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[Recidiva]

*during the "inspirational speech"*



Me: (internal monologue) Oh hell. This is awful. She sounds awful. She's simultaneously shrieking and shouting and it's coming out all wrong. I'm not inspired, I want her to get a referral to a voice coach. And I think she does my PC's voice, which is even worse, I keep wanting to smack myself. This is awful. I want to hide. She's horrible. Poor Alistair might have to listen to her in bed. I miss Alistair. Well, at least she doesn't upstage herself with her own shoulderpiece. "For the Grey Wardens?" Yeah, that's sincere. Being pragmatic sucks. Oh well, at least I get to feed Loghain to a big dragon. So it's not all bad.

[Servant of Nature]

Oof, yeah, Anora doing that speech is a real kick in the pants, innit? Also, as much as I try, I can't hate Loghain.



Loghain: Here, some smoked boar saved from supper. Huh, it'll do you good.

Dog: (Excited huffing)

Loghain: I had a mabari once. Adalla-- that was her name. We found her in the wood shed one night. She was still a pup then.

Loghain: We never figured out where she came from. My mother called her a gift from the Maler. And she was... she really was.

Loghain: She was beautiful; she had a lovely chestnut brown coat, and the most intelligent, understanding eyes. You would have liked her.

Dog: (He wags his tail.)

Loghain: We grew up together. She never left my side, not once. Ten years we had her, before she was taken away...

Dog: (He ****s his head and looks curiously at Loghain.)

Loghain: Another time, perhaps. Finish your snack.



*later*



Dog: (Sniffs the air curiously.)

Loghain: Oh, don't give me that face. I'm betting you want the cheese in my pocket.

Dog: (He sits and waits patiently)

Loghain: Very well, here you go. Don't eat it all at once. Or... do, whichever you prefer.

Loghain: I used to keep cheese in my pocket for Adalla too. I think the rinds were her favorite part.

Loghain: I mentioned she was taken from us, did I not? This was when Orlais still ruled, and it was and Orlesian lordling who took her.

Loghain: He wanted to mix the blood of our noble mabari with their frail, wasp-wasted game hounds, which were bred for looks, no intelligence.

Loghain: I tried to keep her, but there was little I could do to stop the Orlesian... I wasn't even a man then.

Loghain: You can imagine what it was like for her, being torn away from the boy-- the family she was bonded to.

Dog: (Long, low whine)

Loghain: It was six months before we saw her again. The Orlesian returned her-- and when I say "returned," I mean "pushed her out of his wagon."

Loghain: She was skin and bone, and still carried the scars from where their pronged collars bit into her neck. She never quite recovered.

Loghain: She passed away after a week. It was as though she held on long enough to come home to us. I held her head in my lap, and I believe she died happy.

Dog: (Sad whine)



As a dog person, broke my heart.

[Recidiva]

I don't hate Loghain particularly. I just think he's a completely crazy ****** who might have use as an Archdemon chew toy.



If any of his game choices made tactical sense to me in any way, I'd have cared more. As it is, I can't do much but dismiss him entirely as "bad guy" fodder.



Puppy stories are nice, but being a psychotic really trumps that in my world. Every criminal has a trauma to explain why they went snap. But the snap part really does count for something. Painting over a masterpiece is a worse tragedy than never being a masterpiece at all. Think of all the Mabari he wiped out at Ostagar.



In this case it isn't hating Loghain that does it. He'll serve a purpose while my hand-picked King goes on to not be jerky himself.

[Keldon Northwind]

No matter how many times I go through the game, I just can't bring myself to bring Loghain along in our merry band of misfits. The man is an idiot of such degree it's hard to feel any kind of sympathy to him. At all. Hell, I wouldn't even feed him to the Archdemon.



If Bioware hadn't made him such a **** I might've considered having him along.

[sagevallant]

So THAT'S why Loghain swore eternal paranoia against Orlais. It all makes sense now... I think?





You'd think he would get in arguments with Leliana at camp.

[Xandurpein]

I have to admit that I can't help feeling a certain amount of sympathy for Loghain when you kill him yourself and he does the consoling speech to Anora about daughters always being 6 year old to their fathers. It always gets to me and make me feel sad.

