2834 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialater]

sagevallant wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Oh, I know, I was just talking about the achievement.  It was the "white" middle ground, but it still counted as siding with the Elves.  When option "A" was to take Winterfang's heart, option "B" was to let the werewolves slaughter the Dalish tribe, and then option "C" is to simply just break the curse, the achievements only reflect A or B and if you chose "C", you got an achievement you weren't trying for, you were just trying to be a good guy.

I've never taken Witherfang's heart.  I guess I just never considered it.  

My current playthrough was supposed to be my "bad" one, basically aimed at getting all the strong units for my army. Golems, templars, and werewolves. But I'm short on potions for once, and I realized that getting the templars pretty much means either killing Connor or sacrificing Isolde. So, as it turns out, I wasn't REALLY prepared for it. I may have to make another mage so I can have sufficient healing available to make up for lack of potions...

Yeah, my husband discovered you can't logistically annull the Tower and wipe out the Elves.  It's bad for business.

[Recidiva]

sagevallant wrote...

My current playthrough was supposed to be my "bad" one, basically aimed at getting all the strong units for my army. Golems, templars, and werewolves. But I'm short on potions for once, and I realized that getting the templars pretty much means either killing Connor or sacrificing Isolde. So, as it turns out, I wasn't REALLY prepared for it. I may have to make another mage so I can have sufficient healing available to make up for lack of potions...

It's weird, because I gave up on trying to be bad on higher difficulty settings.  It just takes too much damned time.

So now I'm going to have an evil playthrough, I know to make sure I have enough poultices, I'm going to have the "strong" allies.

But the fact is that the allies in the final battle...at least on the rooftop...SUCK.  They're always populated in the middle of the road and doing just about nothing...or blowing up your allies by friendly fire.

In order to survive gathering the allies without being insanely frustrated I set it on easy, which means I don't need them at all. 

[Khayness]

Wow, nice stream of thoughts about the black or white moralisation lads! Sometimes you have to think outside the alignment axis, that's why this game is so fun.



For my part, my motives were pretty clear: There is no good or evil, only selfish motivations. Selflessness isn't a surviving treat. You are just doing it to prove something, or statisfy yourself. I help you because no matter how strong I am, we are stronger together. (Bhelen rocks in politics, the shaky traditions got Orzammar to where it is now, and Harrowmont wants to keep them up) And sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind (shaping Alistair to be a responsible king).

[Recidiva]

Khayness wrote...

Wow, nice stream of thoughts about the black or white moralisation lads! Sometimes you have to think outside the alignment axis, that's why this game is so fun.

For my part, my motives were pretty clear: There is no good or evil, only selfish motivations. Selflessness isn't a surviving treat. You are just doing it to prove something, or statisfy yourself. I help you because no matter how strong I am, we are stronger together. (Bhelen rocks in politics, the shaky traditions got Orzammar to where it is now, and Harrowmont wants to keep them up) And sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind (shaping Alistair to be a responsible king).

Thanks!  This is a good place for stream of consciousness.

I think there is a "greater good for all involved" and a "greatest good for the individual"  They are different, however, and they don't result in the same actions.

But making things be difficult doesn't mean that good and evil don't exist.  Means that you have engineered circumstances where most of your choices are removed entirely.  Not the same thing.

Makes "greater good" more relevant if I have to think of children living in a world I helped create and define.  Having kids sorta permanently altered the way I think in general.

From my point of view, both Bhelen and Harrowmont are reprehensible pieces of crap and nothing Bioware writes into the Epilogue changes my mind about that. 

There are heroes and good leaders.  They think about greater good and act accordingly.

And there are many better ways of being cruel to be kind than by lying.  Having to say to him that "Everyone is out for themselves" is a lie.  It's not true.  If you say "Some people are out for themselves and you need to learn to judge someone by their actions and not their appearance" that would have been true.

Selflessness isn't an individual survival trait, but it's the only way that individuals in a group allow the group to survive as a whole while other individuals are being selfish.

Modifié par Recidiva, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:28 .

[Sialater]

Recidiva wrote...

Khayness wrote...

Wow, nice stream of thoughts about the black or white moralisation lads! Sometimes you have to think outside the alignment axis, that's why this game is so fun.

