2834 réponses à ce sujet

[tigrina]

Sialater wrote...
She admitted she didn't, tigrina. She's going off what she's read here. To some, the Hero of River Dane shouldn't be the lunatic we get in the game and resorting to the insanity plea is a weak plot device.

Since I've had way too many books/games/movies do that lately, I agree. Why can't we just have someone who's just bad to the bone without a broken childhood/crazy obsession/lost sled for a reason?

Because both the game and the books are supposed to be grey and not black and white I suppose.
Personally I don't see how people can actually see Loghain purely as "hero" though, but I guess that is my interpretation of said books. It isn't a character change of white to black.

Modifié par tigrina, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:30 .

[mousestalker]

tigrina wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

tigrina wrote...
Oh yes, I agree he totally lost it and well you can see that very early in game. I just don't think he is inconsistent with the books though.

Yeah, but why do something like that, create a human character with depth and integrity and then go "Oh, he's crazy now."
Cheap.

Did you actually read the books? I'm not really trying to start a full blown Loghain character dissection session right here (since I rather don't do that at all), but there is hints of 'crazy' all over. And he still does the thing he thinks is right in his book. I find the 'cheap' remark rather cheap.

I have read the books (and much regretted reading the second one). Loghain's character in the game is adequately foreshadowed in the books. However, having a 'good guy' go crazy to become the 'bad guy' is over-used in certain types of fiction.

My problem is that Loghain went from a pragmatic tactical 'win at all costs' genius to a bit of an incompetent. If I were Loghain and thought Cailan was an accident waiting to happen, I'd have a nice chat with the Antivan equivalent of Vizzini. Have Cailan assassinated and frame the Orlesians for it. That leaves me a completely intact army to fight the Blight and unites the country behind me.

[Sialater]

I get it, despite the title, there are no real heroes in Thedas.





Even the Grey Wardens use a blood magic ritual.

[tigrina]

Recidiva wrote...
So my apologies if I don't know all the information, I'm argumentative and curious at the same time, so that's what'cha get

A bit of discussion, that is what you get
I don't mind that, honest. I just sometimes get hit by the someone is wrong syndrome.

Sialater wrote...
I get it, despite the title, there are no real heroes in Thedas.

Even the Grey Wardens use a blood magic ritual.

The Grey Wardens are aptly named Grey, yes. It isn't a full blown organisation of 'good' (or 'white'). The more I think
about it, the more I am going to 'black' though. Organisations which
aren't in check by anyone, usually tend to grow out to something really
bad.

Modifié par tigrina, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:43 .

[blazin130791]

i havnt read the books but from whati know of history and psyhcology people in power can easily become deluded and paranoid. also think of the role jealousy could play, the littlest thing can plant the seed of jealousy and i imagine someone as proud as loghain with a history like his wouldnt apppreciate being bossed around by a king who spends wayyy to much time on his hair.



urgh i could have gone on in more detail but i need to go out.

[Recidiva]

tigrina wrote...

Because both the game and the books are supposed to be grey and not black and white I suppose.
Personally I don't see how people can actually see Loghain purely as "hero" though, but I guess that is my interpretation of said books. It isn't a character change of white to black.

Okay, well, keep in mind, I'm a writer myself and I also have a history in theater and roleplaying.  This is my thing, so to speak.

This is one of those times where as a roleplayer, writer or an actress, I'd have a problem with a this character's integrity.  That famous "what's his motivation" line.  And in this case my only answer really is "Oh, well he went crazy."

Crazy is a bad plot device.  You either portray crazy clinically because you've researched a condition and you can portray it wisely...Take "A Beautiful Mind" - the point is to portray the crazy clearly.  And it succeeds.  It's not a plot device, but it's consistent to plot and character. 

I understand all the needs of having to make a plot hang together, I just happen to think the truest craft remains true to plot AND character and doesn't just build a character to serve a plot twist by plugging in "crazy."  I dislike it in art, because I think crazy always draws the short straw.  It's as hackneyed as the old "amnesia" plot device.

If Loghain is to live and breathe, he has to be able to tell the plot to go to hell if it makes no sense.

[blazin130791]

tigrina i think half the people on here, myself included, are guilty of acting like that wihtout even realising itlol

[Recidiva]

tigrina wrote...