[Recidiva]

Keldon Northwind wrote...

No matter how many times I go through the game, I just can't bring myself to bring Loghain along in our merry band of misfits. The man is an idiot of such degree it's hard to feel any kind of sympathy to him. At all. Hell, I wouldn't even feed him to the Archdemon.

If Bioware hadn't made him such a **** I might've considered having him along.

Well, I just did it.  And he sacrificed himself and apologized for being foolish.  So there's that.  Alistair's a dick about me making him part of the best power couple rulers Ferelden's ever seen.

Leliana stayed with me "for a time."

I did unlock Redeemer and Perfectionist, so there's that.

Not my most satisfying game as I really didn't take anything for my character, it was geared toward benig the most selfless but also ended up being heartless.   No real attachment to the ending other than the best for everyone else, and basically getting the shaft myself.  Leliana wanted to travel but that only got her staying with me "for a time."

I even tried to grant the circle independence, but I saw no change in my epilogue at all about the circle's future.  and Cullen STILL snapped and became a menace to mages.

Ah well.  A couple of achievements down anyway, and curiosity sated.  Not doing that again though.  Loghain is zero fun and conversation with him was tedious and only resulted in me being honest and him disliking me more for it.

[Recidiva]

sagevallant wrote...

So THAT'S why Loghain swore eternal paranoia against Orlais. It all makes sense now... I think?

You'd think he would get in arguments with Leliana at camp.

It would have made sense though, had we been fighting the Orlesians, say, instead of...darkspawn.

His actions are pure paranoia that are the equivalent of me deciding that crumpets were the greatest threat because a crumpet once gave me indigestion, therefore I will stop at nothing to halt all crumpets...with no crumpets in sight.

[Recidiva]

Xandurpein wrote...

I have to admit that I can't help feeling a certain amount of sympathy for Loghain when you kill him yourself and he does the consoling speech to Anora about daughters always being 6 year old to their fathers. It always gets to me and make me feel sad.

That was touching.  But even more horrifying to realize he wasn't an abomination, but a real human being making all those horrific choices.

I spent my first game assuming he was like Ulrich.  To find out, no, no demonic influence, he's just that much of a paranoid maniac...who still loves dogs and little girls...eeeeeeek!  Chop its head off now!  Eeeee!

[eschilde]

Recidiva wrote...

It would have made sense though, had we been fighting the Orlesians, say, instead of...darkspawn.

His actions are pure paranoia that are the equivalent of me deciding that crumpets were the greatest threat because a crumpet once gave me indigestion, therefore I will stop at nothing to halt all crumpets...with no crumpets in sight.

Say what you will about it making sense against Orlesians, I still find killing Cailin extremely hard to justify with his character.. but that's a whole other thread!

[mousestalker]

The dialog option I wish had been present my first full run through:



Me: Alistair, my love. Your future happiness depends upon doing one thing and one thing only.



Alistair: What?



Me: After I defeat Loghain, Anora will likely ask for mercy. Keep your oh so handsome face shut. I will kill Loghain, irregardless of what is said. But if you ask for his death, your Queen, future wife and potential mother of your children will never forgive you. She will feel towards you as you now feel towards her father. Do me this favour, let her hate me and not you. That way the war ends, once and for all.



Alistair: Err...



Alistair just had to go and insist, didn't he?

[Recidiva]

eschilde wrote...

Say what you will about it making sense against Orlesians, I still find killing Cailin extremely hard to justify with his character.. but that's a whole other thread!

Right.  As far as I'm concerned, the lives he cost at Ostagar, including regicide, make it impossible for me to really give a damn about weighing cost versus risk in strategic or human terms.  It all comes down to "broken" and "crazy" because there's no logic or sense to it.  And I really reach a point where I have to go "you know, that's really bad writing and just a bunch of red herrings."  I tend to deal with people's actions and not their words, and the actions there are insupportable and indefensible.

Considering he wiped out thousands of troops and a good ruler, as well as that good ruler being someone he theoretically should lay down his life to protect for multiple backstory reasons...it makes his character make no sense to me.