For my part, my motives were pretty clear: There is no good or evil, only selfish motivations. Selflessness isn't a surviving treat. You are just doing it to prove something, or statisfy yourself. I help you because no matter how strong I am, we are stronger together. (Bhelen rocks in politics, the shaky traditions got Orzammar to where it is now, and Harrowmont wants to keep them up) And sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind (shaping Alistair to be a responsible king).

Thanks!  This is a good place for stream of consciousness.

I think there is a "greater good for all involved" and a "greatest good for the individual"  They are different, however, and they don't result in the same actions.

But making things be difficult doesn't mean that good and evil don't exist.  Means that you have engineered circumstances where most of your choices are removed entirely.  Not the same thing.

Makes "greater good" more relevant if I have to think of children living in a world I helped create and define.  Having kids sorta permanently altered the way I think in general.

From my point of view, both Bhelen and Harrowmont are reprehensible pieces of crap and nothing Bioware writes into the Epilogue changes my mind about that. 

There are heroes and good leaders.  They think about greater good and act accordingly.

And there are many better ways of being cruel to be kind than by lying.  Having to say to him that "Everyone is out for themselves" is a lie.  It's not true.  If you say "Some people are out for themselves and you need to learn to judge someone by their actions and not their appearance" that would have been true.

Selflessness isn't an individual survival trait, but it's the only way that individuals in a group allow the group to survive as a whole while other individuals are being selfish.

Yeah, but Bhelen does it all for love. 

[Recidiva]

Sialater wrote...

Yeah, but Bhelen does it all for love. 

Right.  Tell that to my dwarven noble.  He disagrees.  Rather vehemently in fact.

[Sialater]

Recidiva wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Yeah, but Bhelen does it all for love. 

Right.  Tell that to my dwarven noble.  He disagrees.  Rather vehemently in fact.

[/tongue-in-cheek]

But seriously, DA:O really comes down hard on the lovers in the game.  Bhelen practically sells his soul to the archdemon to be able to marry his girlfriend.  Isolde watches her son sell his soul to a demon to save his father.  Zathrian declares eternal vengeance for love of his children.   Morrigan leaves the PC high and dry, taking his (possible) kid with her, Alistair dumps the non-Cousland PC, and Zev and Lel are the second choices (scripted to be so, whether they are or not.)

[Khayness]

Recidiva wrote...

Selflessness isn't an individual survival trait, but it's the only way that individuals in a group allow the group to survive as a whole while other individuals are being selfish.

People can lead their lives more efficently in a society, so they sustain it and remain in it.

But I take it we have kind of the antagonistic point of view here

The funny thing about the ultimate sacrifice - I only did it 'cause it was the best way out: I despised Morrigan's plan, I'd still have the taint, cutting my life shorter, and giving her more power than she can handle. Let's go out with a glorious bang, the kind everyone will remember for eons to come. Still better than wither from the taint.

Modifié par Khayness, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:47 .

[Recidiva]

Sialater wrote...

But seriously, DA:O really comes down hard on the lovers in the game.  Bhelen practically sells his soul to the archdemon to be able to marry his girlfriend.  Isolde watches her son sell his soul to a demon to save his father.  Zathrian declares eternal vengeance for love of his children.   Morrigan leaves the PC high and dry, taking his (possible) kid with her, Alistair dumps the non-Cousland PC, and Zev and Lel are the second choices (scripted to be so, whether they are or not.)

Right.  It's Bioware Canon that caring and loving means you're weak and the strong will trample over you.

I don't buy it and I kinda hate being squooshed into that thought pattern. 

At the end of the first game I did feel I'd been spanked for being loving and being a girl.

It really didn't get much better.  I can be less loving and less interested and the ending might be "better" for Ferelden, but there's no reason for me to play.

When I play an "Evil" character, I don't give a damn about the blight and eventually when I get enough money to live comfortably in Orlais, I sneak out of camp in the middle of the night and disappear.

[Recidiva]

Khayness wrote...

The funny thing about the ultimate sacrifice - I only did it 'cause it was the best way out: I despised Morrigan's plan, I'd still have the taint, cutting my life shorter, and giving her more power than she can handle. Let's go out with a glorious bang, the kind everyone will remember for eons to come. Still better than wither from the taint.

I did the sacrifice because it's the only way to have Ferelden have a decent King (if Alistair is hardened) and mostly to deny Anora the throne because she's Elven bane.

I'm with you on the "get out of Dodge" motivation.  I despised Duncan and the grey wardens by the end of the game in any character.