A bit of discussion, that is what you get
I don't mind that, honest. I just sometimes get hit by the someone is wrong syndrome.


The Grey Wardens are aptly named Grey, yes. It isn't a full blown organisation of 'good' (or 'white'). The more I think
about it, the more I am going to 'black' though. Organisations which
aren't in check by anyone, usually tend to grow out to something really
bad.

Discussion...IS...AWESOME!

I'm not a grey person.  I can portray a grey person, and this game forces me to.   I can think of fifteen other things I'd do at every other junction, but I can't.  I have to choose gray.  I can't make a white or a black choice.  There really aren't any.  The game forces you to serve the greater good by ending the Blight.  Several of my characters in playthrough, however, have just hit the road and head to Orlais.

However, it's not really my...thing.  The companion characters are incredibly entertaining and are the complete strength of the game.  However, being forced to choose between 49% evil and 51% evil all the time lacks...dynamic tension.

And I do think the game carries that too far and tries to make it seem like it's this way in reality, and that doesn't hang together either.  There is real black and white and having all gray provides...no contrast.

I love the game for what it is...and I'm disappointed by what it could have been had there been more allowance of...non gray.

[Recidiva]

blazin130791 wrote...

i havnt read the books but from whati know of history and psyhcology people in power can easily become deluded and paranoid. also think of the role jealousy could play, the littlest thing can plant the seed of jealousy and i imagine someone as proud as loghain with a history like his wouldnt apppreciate being bossed around by a king who spends wayyy to much time on his hair.

urgh i could have gone on in more detail but i need to go out.

Well, my hobbies are writing and drama and acting.

My job, though, is in reviewing psychological and medical case files.

So I've got "The Perfect Storm" for this sorta thing. 

Modifié par Recidiva, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:51 .

[tigrina]

Recidiva wrote...
Discussion...IS...AWESOME!

I'm not a grey person.  I can portray a grey person, and this game forces me to.   I can think of fifteen other things I'd do at every other junction, but I can't.  I have to choose gray.  I can't make a white or a black choice.  There really aren't any.  The game forces you to serve the greater good by ending the Blight.  Several of my characters in playthrough, however, have just hit the road and head to Orlais.

However, it's not really my...thing.  The companion characters are incredibly entertaining and are the complete strength of the game.  However, being forced to choose between 49% evil and 51% evil all the time lacks...dynamic tension.

And I do think the game carries that too far and tries to make it seem like it's this way in reality, and that doesn't hang together either.  There is real black and white and having all gray provides...no contrast.

I love the game for what it is...and I'm disappointed by what it could have been had there been more allowance of...non gray.

Bah, now you're making it too easy for me. I am going to agree with you! Heh. But I do.

And having a 'bad guy' who is mostly just more paranoid then ever for Orlesians and an arch demon which is really evil but does not really think. Darkspawn is evil but mostly mindless. The Chantry (as organisation) is grey at best.

I guess I mostly miss the white bits which could have been there.

[Sialater]

tigrina wrote...

Recidiva wrote...
Discussion...IS...AWESOME!

I'm not a grey person.  I can portray a grey person, and this game forces me to.   I can think of fifteen other things I'd do at every other junction, but I can't.  I have to choose gray.  I can't make a white or a black choice.  There really aren't any.  The game forces you to serve the greater good by ending the Blight.  Several of my characters in playthrough, however, have just hit the road and head to Orlais.

However, it's not really my...thing.  The companion characters are incredibly entertaining and are the complete strength of the game.  However, being forced to choose between 49% evil and 51% evil all the time lacks...dynamic tension.

And I do think the game carries that too far and tries to make it seem like it's this way in reality, and that doesn't hang together either.  There is real black and white and having all gray provides...no contrast.

I love the game for what it is...and I'm disappointed by what it could have been had there been more allowance of...non gray.

Bah, now you're making it too easy for me. I am going to agree with you! Heh. But I do.

And having a 'bad guy' who is mostly just more paranoid then ever for Orlesians and an arch demon which is really evil but does not really think. Darkspawn is evil but mostly mindless. The Chantry (as organisation) is grey at best.

I guess I mostly miss the white bits which could have been there.

The "white bits" are the PC.  And maybe Alistair/Wynne/unhardened Leliana and maybe Zevran - even he has a line he will not cross.