What went before gets wiped out by what he did to swat a nonexistent Orlesian fly.  Or maintain his grip on power.  Or bolster his clearly fragile and lethal ego.  Choosing Howe as his best buddy and all the information you gain during side quests in the game strip him of any otherwise redeeming features.  

It reminds me of when people say that Hitler was a vegetarian and a painter.   Yes...but...that's really irrelevant in the big scheme of things, isn't it?

Evil is evil BECAUSE it can dehumanize people and use them to that extent, while compartmentalizing and sheltering some sense of personal humanity when they don't deserve it.

[Recidiva]

mousestalker wrote...

The dialog option I wish had been present my first full run through:

Me: Alistair, my love. Your future happiness depends upon doing one thing and one thing only.

Alistair: What?

Me: After I defeat Loghain, Anora will likely ask for mercy. Keep your oh so handsome face shut. I will kill Loghain, irregardless of what is said. But if you ask for his death, your Queen, future wife and potential mother of your children will never forgive you. She will feel towards you as you now feel towards her father. Do me this favour, let her hate me and not you. That way the war ends, once and for all.

Alistair: Err...

Alistair just had to go and insist, didn't he?

Yeah, I think the only way around that is to do the duel yourself.  If you let Alistair do the fighting, lots of options are gone.  You just get a nod and "this is for Duncan!"

Figured that one out the hard way!

Anora will forgive him if he WANTS to kill him, just not if he does kill him. If you do the duel, Riordan pops up and does his thing and then there's the potential argument.  For several playthroughs I had Alistair do the duel and I didn't even know there WERE options.

[mousestalker]

Recidiva wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Say what you will about it making sense against Orlesians, I still find killing Cailin extremely hard to justify with his character.. but that's a whole other thread!

Right.  As far as I'm concerned, the lives he cost at Ostagar, including regicide, make it impossible for me to really give a damn about weighing cost versus risk in strategic or human terms.  It all comes down to "broken" and "crazy" because there's no logic or sense to it.  And I really reach a point where I have to go "you know, that's really bad writing and just a bunch of red herrings."  I tend to deal with people's actions and not their words, and the actions there are insupportable and indefensible.

Considering he wiped out thousands of troops and a good ruler, as well as that good ruler being someone he theoretically should lay down his life to protect for multiple backstory reasons...it makes his character make no sense to me.

What went before gets wiped out by what he did to swat a nonexistent Orlesian fly.  Or maintain his grip on power.  Or bolster his clearly fragile and lethal ego.  Choosing Howe as his best buddy and all the information you gain during side quests in the game strip him of any otherwise redeeming features.  

It reminds me of when people say that Hitler was a vegetarian and a painter.   Yes...but...that's really irrelevant in the big scheme of things, isn't it?

Evil is evil BECAUSE it can dehumanize people and use them to that extent, while compartmentalizing and sheltering some sense of personal humanity when they don't deserve it.

My problem is that he not only is evil, he's unsuccessful at it. Let's assume Cailan was every bit a fool that Loghain thought he was. Why then do you throw away at least half of the army? Further, let's assume that the Orlesians are plotting to reclaim Fereldan. Let's give Loghain the benefit of all his doubts.

The Grey Wardens are a tiny group in Ferelden. They wield influence, not power. And they have commitments from mages, dwarves and elves. Now the mages are already committed as Ostagar, so no real need for the treaty from them. Everyone considers the elves to be marginal, so there is some logic in excluding them. But why do you not want the dwarves to help? They are accustomed to fighting the darkspawn, something that terrifies the human soldiers. They have absolutely no desire to expand on the surface, so they are no threat to Ferelden's independence.

Presumably the strike against the Couslands was the payoff for Howe's help. But why on earth do you want Howe's help? What about Howe's background suggests that he ought to be your right hand man?

Finally, Loghain is supposed to be a great general. One that created more enemies at the end than he had at the beginning. One who lost the only battle we see. One who muffed a civil war. And who throws away allies and assets needlessly.

