenation, but only cos its the most logical one an best explains the scenes I viewed on my screen. That still means Bioware shipped me a game without an ending and has been agonising me ever since I finished it. Theres not allot that can fix that.

[Tamcia]

Except they won't.

[thebigbad1013]

If BioWare had this planned all along then I'll be more than happy to stand up and apologize because then it goes from being terrible and horrible to being goddamn awesome!

[GBGriffin]

Etereoooo wrote...

So if they planned to sell an incomplete game and than make you pay for the ending we have to apologize?

Basically, this. Why would I apologize to them for spending $80 on an incomplete game?

I'm done, though. Indoctrination has truly reached a religious following. It is the only explanation that works for people and, despite evidence to the contrary, people refuse to give up on it because it makes sense to them...despite no official confirmation, support, or backing from BioWare. Hell, if anything, what they've given us inidcates it was considered at one point, but it was ultimately scrapped.

It's a fan theory, one that fans created and came to believe in. It provides hope through the promise of post-game DLC. If it helps you make sense of this so you can sleep better, then good for you. I'd only ask that you consider the possibility they rushed the product and just messed up.

[leapingmonkeys]

Not at all. If they planned on releasing a DLC with the real ending Bioware should have done the following:

1) Let us know that ME3, as released, was incomplete
2) Let us know that a DLC with the real ending was coming

The reason for #1 is that most people would probably not have pre-bought ME3 if they knew that the ending was not included. This would constitute fraud on Bioware's part. They do not deserve an apology for defrauding us.

In terms of #2, Bioware has actually made statements to date specifically *denying* that there would be any more single player DLC, denying that there will be any other ending provided. If they then go back and say "Ha ha! Fooled ya! Here is the real ending which we always had planned on doing", they most certainly do not deserve an apology.