[sagevallant]

It's probably good that they didn't give me a "white" option, even though I DID constantly find myself taking the really hard route because it seemed to be the "most white available" choice. Like taking out Zathrian to try and end the the curse. Going to the mage tower to save the kid. Killing Branka and destroying the anvil. There's not much "gray" to "keep a means of making golems that requires killing people" and " destroying a powerful artifact that is OBVIOUSLY going to be abused at some point." I mean, do we really want the fanatic dwarves to be able to make huge stone & iron bodies for themselves? After the politics I went through there, I wouldn't trust them with a Red Rider BB Gun...

[Sialater]

sagevallant wrote...

It's probably good that they didn't give me a "white" option, even though I DID constantly find myself taking the really hard route because it seemed to be the "most white available" choice. Like taking out Zathrian to try and end the the curse. Going to the mage tower to save the kid. Killing Branka and destroying the anvil. There's not much "gray" to "keep a means of making golems that requires killing people" and " destroying a powerful artifact that is OBVIOUSLY going to be abused at some point." I mean, do we really want the fanatic dwarves to be able to make huge stone & iron bodies for themselves? After the politics I went through there, I wouldn't trust them with a Red Rider BB Gun...

I want to know why breaking the curse is siding with the Elves when the Werewolves WANTED to be free from it.

[Recidiva]

sagevallant wrote...

It's probably good that they didn't give me a "white" option, even though I DID constantly find myself taking the really hard route because it seemed to be the "most white available" choice. Like taking out Zathrian to try and end the the curse. Going to the mage tower to save the kid. Killing Branka and destroying the anvil. There's not much "gray" to "keep a means of making golems that requires killing people" and " destroying a powerful artifact that is OBVIOUSLY going to be abused at some point." I mean, do we really want the fanatic dwarves to be able to make huge stone & iron bodies for themselves? After the politics I went through there, I wouldn't trust them with a Red Rider BB Gun...

Orzammar in particular is entirely unsatisfying.  Forced to be a lackey to either Harrowmont or Bhelen, both of which are atrocious.  Then you get the bonus choice, Crazy Branka.  And if you save Caradin, all he's gonna do is jump in lava.

Yes, the horror of going through it is the story.  But you make...NO PROGRESS whatsoever.  The whole game is just letting people be slightly less screwed up than maybe they were yesterday.

Saving Redcliffe and saving Connor are white.  They also provide lots of extra quest exp.

Saving the Dalish is nice.  But they caused their own problems.  Same with the tower.  You're saving people from themselves and then...not making any changes...because you can't.

Makes no sense as you're solving all these problems for people who can't solve them themselves.  

If the game had downloadable content where you could go back in after you handled the blight and then set everyone either on the path to not being dumbasses or making the PC profit from their corruption, that would make some sort of sense.

Otherwise it's "Look!  I ended the blight, now y'all can go back to being stupid and corrupt.  Bye!"

[Sialater]

Recidiva wrote...

sagevallant wrote...

It's probably good that they didn't give me a "white" option, even though I DID constantly find myself taking the really hard route because it seemed to be the "most white available" choice. Like taking out Zathrian to try and end the the curse. Going to the mage tower to save the kid. Killing Branka and destroying the anvil. There's not much "gray" to "keep a means of making golems that requires killing people" and " destroying a powerful artifact that is OBVIOUSLY going to be abused at some point." I mean, do we really want the fanatic dwarves to be able to make huge stone & iron bodies for themselves? After the politics I went through there, I wouldn't trust them with a Red Rider BB Gun...

Orzammar in particular is entirely unsatisfying.  Forced to be a lackey to either Harrowmont or Bhelen, both of which are atrocious.  Then you get the bonus choice, Crazy Branka.  And if you save Caradin, all he's gonna do is jump in lava.

Yes, the horror of going through it is the story.  But you make...NO PROGRESS whatsoever.  The whole game is just letting people be slightly less screwed up than maybe they were yesterday.

Saving Redcliffe and saving Connor are white.  They also provide lots of extra quest exp.

Saving the Dalish is nice.  But they caused their own problems.  Same with the tower.  You're saving people from themselves and then...not making any changes...because you can't.

Makes no sense as you're solving all these problems for people who can't solve them themselves.  

If the game had downloadable content where you could go back in after you handled the blight and then set everyone either on the path to not being dumbasses or making the PC profit from their corruption, that would make some sort of sense.