A truly great, but paranoid general would accept the Orlesian help and use the Orlesian troops to lead every charge and start every battle. Let them die instead of Ferelden soldiers. Then when the Blight is over your army is intact and Orlais is weakened.

I can see letting Loghain become dragon chow at the end, but I can't see letting him survive longer than that.

/Machiavelli

Modifié par mousestalker, 13 décembre 2009 - 05:57 .

[Servant of Nature]

It's a bit hard to peg Loghain down. He lost.. a lot. Orlesian troops raped and murdered his mother in front of him, killed his father, took his father's lands, and from his point of view the Grey Wardens are an Orlesian force, one that almost got Maric killed.



It doesn't justify anything he did, of course, I think the whole point is we can't comprehend his paranoia, we just can't. I think the most bothersome thing, for me, is that if you talk to Loghain before the battle, he's perfectly sane, rather polite to you, if a bit abrasive. Then he goes nuts. Then the Landsmeet comes and if you show him mercy and talk to him, he's quite sane, and actually pleasant to talk to. Character-wise I could prefer him to Alistair, quite easily, were it not for the whole uncontrollable hatred of Orlais.

[Recidiva]

mousestalker wrote...

My problem is that he not only is evil, he's unsuccessful at it. Let's assume Cailan was every bit a fool that Loghain thought he was. Why then do you throw away at least half of the army? Further, let's assume that the Orlesians are plotting to reclaim Fereldan. Let's give Loghain the benefit of all his doubts.

The Grey Wardens are a tiny group in Ferelden. They wield influence, not power. And they have commitments from mages, dwarves and elves. Now the mages are already committed as Ostagar, so no real need for the treaty from them. Everyone considers the elves to be marginal, so there is some logic in excluding them. But why do you not want the dwarves to help? They are accustomed to fighting the darkspawn, something that terrifies the human soldiers. They have absolutely no desire to expand on the surface, so they are no threat to Ferelden's independence.

Presumably the strike against the Couslands was the payoff for Howe's help. But why on earth do you want Howe's help? What about Howe's background suggests that he ought to be your right hand man?

Finally, Loghain is supposed to be a great general. One that created more enemies at the end than he had at the beginning. One who lost the only battle we see. One who muffed a civil war. And who throws away allies and assets needlessly.

A truly great, but paranoid general would accept the Orlesian help and use the Orlesian troops to lead every charge and start every battle. Let them die instead of Ferelden soldiers. Then when the Blight is over your army is intact and Orlais is weakened.

I can see letting Loghain become dragon chow at the end, but I can't see letting him survive longer than that.

/Machiavelli

Amen!  Poor choice of allies, ridiculous inability to wipe out ... four people at most during the game through any of the multiple foul means the game makes available.  Leaving trails of incriminating evidence like bread crumbs.

"Inexpertly attempting to kill everyone who disagrees with me" is not a strategy.  It's a compulsion. 

[Recidiva]

Servant of Nature wrote...

It's a bit hard to peg Loghain down. He lost.. a lot. Orlesian troops raped and murdered his mother in front of him, killed his father, took his father's lands, and from his point of view the Grey Wardens are an Orlesian force, one that almost got Maric killed.

It doesn't justify anything he did, of course, I think the whole point is we can't comprehend his paranoia, we just can't. I think the most bothersome thing, for me, is that if you talk to Loghain before the battle, he's perfectly sane, rather polite to you, if a bit abrasive. Then he goes nuts. Then the Landsmeet comes and if you show him mercy and talk to him, he's quite sane, and actually pleasant to talk to. Character-wise I could prefer him to Alistair, quite easily, were it not for the whole uncontrollable hatred of Orlais.

Fine, so he's earned his crazy.  That doesn't make him difficult to peg AS crazy.  It just underlines it a lot.

The ability to "seem" not crazy doesn't make it better, it makes it worse.  As an actual person, he's impossible short of LOTS of crazy, not just the paranoia.  Take his actions compared to his conversation and you have to start factoring paranoia and a huge quotient of ignorance of reality or denial of reality, to make it all fit into the same skin.

Or...just decide he is civil when he feels backed into a corner, while he's plotting his next insane at swatting an Orlesian fly on your shoulder.

