306 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You appear to say that we should be able to win conventionally. I do not agree. I think that there are, indeed, evils impossible to defeat by the power of unity and heroic determination alone, in this case, the Reapers. While I agree that there should be a fourth option, it's not because of this. My issue with the starchild is not that we must, in the end, make one of the three decisions, but that we must make it on a premise that makes no sense.

I have to say I'm surprised to hear you say this. While inevitability can at the core of the idea of the Reapers it doesn't necessarily have to be. The games so far have had us banking on it not being the case- and not only hoping that it isn't the case but seeming to subtly suggest it as well. Each victory we've gotten over Sovereign, over the Collectors, over Harbinger in Arrival has not only proven that we can hurt and kill them (what's that line from Iron Man 2 about making a god bleed?) but has also worked on demystifying the Reapers themselves, from incomprehensible Mecha-Cthulus into a deadly but very concievable race of advanced machines that use biomatter of entire species to help reproduce. Notice that this revealed them and brought them down a notch without ruining them. I believe their purpose should remain unknown and at the end of ME2 this was still so (simple continuity is insufficient purpose for a machine).
We've proved we can hurt them. We've proved we can kill them and we've certainly proved we can stop them. There is nothing inherently invincible about them. It's just a matter of scale and quantities. So why shouldn't we win conventionally?
Yes sometimes there is unconquerable evil but this isn't a story with that elment in it. And even if you were to insist on inevitability there is a way to make it compatible with the "hope" theme via another Ilos. Maybe the Reapers take this cycle as well. But we stash away more this time. And the next races will get an even bigger advantage. Whether they win or not is outside the scope of our story. But our themes are maintained.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 10 avril 2012 - 01:16 .

[ArenCordial]

Well said CrutchCricket.

The Reapers while amazingly powerful and advanced all ways relied on using the Citadel to close the Relay, effectively isolating pockets of the galaxy against one another. The Reapers always needed to effectively destroy the galaxy's infrastructure, and cut the galactic civilizations off from reinforcing themselves. The Reapers haven't ever faced a united galaxy.

Though the numbers are against the galactic races, the Reapers consider themselves the pinnacle of evolution, they are infact capping their own evolution as they try to make other races fit their mold and refusing to accept the possbility of a higher form of life. For what we can tell aside from adding numbers with new harvests Reaper tech doesn't seem to have changed considering the Reaper corpse in ME2.

The Reapers are something of a static race. That's their disadvantage.

[marshkoala]

I wish that Mr. Hudson and Mr. Walters could read this and then explain to me why their ending is better......

[Sainta117]

marshkoala wrote...

I wish that Mr. Hudson and Mr. Walters could read this and then explain to me why their ending is better......

Well, they *could.* But they probably *won't.* Better men than I have tried to get them to defend or even address those problems, and failed.

[Noelemahc]

Oh, wow. Why did I not see this thread before? Brilliant OP, great job pointing out the thematic elements, I really enjoyed reading that. Thank you so much!

I'm afraid, however, that all of this is evidently going over BioWare's heads - we're still getting no reply whatsoever from the up-and-ups that aren't in PR Speak or hidden behind the PR people. I'm not even sure they're "listening" as they claim, as the wording of both the press-release and blog announcements of the EC DLC reads as "well, you silly silly kids, you did not understand the greatness of our ending, let us explain in more detail". Condescending and patronizing and most certainly un-plot-hole-fixing-friendly.

[Sainta117]

Noelemahc wrote...

Oh, wow. Why did I not see this thread before? Brilliant OP, great job pointing out the thematic elements, I really enjoyed reading that. Thank you so much!

I'm afraid, however, that all of this is evidently going over BioWare's heads - we're still getting no reply whatsoever from the up-and-ups that aren't in PR Speak or hidden behind the PR people. I'm not even sure they're "listening" as they claim, as the wording of both the press-release and blog announcements of the EC DLC reads as "well, you silly silly kids, you did not understand the greatness of our ending, let us explain in more detail". Condescending and patronizing and most certainly un-plot-hole-fixing-friendly.

I suspect the broader problem isn't that it's going over their heads, nor that they (or at least some of "them") don't get that the ending is poorly written, but that they can't (for political reasons) publicly accept the premise without provoking internal backlash from important people. Mac Walters and Casey Hudson appear to the be the two people most responsible for the ending, and are also the two most senior people on the project. Essentially, several very senior employees would have to fall on their swords and resign if Bioware was to publicly retcon their work, bad as it may be. When people's jobs are on the line, all bets are off in terms of their willingness to show personal integrity. Additionally, changing the endings would have the external effects of 1) alienating those few fans who *did* like the ending and 2) exposing Bioware to additional public scorn.

I actually suspect a lot of the dev team would agree with us (note the thunderous silence on the endings from rank-and-file Bioware types), but management has to "stand by their men" no matter how badly they screwed the pooch, and the rank and file won't sound off if management tells them not to, as they like being employed.

[kal_reegar]

bravo!

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

ArenCordial wrote...

Well said CrutchCricket.