Otherwise it's "Look!  I ended the blight, now y'all can go back to being stupid and corrupt.  Bye!"

Unfortunately, that's kind of an argument to take Morrigan's deal or let Al take out the Archdemon.  Ferelden needs you to hold its hand. It's lost without you.

[Recidiva]

Sialater wrote...

Unfortunately, that's kind of an argument to take Morrigan's deal or let Al take out the Archdemon.  Ferelden needs you to hold its hand. It's lost without you.

No, to me that's a truly evil act.

That's just giving yourself a pass and double-condemning the next generation.  Passing the buck that's collecting massive evil interest.

[mousestalker]

Recidiva wrote...

sagevallant wrote...

It's probably good that they didn't give me a "white" option, even though I DID constantly find myself taking the really hard route because it seemed to be the "most white available" choice. Like taking out Zathrian to try and end the the curse. Going to the mage tower to save the kid. Killing Branka and destroying the anvil. There's not much "gray" to "keep a means of making golems that requires killing people" and " destroying a powerful artifact that is OBVIOUSLY going to be abused at some point." I mean, do we really want the fanatic dwarves to be able to make huge stone & iron bodies for themselves? After the politics I went through there, I wouldn't trust them with a Red Rider BB Gun...

Orzammar in particular is entirely unsatisfying.  Forced to be a lackey to either Harrowmont or Bhelen, both of which are atrocious.  Then you get the bonus choice, Crazy Branka.  And if you save Caradin, all he's gonna do is jump in lava.

Yes, the horror of going through it is the story.  But you make...NO PROGRESS whatsoever.  The whole game is just letting people be slightly less screwed up than maybe they were yesterday.

Saving Redcliffe and saving Connor are white.  They also provide lots of extra quest exp.

Saving the Dalish is nice.  But they caused their own problems.  Same with the tower.  You're saving people from themselves and then...not making any changes...because you can't.

Makes no sense as you're solving all these problems for people who can't solve them themselves.  

If the game had downloadable content where you could go back in after you handled the blight and then set everyone either on the path to not being dumbasses or making the PC profit from their corruption, that would make some sort of sense.

Otherwise it's "Look!  I ended the blight, now y'all can go back to being stupid and corrupt.  Bye!"

I actually like Orzammar. I didn't until I did dwarf commoner. Then choosing the king made perfect sense. As did dwarf noble. My real problem with Orzammar is that for any non-dwarf origin it's a dwarf toss to decide on a candidate.

One of the positive features is that you can choose party members there and the bridge to the Proving Grounds always generates party dialog.

[Recidiva]

Yaaay!



We have a little white dry erase board on our fridge that was once intended to be used to write down messages about where we were...but it devolved into a comedy opportunity.



I just noticed. My daughter rewrote it to say "For you, maybe. But it would have to be a pretty dress." (I made her choose that dialogue option....)



And she has a drawing of a T-shirt with a circle and a line through it "No!"



Then an evening gown with an exclamation point and "Yes!" next to it.



So cute.

[Recidiva]

mousestalker wrote...

I actually like Orzammar. I didn't until I did dwarf commoner. Then choosing the king made perfect sense. As did dwarf noble. My real problem with Orzammar is that for any non-dwarf origin it's a dwarf toss to decide on a candidate.

One of the positive features is that you can choose party members there and the bridge to the Proving Grounds always generates party dialog.

Oh yeah, the bridge is great.

Either way I'd rather execute them right off and get on with my day, then ask the Council if anybody else wants to fight me while I put Dagna in charge.

[tigrina]

mousestalker wrote...
I actually like Orzammar. I didn't until I did dwarf commoner. Then choosing the king made perfect sense. As did dwarf noble. My real problem with Orzammar is that for any non-dwarf origin it's a dwarf toss to decide on a candidate.

One of the positive features is that you can choose party members there and the bridge to the Proving Grounds always generates party dialog.

I agree here. As a dwarf, Orzammar makes sense. As non-dwarf, it doesn't. If you manage that somehow as a game, you have done something right, methinks. The origins made it a lot easier to roleplay my characters. I have had so much delight as player about my very angry dwarf commoner character at times. It makes sense. And I'm glad the grumpy options aren't necessarily the 'evil' ones. On Orzammar: at least you can see the difference between 'traditionalist' Harromont and 'man of change' Bhelen, even when they are both grey at best.