When you talk to him prior to arriving for Landsmeet, he insults you, insults Alistair and insults Eamon's ability to think straight.  Since HE is the one that got him poisoned, he's clearly capable of dissembling as a means of infurating his enemy.  And I think that's what he's doing.  On several fronts, including when he tells Anora to stop, which could just be that he doesn't want to appear to be weak in front of who is about to chop his head off. 

I don't find him civil, and talking to him at camp just brought denials of wanting to kill Anora, but no explanation as to why I had to rescue her instead.  Frankly I didn't and don't believe him.  I think he'd do anything and then cry about it later and say he was just..so...wounded...and everyone...made...him...do...it.

And I don't buy it.

[Servant of Nature]

I suppose. I really liked his character in the books, so I try to look for ways for my second favorite character not to be "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" material. I just.. don't.. get it. Everything about him says he would not kill Maric's son. Not kill Rowan's son. But he does it and feels perfectly justified.



Allying with Howe? Sure, why not, he's just a sadistic sociopath.

Selling elves? No problem, Maker'll judge me.

Poisoning Eamon? Have you SEEN his wife? Maybe he was doing him a favor. Those Orlesian birds!

Essentially murderering several thousand people, including the king and Warden-Commander of Ferelden? Of course! It was for Maric! For Ferelden!



It's so odd. He was a man who never, ever wanted power. His tatical genius is why the Rebellion was successful, he was raised up to the rank of General for good reason, it wasn't just because Maric liked him, the men depended on him. To be fair, though, Flemeth did tell Maric that Loghain would betray him, several times, each time worse the the last, he just didn't want to believe the cryptic old lady.



Bad move.

[mousestalker]

His going crazy is a lot like Gaius Marius in the Colleen McCullough books. In the first book he's pretty much the hero of the book. You genuinely like him and empathize a good bit with him. But as the series goes on and he has each little stroke, his personality changes and he becomes more and more of a monster. Loghain's behaviour would be more plausible if there were some discernible physical cause (other than grimacing and deeply hollowed eyes).

Modifié par mousestalker, 13 décembre 2009 - 06:31 .

[Recidiva]

Quick question to modders - I'm going to try a new playthrough and so far I'm going to use some of the respec potions, a mod that makes my PC blissfully shut up, an auto looter...



Anybody know of any model change mods? I want to try dwarven commoner origins, but I do not want to look like a dwarf. Having someone kneel down to kiss me isn't my favorite thing in the world.



I think my favorite is human. Anything to give my dwarven commoner a chance to look like a human would be great. I hate wincing when I look at myself.



Though it gets weird as an arcane warrior looking at the back of my own eyeballs. It somehow made the sex scenes BETTER because I didn't have stabby crazy eyes.



Any ideas?

[Vidar81]

yea Loghain was definatly insane I thought he was a better villain then the Archdemon because I could actually dislike him. The Archdemon was just acting according to it's nature and had no choice really. Something like a rabid dog still needs put down but never really felt the level of dislike for the darkspawn that I did for Loghain or Marjoline (both seem to be cut from the same cloth) this was kind of hinted at after Flemeth rescues the wardens (her speech about mens heart holding more darkness and all that)I think the game did an excellent job of driving that point home.



I agree with Recidiva when she says reasons don't matter actions do. Unless someones brain operates at the same level you will seldom really understand anothers motivations for doing something. Making excuses to try and humanize them is even worse cause then you start to feel more sympathy for them and whatever imagined trauma they've gone through then for those they've harmed. lol I know it's a game but too many people do this in reality as well (trying to sympathize with some disgusting pervert or killer cause he had a rough childhood) is kinda a pet peeve of mine

[Servant of Nature]

Recidiva wrote...


Anybody know of any model change mods? I want to try dwarven commoner origins, but I do not want to look like a dwarf. Having someone kneel down to kiss me isn't my favorite thing in the world.

I think my favorite is human. Anything to give my dwarven commoner a chance to look like a human would be great. I hate wincing when I look at myself.