The Reapers while amazingly powerful and advanced all ways relied on using the Citadel to close the Relay, effectively isolating pockets of the galaxy against one another. The Reapers always needed to effectively destroy the galaxy's infrastructure, and cut the galactic civilizations off from reinforcing themselves. The Reapers haven't ever faced a united galaxy.

Though the numbers are against the galactic races, the Reapers consider themselves the pinnacle of evolution, they are infact capping their own evolution as they try to make other races fit their mold and refusing to accept the possbility of a higher form of life. For what we can tell aside from adding numbers with new harvests Reaper tech doesn't seem to have changed considering the Reaper corpse in ME2.

The Reapers are something of a static race. That's their disadvantage.

Yeah and I assumed that would come into play and that is why I wrote it into my ending.

[indyracing]

Sainta117 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

Oh, wow. Why did I not see this thread before? Brilliant OP, great job pointing out the thematic elements, I really enjoyed reading that. Thank you so much!

I'm afraid, however, that all of this is evidently going over BioWare's heads - we're still getting no reply whatsoever from the up-and-ups that aren't in PR Speak or hidden behind the PR people. I'm not even sure they're "listening" as they claim, as the wording of both the press-release and blog announcements of the EC DLC reads as "well, you silly silly kids, you did not understand the greatness of our ending, let us explain in more detail". Condescending and patronizing and most certainly un-plot-hole-fixing-friendly.

I suspect the broader problem isn't that it's going over their heads, nor that they (or at least some of "them") don't get that the ending is poorly written, but that they can't (for political reasons) publicly accept the premise without provoking internal backlash from important people. Mac Walters and Casey Hudson appear to the be the two people most responsible for the ending, and are also the two most senior people on the project. Essentially, several very senior employees would have to fall on their swords and resign if Bioware was to publicly retcon their work, bad as it may be. When people's jobs are on the line, all bets are off in terms of their willingness to show personal integrity. Additionally, changing the endings would have the external effects of 1) alienating those few fans who *did* like the ending and 2) exposing Bioware to additional public scorn.

I actually suspect a lot of the dev team would agree with us (note the thunderous silence on the endings from rank-and-file Bioware types), but management has to "stand by their men" no matter how badly they screwed the pooch, and the rank and file won't sound off if management tells them not to, as they like being employed.

Loved the original post, and this one as well.  This is sadly how the real world works, with regards to employment and the like.

And it does seem that Walters and Hudson are the key people responsible.  I hope no one ever forgets that.  I also wonder if anyone inside Bioware had any ability whatsoever to simply tell them "no".  I'm sure someone had that authority, but then I wonder if those people knew what was going to be published.

If they did, they are as much, if not more, responsible for the awfulness of the ending of the trilogy.  I can understand someone "stuck in a story" not seeing it from the outside.  That can happen.  But someone from the outside (not outside the company, but outside the circle of people quickly going down some Kubrik/Matrix 3-esque sh*thole) NEEDS to step up and and say "no way that's getting published, that's f**cking terrible."

No one at Bioware appears to have done this, and that's why the ending of ME 3 has caused me to lose any faith I had in Bioware, not just Hudson and Walters (the outright lies from pre-launch interviews don't help, either).

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Yeah lies never help anything.

[bstrothe]

Well said Sainta117. I felt the same on my paragon playthrough. Even a suicide mission against an advanced race that killed me I managed to brig everyone home safe and sound without shaking hands with the devil. I wish Bioware would take note of this for their ending DLC to fix this mess.

[Sainta117]

bstrothe wrote...

Well said Sainta117. I felt the same on my paragon playthrough. Even a suicide mission against an advanced race that killed me I managed to brig everyone home safe and sound without shaking hands with the devil. I wish Bioware would take note of this for their ending DLC to fix this mess.

I think that's a great and succinct way of making the point. I wrote all this stuff, but you guys keep getting the gist of it in a sentence or two. I think I've spent too long in academia. Anyway, as for the DLC, one can always hope.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Bioware please read the OP.

[sammysoso]

Wow! Great stuff OP

[RinuCZ]

I had troubles to express what's the twisted something behind it all. You hit the nail on the head, Sainta117 . It was an epic story which I wanted to point out to a daugher someday and say "See this is what a true heroine is". Now it's just a story about how everyone has to get hands dirty at some point no matter how strongly they had fought against it. And I accepted it.

Modifié par RinuCZ, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:09 .

[Mad-Hamlet]

Because all the apologetics are making me nauseous.

[Liamv2]

Why revive this thread

[DeinonSlayer]

Damn it, will people stop resurrecting pre-EC complaint threads?

[SwordofMercy1]

Thanks OP! You took the words right out of my head and expressed them beautifully.

[Kel Riever]

NECROTHREAD

OP's thoughts still apply, even post EC. Still, we have many threads like this already on the main page....

[BD Manchild]

No matter how relevant the points raised in the OP may still be, this habit of necrothreads that's surfaced on here is officially beyond a joke.

[CronoDragoon]

If you agree that strongly with the OP, make a new thread yourself instead of dredging up 11 month old posts.

[Atekimagus]

Brilliant thread. Haven't discovered it until now, do not mind it's necroed. Still every bit as valid post-EC.

Very well said, OP.

Modifié par Atekimagus, 20 février 2013 - 04:08 .

[ruggly]

holy necro batman