306 réponses à ce sujet

[schneeland]

Well put, Sir.

[Raynulf]

I'm currently following the ME3 ending discussion for two reasons:

1) I personally believe storytelling is important, and Mass Effect (in particular #1) is a superb example of this. Sadly, the ending (for whatever reason it was released as it is) undoes so much of the creative effort Bioware put into the series.

I would like to see the epic they created conclude the themes and in the narrative style it has built upon for the last five years. And I would pay for that. I would not pay for further products which conclude in the style of ME3.

And the message that, no, the customers are not happy with what was delivered is an important one, and not something that should just 'blow over' when the difference between the hype and the reality is this vast.

2) Honestly, a lot of the discussion is interesting in and of itself, and rather educational. Ironically, with Mass Effect as the central topic, it puts a lot of the literary theory and philosophy into perspective and generally makes it a lot easier to take in.

(I can't really contribute on the narrative on such a level, as my expertise lies elsewhere. And... while I could go on at length about why the Synthesis option is flat-out the most rediculous thing I've heard from a practicality's sake, or the actual physical impact of the entire ending animation... I think we are all well and truly aware it's just Space Magic)

[Sainta117]

AntonioA9011 wrote...

Good post! It was everything I attempted to say, but couldn't find the right words (or enough time) to make a thread about it. I especially like your detailed view on Mass Effect 2, which I think had the deepest story in the series that most people don't understand.

I felt closer to the squad on Mass Effect 2, only because the conversations were...I don't know...more personal. Shepard was their Commanding Officer after all, and had to get to know his/her crew. Not only that, but Mass Effect 2 fleshed out his/her leadership abilities far more than the rest of the series. Each character on ME2 reasserts their priorties during the course of the Suicide Mission. Their behavior tweaks, their outlooks on life get less bleak, and they are stronger people afterward. Prior to meeting Shepard, they were a hopeless band of renegades, outcasts, and misfits. After the Suicide Mission, they are triumphant heroes.

I really felt betrayed as the ending played on my Samsung "42 televison. My mouth gaped in awe, not because of it's sheer brilliance, but because I felt the throngs of sedition, like someone I trusted had just spit in my face. All of that work, five years and more than three hundred hours (and money), down the drain for a half-baked, tacked on ending that felt more like a BAD ending, rather than a poignant, fufilling end to a once beloved series.

I feel ya. I still recall sitting there feeling hollow and confused and desperately worried about what happened to my digital buddies!

Thanks to everyone for the responses; I'm really happy to hear that others shared my sentiments.

Modifié par Sainta117, 26 mars 2012 - 02:54 .

[Talogrungi]

Sainta117 wrote...

Wow, holy wall of text, batman. Maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all...

Wouldn't worry about walls of text on this forum.

We're RPG fans; we like to read.

[Petrikles]

This is a wonderful read, thank you. I hope Bioware COs read this.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Well said OP.

It's my opinion that the top echelon of Bioware is responsible for the ending we have. They tried to get cute. Tried to do something radical and different. Then were so pleased with themselves they forgot to ask anyone else in the company what they thought and wha-la you have the stupidest ending ever made.

I find it very hard to believe the same writers that penned the rest of the trilogy penned the endings. They just don't match in any way shape or form.

[Petrikles]

You might also say that it is Bioware´s ARTISTIC responsibility to put things right, in the sense the OP expressed.

[Sainta117]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

(snip)

I find it very hard to believe the same writers that penned the rest of the trilogy penned the endings. They just don't match in any way shape or form.

I believe that only two of the original writers remain - Walters and Weekes. The others, including lead writer Drew Karpyshyn left at various points along the way. Karpyshyn left in February, which might or might not be relevant. So it's not entirely inaccurate to say that the team was different - from my perspective, I guess the question is whether the new team was simply poor at their craft, were under too much time pressure, or got too big for their boots (or any of a dozen other possible explanations).