It might be possible, I don't know, I'm very toolset-inept.  I had the same issue though, especially with female dwarves.  I like them but the ARMS BOTHER ME SO MUCH.  Arghsjkhdkfj gorilla arms, not right!

I got used to it, though, I suggest just giving it a go.

[Recidiva]

Vidar81 wrote...

yea Loghain was definatly insane I thought he was a better villain then the Archdemon because I could actually dislike him. The Archdemon was just acting according to it's nature and had no choice really. Something like a rabid dog still needs put down but never really felt the level of dislike for the darkspawn that I did for Loghain or Marjoline (both seem to be cut from the same cloth) this was kind of hinted at after Flemeth rescues the wardens (her speech about mens heart holding more darkness and all that)I think the game did an excellent job of driving that point home.

I agree with Recidiva when she says reasons don't matter actions do. Unless someones brain operates at the same level you will seldom really understand anothers motivations for doing something. Making excuses to try and humanize them is even worse cause then you start to feel more sympathy for them and whatever imagined trauma they've gone through then for those they've harmed. lol I know it's a game but too many people do this in reality as well (trying to sympathize with some disgusting pervert or killer cause he had a rough childhood) is kinda a pet peeve of mine

Yes, I do have sympathy for the pain and trauma that cause people to do what they do.  They still have to carry the consequences of their actions based on the choices they made from experiencing that pain and trauma.  Some people transform it into becoming protectors.  Torture and trauma do not always create villians, it can create saints.  So it has to do with someone's brain being able to process it, or in the choices one makes as a result.  Loghain did not choose to transform his suffering into compassion.  He transformed it into severing his humanity and blindness to consequences due to his obsession.

To me it is like a rabid dog.  It's horrible that the loving, wonderful dog isn't there any more.  But you can't hug that dog like it's the same thing it was before it got bitten.  Bad things happen then.  Then you risk being bitten and passing it along due to your unwillingness to face up to the true horror of what's happened.

If someone's that crazed, death is a mercy.  Pretending that they're just fine because they were fine fifteen years or minutes ago is just an inability to comprehend the transformation, and carrying forward the risk of you being its next victim.

Loghain isn't truly eligible for mercy because he shows no interest, ever, in redemption.  Even if you save him, he taunts you at camp for your inability to accomplish killing him.  He treats the whole thing as an insuccessful attempt on his life.  I could only stomach it knowing that'd be taken care of soon. 

[Recidiva]

Servant of Nature wrote...

It might be possible, I don't know, I'm very toolset-inept.  I had the same issue though, especially with female dwarves.  I like them but the ARMS BOTHER ME SO MUCH.  Arghsjkhdkfj gorilla arms, not right!

I got used to it, though, I suggest just giving it a go.

The arms already bother me a lot.  I have a mostly played through game as a male dwarf, but the romance with lel was really not adjusted at all and looked like total crap.  Anatomically impossible.

I'm trying to minimize things I've already done and I know I don't like, so this is one more.  I'll be a dwarf if I gotta be a dwarf, and I think the faces are beautiful, really.  Lots of gorgeous dwarves.  It's just the "interaction with other NPC" animations are really badly done.

Got a mod to bash chests open as well.  Yay!  I miss my rogue...trying to make being a warrior fun for me without spening every five minutes with my eye twitching since I can't open a lock.  Why put locked chests at Ostagar?  WHY?

[Dzikv]

Keldon Northwind wrote...

No matter how many times I go through the game, I just can't bring myself to bring Loghain along in our merry band of misfits. The man is an idiot of such degree it's hard to feel any kind of sympathy to him. At all. Hell, I wouldn't even feed him to the Archdemon.

If Bioware hadn't made him such a **** I might've considered having him along.

I actually feel the same about Alister... I sometimes take him along just to make him witness the most evil of things i can do...

Still i do agree that he is akward to such a dagree that its sometimes  fun...

I rather like Loghain. I myself wouldn't belive the grey wardens in his place... Just on faith. And the 4 legions of chevaliers on my borders would be alarming to me also.


EDIT: Great thread btw. Have been stalking here for days just laughing my lovely butt off. Keep it up ^^

Modifié par Dzikv, 13 décembre 2009 - 07:30 .