Modifié par tigrina, 21 décembre 2009 - 05:42 .

[sagevallant]

Sialater wrote...

I want to know why breaking the curse is siding with the Elves when the Werewolves WANTED to be free from it.

I didn't say it was siding with the elves. I said it was the "white" answer. Freeing people from the curse inflicted on their ancestors hundreds of years ago is a decidedly "Neutral Good" option. Not letting the elves continue to be led by a racist bastard is a good deed. Especially when he does finally recant after you give him a thrashing. Sure, the elves might need time to adjust, but you can let them think Zathrian wasn't a raging douche. All's well that ends well.

Slaughtering a bunch of cursed individuals when a CURE could actually be available is an evil deed. Wiping out even a bunch of "monsters" that attempt a dialogue with you is an evil choice. And, personally, I was kind of hoping it would be a nearly inescapable trap because this is the kind of game that should take advantage of you for trying to be a saint.

One thing I do like is that choosing the options that save lives tends to weaken your reserves in the final battle. A real hero wouldn't call for help at all >.>

[Sialater]

sagevallant wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I want to know why breaking the curse is siding with the Elves when the Werewolves WANTED to be free from it.

I didn't say it was siding with the elves. I said it was the "white" answer. Freeing people from the curse inflicted on their ancestors hundreds of years ago is a decidedly "Neutral Good" option. Not letting the elves continue to be led by a racist bastard is a good deed. Especially when he does finally recant after you give him a thrashing. Sure, the elves might need time to adjust, but you can let them think Zathrian wasn't a raging douche. All's well that ends well.

Slaughtering a bunch of cursed individuals when a CURE could actually be available is an evil deed. Wiping out even a bunch of "monsters" that attempt a dialogue with you is an evil choice. And, personally, I was kind of hoping it would be a nearly inescapable trap because this is the kind of game that should take advantage of you for trying to be a saint.

One thing I do like is that choosing the options that save lives tends to weaken your reserves in the final battle. A real hero wouldn't call for help at all >.>

Oh, I know, I was just talking about the achievement.  It was the "white" middle ground, but it still counted as siding with the Elves.  When option "A" was to take Winterfang's heart, option "B" was to let the werewolves slaughter the Dalish tribe, and then option "C" is to simply just break the curse, the achievements only reflect A or B and if you chose "C", you got an achievement you weren't trying for, you were just trying to be a good guy.

[Recidiva]

Sialater wrote...

Oh, I know, I was just talking about the achievement.  It was the "white" middle ground, but it still counted as siding with the Elves.  When option "A" was to take Winterfang's heart, option "B" was to let the werewolves slaughter the Dalish tribe, and then option "C" is to simply just break the curse, the achievements only reflect A or B and if you chose "C", you got an achievement you weren't trying for, you were just trying to be a good guy.

I've never taken Witherfang's heart.  I guess I just never considered it.  

[sagevallant]

Recidiva wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Oh, I know, I was just talking about the achievement.  It was the "white" middle ground, but it still counted as siding with the Elves.  When option "A" was to take Winterfang's heart, option "B" was to let the werewolves slaughter the Dalish tribe, and then option "C" is to simply just break the curse, the achievements only reflect A or B and if you chose "C", you got an achievement you weren't trying for, you were just trying to be a good guy.

I've never taken Witherfang's heart.  I guess I just never considered it.  

My current playthrough was supposed to be my "bad" one, basically aimed at getting all the strong units for my army. Golems, templars, and werewolves. But I'm short on potions for once, and I realized that getting the templars pretty much means either killing Connor or sacrificing Isolde. So, as it turns out, I wasn't REALLY prepared for it. I may have to make another mage so I can have sufficient healing available to make up for lack of potions...

[Sialater]

Recidiva wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Oh, I know, I was just talking about the achievement.  It was the "white" middle ground, but it still counted as siding with the Elves.  When option "A" was to take Winterfang's heart, option "B" was to let the werewolves slaughter the Dalish tribe, and then option "C" is to simply just break the curse, the achievements only reflect A or B and if you chose "C", you got an achievement you weren't trying for, you were just trying to be a good guy.

I've never taken Witherfang's heart.  I guess I just never considered it.  

I never did, either.  I always just break the curse, but it's an XBOX achievement, IIRC.