[Tallestra]

Forcing Shepard to accept the inevitable, essentialy forcing her on her knees is my main problem with the ending. Not the plot holes, not lack of logic, not sacrifice, not lack of happy ending. But betrayal of everthing she and me with her believed during our journey all these years.
I still can't believe that BW would do something like this to their creation, nevermind us, players.

[marshkoala]

@Sainta117 WOW! Don't worry about anything you wrote, it was exactly how I felt as well.
Most of us have tried to point out logically why the ending didn't work(plot holes etc)but you hit the nail on the head.......

Hope that we(Commander Shepards) will win!

Faith that all(allies etc) Commander Shepards have united will make a difference!

Thank you for all your time and effort, I would love to e-mail this to Bioware!

[Edje Edgar]

This is my main gripe with it aswell. Shephard did not go out a hero.

Problem with these well thought out threads is that they're too hard to disagree with no matter how big your fanboyism. And there's only so many people bothering to concur to keep a thread topped. Every intelligent review of the ending therefor automaticly falls off after having recieved 1/10th of the views the thread named 'endings were fine, only morons hate it, enter trollface'.

Modifié par Edje Edgar, 26 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[marshkoala]

Because more need to read this well written post.

[TheBishop_82]

I agree.

[InsaneAzrael]

When I first chose my ending I went with synthesis. Honestly I assumed that in doing so there would be some form of clarification as to what happened. I thought there would be some really clear message laid out afterward. Heck, even Deus Ex Human Revolution gave the player a mini-treatise on the choice made. But no, I got a non-sensical pseudo-profound ending.

Then I recalled why the ending smacked of familiarity with Saren. So I chose destroy.
The whole point of genocide/sub-serviance/Meglomania was not in my mind at the time.

It is a good observation OP.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Sainta117 wrote...

Note: I may have gone a little over the top here. It's been a long day, and I'm a little punchy at the moment. Regardless, here goes. I started to write this for a blog on games at the university where I teach, but I thought it might mean more to people here.

Why Stories Matter
Stories are important. Great storytellers throughout history, from Tolkien and Lewis back through the mists of time to Homer and the nameless authors of "Gilgamesh" and the "Tain Bo Cuailnge" have inspired people with tales of love, and sacrifice, and the strivings of heroes against the nihilistic forces of evil. These ideas transcend time and space, and are no less valid in a 21st century global society than they were in 10th century Europe, or Jerusalem in the year AD 32, or the rocky islands of Greece six centuries before. We all love modern epics, even as we cynically pretend they don't mean anything. We laugh at people who memorize dialog from "The Lord of the Rings," or drop lines from "Star Wars," but deep down, we know that there is value and truth in these stories, and we feel the tug of their ideals and lessons at the very core of our being. As the movie was in the 20th century the medium of the epic, so now is the video game becoming the torchbearer of epic stories. They move and inspire us, even as we pretend they're just expressions of commercial greed, or momentary entertainments to fill time. We may laugh, or smirk, but in the end we're all changed, uplifted, *improved* by a good story, whether we care to admit it or not.

To me, the worst part of the endings isn't the terrible plot holes, the uncharacteristically passive Shepard, or even the complete lack of closure provided by the final scenes. It was the utter betrayal of the most central and hopeful themes that ran through all of the other mass effect games.

The Beginning
In ME1, humanity stands at the end of a rocky childhood on the center of the galactic stage, prepared to take that first, breathless step into galactic prominence. Commander Shepard is the first human Spectre, the first sign that the older, more established peoples of the galaxy are prepared to admit humanity to a seat at the tables of power. And standing in opposition to him, and to humanity as a whole, is a ghost of the bitter past, a turian who hates humans, who is trapped in the old bitter rivalry of the first contact war, and who, it turns out, is ultimately the voice of submission, appeasement, and resignation in the face of the demands of the most profound embodiment of evil imaginable.

