Asylumer wrote...
Heh, I was thinking more along the lines of:
Bryce: "What in the Maker's name did you do that for?! You just murdered Howe in cold blood!"
Me: "Oh come on. He was voiced by Tim Curry, so you KNOW he's a bad guy."
Bryce: "Ah, good point."
Modifié par Recidiva, 15 décembre 2009 - 06:02 .
Recidiva wrote...
Well, Cailan had won three battles so far. He was disappointed there wasn't more of a challenge. That doesn't mean he was sitting in his tent playing...video games...*cough*
If you consider that the darkspawn sent out a few raiding parties and then saved the main host for the final battle, it's still not as if Cailan hadn't gone to battle before and hadn't, in fact, won against them. So although he might have been "King Cool" in his head, he wasn't "King Slaughter Everyone Who Disagrees With Him" and apparently that's what it took to win the game one way or the other.
Had Loghain at least sent a message saying "WHOAH...that's a lot of darkspawn!" and Cailan had been able to say "Dude, no ****." "Bug out?" "Yeah, bug out. Yikes."
They had messengers. I saw one during my final onslaught in Denerim. We were sending messages and stuff. Could have helped. Instead, no message, no reinforcements, king chow.
I can't read that any other way than Loghain making a power grab. Otherwise there would have been cutscenes of Loghain desperately writing notes and using megaphones and semaphore.
And what's with poisoning Arl Eamon if he's some sort of "Gosh, that's a lot of darkspawn!" guy. It was all intended to be a fatal coup. He was then going about removing anybody who could even defend Cailan's memory or pose any military or political threat.
You can't argue that Loghain didn't plan ahead. He did. He had the poison and the troop pull-out already planned way before Ostagar. So if he's to remain a good strategist, he does so because he's only strategizing for himself and his own personal gain. So he can retain "strategist" as a title. But he can't retain sane, measured or good in any way.
Recidiva wrote...
Asylumer wrote...
Heh, I was thinking more along the lines of:
Bryce: "What in the Maker's name did you do that for?! You just murdered Howe in cold blood!"
Me: "Oh come on. He was voiced by Tim Curry, so you KNOW he's a bad guy."
Bryce: "Ah, good point."
Me: At least it wasn't Christopher Waulken.
Bryce: Maker forbid. We got off easy.
sagevallant wrote...
But Arl Eamon married a flippin' Orlesian woman! CLEARLY HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!
Ditto for the Wardens. The order only just returned to Fereldan, and they all had to come from somewhere. Even the ones recruited in Fereldan were still in a foreign organization, by Loghain's standards. A foreign organization that Cailan idolizes and eagerly unifies with. CLEARLY HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!
Loghain's paranoid psychotic, sure, but he's not quite insane. I'm not saying he's right (hence the caps, it's sarcasm). That's the problem with being a brilliant strategist; you start associating your own strategic prowess to everyone else. You find yourself thinking "If I wanted to gain someone's trust, I would do what he's doing now for me. CLEARLY HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!"
And it's all because the Orlesians stole and mistreated his dog
sagevallant wrote...
But Arl Eamon married a flippin' Orlesian woman! CLEARLY HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!
Ditto for the Wardens. The order only just returned to Fereldan, and they all had to come from somewhere. Even the ones recruited in Fereldan were still in a foreign organization, by Loghain's standards. A foreign organization that Cailan idolizes and eagerly unifies with. CLEARLY HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!
Loghain's paranoid psychotic, sure, but he's not quite insane. I'm not saying he's right (hence the caps, it's sarcasm). That's the problem with being a brilliant strategist; you start associating your own strategic prowess to everyone else. You find yourself thinking "If I wanted to gain someone's trust, I would do what he's doing now for me. CLEARLY HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!"
And it's all because the Orlesians stole and mistreated his dog
sagevallant wrote...
Hey, I like Christopher Walken
Recidiva wrote...
sagevallant wrote...
Hey, I like Christopher Walken
I do too! Can you imagine trying to win against Christopher Walken?!
mousestalker wrote...
You'd need an awful lot of cowbell, that's for sure.
Recidiva wrote...
sagevallant wrote...
Hey, I like Christopher Walken
I do too! Can you imagine trying to win against Christopher Walken?!
Recidiva wrote...
sagevallant wrote...
But Arl Eamon married a flippin' Orlesian woman! CLEARLY HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!
Ditto for the Wardens. The order only just returned to Fereldan, and they all had to come from somewhere. Even the ones recruited in Fereldan were still in a foreign organization, by Loghain's standards. A foreign organization that Cailan idolizes and eagerly unifies with. CLEARLY HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!
Loghain's paranoid psychotic, sure, but he's not quite insane. I'm not saying he's right (hence the caps, it's sarcasm). That's the problem with being a brilliant strategist; you start associating your own strategic prowess to everyone else. You find yourself thinking "If I wanted to gain someone's trust, I would do what he's doing now for me. CLEARLY HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!"
And it's all because the Orlesians stole and mistreated his dog
I'm sorry, I cannot put "brilliant" in front of his "strategist" anything.
Since he relies on Howe for most of his ideas, apparently. Cutscenes again.
I'm not sure what the distinction is between "paranoid psychotic" and "insane" exactly. But I'd like to hear it.
sagevallant wrote...
Technically, it's less paranoid and more xenophobic, I suppose. Though I don't really know why he trusts Howe, since if you pay attention in the Human Noble origin you learn the Howes actually sided with the Orlesians in the liberation. But Howe clearly tells the Human Noble PC that it was actually his attack on the Couslands that got him Loghain's attention.