Wasn't too fond of the world, either.  Took me a while to figure out how to not be the death of Alistair, but once that's over, my guilt assuaged...I'm back to ditching camp in the middle of the night.

[Seallyn]

Recidiva wrote...


Right.  It's Bioware Canon that caring and loving means you're weak and the strong will trample over you.

I don't buy it and I kinda hate being squooshed into that thought pattern. 

At the end of the first game I did feel I'd been spanked for being loving and being a girl.

It really didn't get much better.  I can be less loving and less interested and the ending might be "better" for Ferelden, but there's no reason for me to play.

When I play an "Evil" character, I don't give a damn about the blight and eventually when I get enough money to live comfortably in Orlais, I sneak out of camp in the middle of the night and disappear.

Well look at what Wynne says when she first talks about you and Alistair (and maybe others, I haven't done that yet).  She tells you to break up because love is inevitably selfish (which depending on how you look at it, is true).  Still that line really shocked me.  I did not expect her to say something like that.  I know she changes her mind, but I'm like WTF?

Modifié par Seallyn, 21 décembre 2009 - 08:00 .

[Sialater]

But it's such a wonderful thing when two people come together despite the odds. (I don't see a :rolleye: emoticon.)

[Seallyn]

Sialater wrote...

But it's such a wonderful thing when two people come together despite the odds. (I don't see a :rolleye: emoticon.)

Awww...it is a wonderful thing.  It makes all the crap they go through together not so bad. 

[Recidiva]

Seallyn wrote...

Well look at what Wynne says when she first talks about you and Alistair (and maybe others, I haven't done that yet).  She tells you to break up because love is inevitably selfish (which depending on how you look at it, is true).  Still that line really shocked me.  I did not expect her to say something like that.  I know she changes her mind, but I'm like WTF?

Hah!  I know.  For me it's one of the most unselfish things I've ever experienced.  I recognize the Bioware stamp though. 

There's a Whoopi Goldberg line that I hear in my head when given such ridiculous and ignorant advice.  During one of her original Broadway one-woman shows she plays a valley girl who is taking advice from a nun about sex and the nun is saying all these things about the nature of sex and Whoopi says "Penguin, how would you know?"  That's my attitude toward Wynne.  Never had a chance to really love someone, missed the chances to have real intimacy and real love and real family.  I feel sorry for her, but there's no way I'm thinking any of her advice is any of the practical variety.

For all her wisdom, she's entirely ignorant of reality outside a horrific tower, and what real people are capable of doing when they love each other.

What makes me so incredibly grateful and made me hug my husband during this game is the times I can recall situations like it...in my real life...and how I handled them entirely differently...and didn't get Biowared by reality.

[Seallyn]

Oh and I know this might be a little late, but speaking of Loghain: I've started reading the first book, I'm a little more half way through. Loghain definitely has some crazy in his blood, so I could see him eventually going off the deep end, but I don't think the in game scenario where he just goes nuts all of a sudden is satisfactory. He has all this built up angst, anger, and suspicion, but you never see a good reason for him to break.

[Sialater]

My point was that making it harder for the couple to be together or the family to be happy, makes them better, somehow, story-wise for some.





Makes me wonder exactly HOW happy Teagan and Kaitlyn are. LOL

[Sialater]

Seallyn wrote...

Oh and I know this might be a little late, but speaking of Loghain: I've started reading the first book, I'm a little more half way through. Loghain definitely has some crazy in his blood, so I could see him eventually going off the deep end, but I don't think the in game scenario where he just goes nuts all of a sudden is satisfactory. He has all this built up angst, anger, and suspicion, but you never see a good reason for him to break.

Probably because it's Maric's death that was the straw.

[Seallyn]

Recidiva wrote...


Hah!  I know.  For me it's one of the most unselfish things I've ever experienced.  I recognize the Bioware stamp though. 

There's a Whoopi Goldberg line that I hear in my head when given such ridiculous and ignorant advice.  During one of her original Broadway one-woman shows she plays a valley girl who is taking advice from a nun about sex and the nun is saying all these things about the nature of sex and Whoopi says "Penguin, how would you know?"  That's my attitude toward Wynne.  Never had a chance to really love someone, missed the chances to have real intimacy and real love and real family.  I feel sorry for her, but there's no way I'm thinking any of her advice is any of the practical variety.

For all her wisdom, she's entirely ignorant of reality outside a horrific tower, and what real people are capable of doing when they love each other.