In order to defeat Saren, Shepard must assemble a team of all different races and attitudes. A sullen, bitter, jaded Krogan warlord, a brash, impatient Turian cop, a brilliant, nerdy asari scientist, and a buoyant, perky, but terribly fragile Quarian teenager. Add to these the two faces of humanity, Kaiden, with his "aliens are jerks and saints, just like us" inclusiveness, and Ashley, who mistrusts all aliens on principle and is more like Saren than is strictly comfortable (a fact you can call her out on, incidentally). Everyone's contributions and abilities are needed to succeed in this epic struggle, and under Shepard's guidance these individuals all pull together, even in the face of fearsome challenge and terrible sacrifice, to triumph over an ancient, nihilistic evil. They must all put aside their differences to unite as one so that they can come to embody hope even in the darkest of hours, to stand together in the face of doubt and conspiracy and never, ever give up until they win through to inspiring victory.

The central lesson of Mass Effect 1 is that Kaiden, whether he lives or dies, is right. The aliens of ME *are* just like us, more similar than not, and that when we all work together we can not only accomplish the impossible, but we can also find ourselves in the unexpected position of becoming emotionally attached to people who have mandibles and exoskeletons, or squids on their heads, or who consider a headbutt a normal part of conversation (no Scottish jokes, please). To me, one of the finest moments in my ME 1 playthrough was watching Liara and Shepard's relationship blossom as they come to the realization that love and understanding can cross even the barriers between worlds and species effortlessly (incidentally, the fact that this scene drove the talking heads on Fox News absolutely nuts just made it clear to me how clear the theme of embracing "otherness" was here - since there's clearly nothing Rupert Murdoch hates more than diversity, compassion, and inclusiveness).

Sprinkled in among these main themes are others, equally laudable - redemption, sacrifice, compassion, and mercy, but it is *hope* that runs like a bright thread all through the tapestry of the game.

The Middle
ME 2 is a bit darker in tone, but still repeats the same themes. Once again, Shepard is challenged to face off against the stark existential evil of the reapers, but is also challenged to confront the more insidious (and maybe necessary) evil of Cerberus. Once again, Shepard, whether paragon or renegade, is presented with the opportunity to unite a disparate band of aliens and humans, and once again is faced with some of humanity's darker elements. The arrogance of ethnic supremecists, the despair of mental illness, the emotional weight of things done or left undone in the past. All of these themes are explored, if not always perfectly, then at least with sensitivity and hope. The most tangible sign of this is that in the end, if Shepard puts the needs of others above his or her own, if he or she goes the extra mile to engage with others and embody the principle that trouble shared is trouble halved, then even the most impossible suicide mission can be accomplished without undue sacrifice or loss. All the more subtle themes make their reappearance here, as well as a few new ones, but ultimately, underlying them all is the insidiously beautiful notion that if we reach out a hand (or talon) to those who are different than us, even to those who have been our enemies, that we can achieve greatness, unity, and victory, even against impossible odds.

The End?
Throughout the vast majority of Mass Effect 3, we see these values reinforced and amplified once again. Bringing the Krogan, Salarians, and Turians together while righting old wrongs and paving the way for reconcilliation shows that if we can admit the mistakes of the past and earnestly agree to try to do better in the future, we can come together to form a whole greater than the sum of its individual parts. This is taken to its maximum possible extension when we see first the Quarians and Geth, and then Joker and EDI push through the most extreme and uncrossable divide in science fiction, that between synthetics and organics, humans and machines, to form new and beautiful, if fragile, partnerships (on a personal note, I had to choke down a sob or two when Legion gave up his life to give that future to all of them - and I'm not typically a movie-crier).

The Betrayal
So here we are, standing at the culmination of three hundred hours of joy and tears, brought about through a profound exploration of the power of hope and inclusiveness in the unlikely form of a video game. We're watching every race in the galaxy: humans and turians, krogan and salarians, quarians and geth, and even the ageless, arrogant asari all come together in equal partnership to fearlessly face down an enemy of unimaginiable power and ancient evil, riding into a battle they cannot hope to win conventionally, prepared to fight and die for just the smallest hope of victory, fighting and dying to buy just the smallest chance that their friends and loved ones might escape utter and complete annhilation. And at the climax of that battle, we find ourselves confronted by the very avatar of intolerance, ruthlessness, cruelty, and arbitrary authority in the Starchild. And what does Bioware *force* us to do?