Loghain is a strategist, in that he's a general who led the armies successfully. Howe is an underhanded bastard, who is pretty much independantly responsible for what he does. Including his imprisonment and potential murder of Anora (from what I read on the forums, no one would blame him for that). I have to imagine that, should Loghain actually have succeeded in defeating the Blight and establishing peace on his own, Howe would've received a lovely public execution for his troubles.
Asylumer wrote...
Heh, I was thinking more along the lines of:
Bryce: "What in the Maker's name did you do that for?! You just murdered Howe in cold blood!"
Me: "Oh come on. He was voiced by Tim Curry, so you KNOW he's a bad guy."
Bryce: "Ah, good point."
tausra wrote...
Was I the only one who heard Tim Curry and gasped. He's doing a lot of voice-over work lately and I was stunned to hear him in this of all games.
Zandilar wrote...
Mind you, Grey Wardens have short lives anyway - at the end of which they head down into the Deep Roads and kill Darkspawn until they die... The voice of the (remaining) archdemons become siren calls to them. I think the implication is that they (wardens) have about 30 years at most after the Joining before they go on their suicide run. Which makes me wonder what would happen to Alistair if he were King? He wouldn't rule for very long, and Wardens don't tend to be particularly fertile either due to their taint (and this would be especially bad if he was ruling with the female human Noble PC at his side, since it would be a double dose of low fertility!), so sireing an heir might be a problem for him. (All stuff that did come up in the game at points, in the codex, stuff Wynne and Duncan said, and whatnot, but don't ask me to look it all up... lol)
tigrina wrote...
/cheers at the side lines for this thread
Maybe it does even help me to find the courage to play through Landsmeet some more. All my characters tend to get stuck at level 16 or so.
Recidiva wrote...
I'm sorry, I cannot put "brilliant" in front of his "strategist" anything.
Zenocrate wrote...
The very least Loghain could have done is organize a strike force to extract the king. If he could successfully retreat at that late in the battle with thousands of soldiers, he sure as heck could have gone in with a couple battalions, grabbed the king, and double-timed it to catch up with the main group.
Cailan had shown he was willing to collaborate with the Orleasians and that was enough to earn a death sentence from Loghain. Ostagar was a convenience. I'd be willing to bet Loghain would have had Anora poison Cailan as soon as Cailan showed any sympathy towards Orlais (and given her character, I don't doubt she'd do it....good grief, what I'd give for a mod allowing the beheading of Anora in the storyline, or worse if possible).
Modifié par Dark Elf 91, 15 décembre 2009 - 11:27 .
cpip wrote...
Well, I'd gather Loghain's a brilliant military strategist. Statler And Waldorf tell us he's knocking around the forces arrayed against him fairly solidly until The Warden gets Arl Eamon back on his feet and he calls the Landsmeet.
What Loghain is NOT, however, is a decent politician, or even a mediocre one, once people stop thinking of him as the Hero of River Dane and more as a possible shameless power-grabber (as Bann Teagan is the first to do publicly). So he leans on Howe, who we know is a slimy, backstabbing bastard: theoretically the "right man" for the job of managing to accomplish by intrigue what Loghain cannot by force. Unfortunately, while Howe may be the best man Loghain has available to him for the job, he's not sufficient for it all.
Dark Elf 91 wrote...
What I think most of the people here are forgetting is that Loghain tried to convince Cailan not to stand at the front of the battle with the Grey Wardens. Every time we see Cailan and Loghain talk, Loghain tries to convince Cailan not to trust the Grey Wardens. Cailan didn't listen because he dreamed of glory and wanted to be a hero and ride to battle with the legendary Grey Wardens of lore. He might have planned to eliminate the Grey Wardens all along, but I don't think he planned to have Cailan killed, that was just an unfortunate consequence. I think Loghain just really didn't trust the Grey Wardens (I don't know why) and wanted to eliminate them at all costs, even if that meant killing his king.
EDIT: Btw I love this topic, I especially love your posts Recidiva.
Recidiva wrote...
Why is "being a nice guy" somehow a worse crime than being a liar, murderer, poisoner, conspirator and all around bad guy?
Cailan at least theoretically killed some darkspawn. Loghain just...killed people. Lots of them. Those that could have been...fighting darkspawn.
What great thing did Loghain accomplish by his actions that gets him this devotion?
Recidiva wrote...
Why is "being a nice guy" somehow a worse crime than being a liar, murderer, poisoner, conspirator and all around bad guy?
Cailan at least theoretically killed some darkspawn. Loghain just...killed people. Lots of them. Those that could have been...fighting darkspawn.
What great thing did Loghain accomplish by his actions that gets him this devotion?
Recidiva wrote...
Everything's better with muppets.
Recidiva wrote...
Dark Elf 91 wrote...
What I think most of the people here are forgetting is that Loghain tried to convince Cailan not to stand at the front of the battle with the Grey Wardens. Every time we see Cailan and Loghain talk, Loghain tries to convince Cailan not to trust the Grey Wardens. Cailan didn't listen because he dreamed of glory and wanted to be a hero and ride to battle with the legendary Grey Wardens of lore. He might have planned to eliminate the Grey Wardens all along, but I don't think he planned to have Cailan killed, that was just an unfortunate consequence. I think Loghain just really didn't trust the Grey Wardens (I don't know why) and wanted to eliminate them at all costs, even if that meant killing his king.
EDIT: Btw I love this topic, I especially love your posts Recidiva.
Why is "being a nice guy" somehow a worse crime than being a liar, murderer, poisoner, conspirator and all around bad guy?
Cailan at least theoretically killed some darkspawn. Loghain just...killed people. Lots of them. Those that could have been...fighting darkspawn.
What great thing did Loghain accomplish by his actions that gets him this devotion?
Modifié par Dark Elf 91, 16 décembre 2009 - 02:14 .
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