What makes me so incredibly grateful and made me hug my husband during this game is the times I can recall situations like it...in my real life...and how I handled them entirely differently...and didn't get Biowared by reality.

Yeah the first time I heard her say it, it made no sense to me.  I was like, "nerd, love is like the greatest thing in the world, it's what makes life not so crappy.  And not even specifically romantic love just love in general.  For all your wisdom you're kinda an idiot".  But you're right, Recidiva, she hasn't had any experience in that area, or she might even be a little jaded for all we know.  Maybe she loved someone (like Irving perhaps, hmmm) and he chose duty over her or something so she's all bitter and crap. 

[Sialater]

Kinda like the PC after being dumped by Alistair?

[Seallyn]

Sialater wrote...


Probably because it's Maric's death that was the straw.

Hmmm...maybe.  It's a good theory at least.  But I just don't get why he would betray Maric's son, either of them, actually.  Maybe something happens that we don't see, that will come out later with an expansion.  Hope, hope, hope, hope.

[Recidiva]

Sialater wrote...

My point was that making it harder for the couple to be together or the family to be happy, makes them better, somehow, story-wise for some.


Makes me wonder exactly HOW happy Teagan and Kaitlyn are. LOL

I think the point is that love really doesn't give a damn about those obstacles and they either intelligently find ways around them and resolve them sanely...OR...they end up hung up on them like razor wire.  But they don't stop trying.  They can't.  Cause...well...love doesn't work that way.

Deciding not to deal with the obstacles probably means it's not love.  It means it's desire and convenience.  So in Landsmeet where Alistair chooses social convention over love, that's the defining moment of - oh.  You're not even trying.  So...by my math, not love.  That's overstating a case and really good writing, but it's not writing about love.  It's writing about a character the writers fell in love with and lavished love and care and lovely words upon, and then sorta strung up for plot purposes.  All my experiences of love go in other directions.  I EXPECTED Alistair to fight, to disagree, to care, to...not collapse into wet cookie dough.

And unfortunately the game treats love like it can take a back seat to anything else.  Real love drives your life.

I'm just lucky to not think it's a myth, I guess.  Or to not accept that it's always doomed.

[Seallyn]

Sialater wrote...

Kinda like the PC after being dumped by Alistair?

YES!!!!  Man that PISSED ME OFF!!  I thought, "YOU DOUCHE!  You don't even have to chose duty over me, I can just be your mistress.  If you're a noble in this day and age, it's what you HAVE to do to be with someone you love, 'cause chances that you actually end up loving your future queen are pretty low, buddy".  I actually ended up writing a blog about it (I posted it on this thread too, somewhere) where he get's what he deserves.  He ends up with some pious be-yotch and then comes crawling back to me.  In hindsight I should have refused him, but I was into sappy at the time, so I forgave him.  Meh.

[Seallyn]

Sialater wrote...

Makes me wonder exactly HOW happy Teagan and Kaitlyn are. LOL

First off, when does this happen, and how did I miss it?

Recidiva wrote...

Real love drives your life.

I'm just lucky to not think it's a myth, I guess.  Or to not accept that it's always doomed.

Second, Yay!!!  I 110% agree!  I totally believe in true love.  I've seen it.

Third, I  hoped Alistair would fight and when he didn't, I was so disappointed.  Your character gets the chace to say, "So we just had sex...and that's it?"  Or something to that extent, and that's what I felt like.  You sleep with me, saying that you've never done this before, and that I was the first one and you want me to be the last one, blah, blah, blah, but when the time comes to prove your love for me you totally bail?  What the crap, man, what...the...crap?

[Sialater]

Well, the thing about the dumping (and I had to think long and hard about this for my elf mage to try again), is that uh-hardened Alistair has no evidence that it's even POSSIBLE to fight for love. Fight for freedom, fight for safety, fight for food, but love, like Wynne said, is both selfish and selfless. Unhardened Alistair has no experience with this. He can't comprehend it. Duty is more real. Love feels selfish, but it's not, therefore, unhardened Alistair chooses duty over love because he doesn't GET the selfless part. Hardened Alistair gets the selfish part and then figures out the selfless part.



I'm pretty sure your Chancellor PC could end up Queen after slaying the Archdemon. Who's gonna dare say "no"? LOL

[Sialater]

The Kaitlyn and Teagan thing is a post card if you gave her the 500 silver for her sword. I'M a bit creeped by it since she's young enough to be his daughter, but I didn't write it.