Bend our knee to it. We have to meekly accept the vile, unacceptable principle that there must always be winners and losers, that some battles are just too big to fight, some evils too powerful to defeat. That we must choose to bargain with the devil instead of spitting in his eye.

In other words, that everything Mass Effect has taught us is a lie. At the last moment, it strips of us of our unity, of our hope. It denies us the chance to pull together and win through to a glorious victory, or even to stand and die as free beings beside our brothers-in-arms. We must, it tells us, choose sides at the last. We must become the monster we despise, or accept a hateful amalgamation with an evil and soulless foe, or betray and sacrifice those who respect and count on us to achieve a broken and hollow victory.

And that, I believe, is what so many of us are *really* incensed about. Because we instinctively reject this insidious calumny as the end of the epic we've come to love. We reject the idea that we can't all work together to achieve greatness. That we can't stand together to become a whole and complete galaxy, greater than the sum of its parts and its petty daily grievances and indignities.

And that is what the "Retake Mass Effect" movement is really about, in my opinion, whether we articulate it or not. We are following the example Shepard sets. We are standing together in the face of a great philosophy that has been perverted to cynicism and division, and saying, "Dammit, give us back our hope."

Why It Matters
Yes, it's a game. But more than that, Shepard's story is a modern epic, no less valid in its time than the stories of Gilgamesh, Odysseus, Cuchillain, or Beowulf. Its themes are both laudable and universal, and worthy of note and remembrance. Bioware has failed at the final clinch, fallen in the final turn. But the responsibility for seeing this through was never really just their burden to bear. It falls to us to insist that they finish their masterpiece, that they remain true to themselves. It falls to us to hold the line, to make them see that they owe it to us, and more importantly to themselves, to give this epic the ending it deserves.



Edit: Added some subheadings to make it more readable, fixed a couple of typos. Just wanted to say how gratified I am that so many other people seem to feel this way. Thanks for the feedback!

Best post ever.

Hold the line for as long as it takes to get new endings.

Please check out this group and join in.

http://social.biowar...ndex/10317489/1

Thank you for your time.

[FunstuffofDoom]

. The others, including lead writer Drew Karpyshyn left at various points along the way. Karpyshyn left in February, which might or might not be relevant.

Karpyshyn's said, he didn't work on ME3 at all. He was writing for the Old Republic up until he left.

[Airquotes]

Shameless Bump

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Thank you. i think everyone should read the OP.

Hold the line for as long as it takes to get new endings.

Please check out this group and join in.

http://social.biowar...ndex/10317489/1

Thank you for your time.

[Wolvy]

 Thank you for posting that Sainta. It was well thought out, objective, and was very articulate. I didn't look at it as a wall of text. I enjoyed reading it.  :happy:

[sargon1986]

I shed a tear while reading your post OP. Well done.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Yeah this is the best post on the forum.

Hold the line for as long as it takes to get new endings.

Please check out this group and join in.

http://social.biowar...ndex/10317489/1

Thank you for your time.

[Sainta117]

sargon1986 wrote...

I shed a tear while reading your post OP. Well done.

Then my work here is done.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Oh no it is not,I didn't cry once! I want my tears!

Hold the line for as long as it takes to get new ending.

Please check out this group and join in.

http://social.biowar...ndex/10317489/1

Thank you for your time.

[TainGAME]

Couldn't agree more with OP. Sums up how I felt almost perfectly, with the added bonus of excellent writing. Great job mate.

[AshirahTSparkle]

It was a good read. I agree wholeheartedly. I shed a tear when Mordin was at the top of the Shroud and said "This is a new beginning..for all of us".

Then the ending came and said "sorry, no new beginning. You are screwed."

Felt like Mordin's sacrifice was all in vain.