2834 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Yes, because trusting one's own father and Ferelden's hero is obviously trusting the wrong people, and the kind of mistake no one else in whole Ferelden did

Hmm no, i don't see how this analogy is supposed to work, sorry.

If you have slaves then they remain slaves no matter what personal attitude you hold towards them (a slaver is a slaver is a slaver)
But if your behavior indicates lack of certain attitude then it is rather reasonable to deduce that such attitude is not, in fact, present. (a person who doesn't hate slaves cannot be really called slave-hater, can they?)

Okay.  Well, I don't have much else to say then.  If having slaves is okay if you are completely indifferent to the idea of having slaves, I just don't have the frame of reference or the interest in arguing about that one.  I'm at a loss.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Even Loghain disagrees with you.  "Ferelden has a queen and I command her armies."

To be precise Loghain claims "she can lead our people through this crisis, and I can lead her armies." in the context of Anora making bid to keep the throne during the Landsmeet. Which is Ferelden version of "read my lips: no more taxes" and not necessarily indication of the current state of things

(that is, Anora can be the queen and given enough time the "officially royal" army can be eventually rebuilt to its previous strength, something Loghain has been doing with his slaver deals and whatnot. But even then one would be very naive to expect the Queen is going to have any say in how these armies are actually utilized)

Okay.  Well, I don't have much else to say then.  If having slaves is okay if you are completely indifferent to the idea of having slaves, I just don't have the frame of reference or the interest in arguing about that one.  I'm at a loss.

I think we have a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying that having slaves is "okay if you're indifferent" but rather that the act of having slaves and holding certain attitude towards slaves are two separate things. As such, the exact attitude cannot be determined from the act of having slaves alone.

To put in another way so it hopefully is more clear, i'd think it's presumptous to conclude "X beats their slaves" from nothing but "X owns slaves", as if the act of ownership automatically meant such beatings must happen, no exceptions.

This is getting pretty far from the original point though, so no problem with dropping it.

[Zenocrate]

Recidiva wrote...Even Loghain disagrees with you. "Ferelden has a queen and I command her armies."

I'm 99% sure that is a specific quote. In any case in both quotes he says "HER armies."

I'm agreeing with most here that Anora is a awful and terrible and I hate her. But that is mostly because of my experience with her in my first playthrough of the game. I 'revealed' her to Cauthrien, then back at the arl's estate, made an agreement with her that if she married Alistair, I'd support her for queen as long as she supported me. So what does she go and do at the landsmeet? Claim she is for Loghain. Realizing that she probably really disliked me for revealing her, I reload. Choose to surrender to Cauthrien so as not to reveal Anora. Get her to agree to Alistair etc... (and make doubly sure this time). Get the Landsmeet...she supports her father again. reload. Get into a fight with Cauthrien without revealing Anora, marry Alistair, etc...Supports her dad. Screw it. Reload the landsmeet about 5 times to get the 6-1 vote needed to avoid the brawl (but STILL have to do the duel....whoever put THAT design in the game has his head in his ass btw). Alistair kills Loghain and she....refuses to marry Alistair. Reload. My pc kills Loghain and she now.........refuses to marry Alistair.

So basically, on my first playthrough, Anora is nothing but a lying ****. I mysteriously develop a STRONG dislike for her (amazingly, I still like Morrigan! =p) and despise the thought of her being the ruler of Ferelden.

Btw...Bodahn restocks on rumors as the game progresses...and your daughter needs to play faster Reci, MORE STORIES!

Side note: I have a friend with a gf who he convinced to first go to the Brecillian forest with her character since he had yet to go there. We were talking the other night at a Christmas get-together and I told her that she could sleep with Cammen and that if she was a male toon it could go the other way and about the dialogue option, "Just inspecting the goods," and in general ruin that whole love-story. Her eyes got wide, "No WAAAY!" They left the party shortly thereafter.

[Keldon Northwind]

Yeah, Anora is a lying little b*tch. She's never happy no matter what you do. The only time she'll actually agree to whatever you're saying is if you have high enough Persuade skill. I got her to marry Alistair and everyone lived happily ever after. But, still, no matter how you twist and turn it: she'd rather stab you in the back than help you.

Even the Landsmeet is a bit iffy. Even if you get the entire Landsmeet with you she seems unhappy. Loghain, doubly so.

Certain characters were just so poorly developed and rushed I feel absolutely no compassion or understanding as to why they do what they do. Loghain is a prime example. He doesn't like the Orlesians. That's fine. Old grudges and whatnot. But to think that the Orlesians are the "prime suspects and troublemakers" when there's a legion of darkspawn knocking on the door is just insane.

I get that he's paranoid. But to such an extent? It makes it difficult to believe and plain ridiculous.

Modifié par Keldon Northwind, 23 décembre 2009 - 01:08 .

[Recidiva]

Yeah, I just don't trust her because just like Alistair, she'll only support you or like you if you do things exactly her way.



And you still have to rescue her exactly her way and if you say that you're there to protect her, she doesn't use any of her power to tell anybody to stand down on your behalf. She betrays you and ditches. She has no authority and she proves it right there.



There's no way to honestly convince her to support Alistair for the throne. Even though you rescue her and save her bacon, she wants her bacon on the throne no matter what. Even if she's an elf-hating wench and Alistair would make a better king alone.



So I have no patience with jollying her along. Bottom line, she's incompetent and bad news for at least 1/3 of Ferelden. Even hardened Alistair will say as much. She's used to getting her way, uses power poorly and abusively, and he'll be king to stop her from doing that.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Even hardened Alistair will say as much.

Hardened Alistair wants his own bacon on the throne. Of course he isn't going to admit anything positive about his opponent at this point, very much like Anora won't ever consider/admit he could be a better candidate than herself

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Hardened Alistair wants his own bacon on the throne. Of course he isn't going to admit anything positive about his opponent at this point, very much like Anora won't ever consider/admit he could be a better candidate than herself

Actually hardened Alistair is okay with being king or not being king, he's just not terrified of the idea and is more willing to consider the responsibility.

And the final point...Alistair makes a good king solo and Anora does not make a good queen solo.

[Recidiva]

Zenocrate wrote...Btw...Bodahn restocks on rumors as the game progresses...and your daughter needs to play faster Reci, MORE STORIES!

Me:  I notice you're an archer, but you keep moving in close, to melee range, why is that?
Daughter:  I like kicking them in the nads.
Me:  Fair enough.

[ozsras]

Zenocrate wrote...
I'm 99% sure that is a specific quote. In any case in both quotes he says "HER armies."
I'm agreeing with most here that Anora is a awful and terrible and I hate her. But that is mostly because of my experience with her in my first playthrough of the game. I 'revealed' her to Cauthrien, then back at the arl's estate, made an agreement with her that if she married Alistair, I'd support her for queen as long as she supported me. So what does she go and do at the landsmeet? Claim she is for Loghain. Realizing that she probably really disliked me for revealing her, I reload. Choose to surrender to Cauthrien so as not to reveal Anora. Get her to agree to Alistair etc... (and make doubly sure this time). Get the Landsmeet...she supports her father again. reload. Get into a fight with Cauthrien without revealing Anora, marry Alistair, etc...Supports her dad. Screw it. Reload the landsmeet about 5 times to get the 6-1 vote needed to avoid the brawl (but STILL have to do the duel....whoever put THAT design in the game has his head in his ass btw). Alistair kills Loghain and she....refuses to marry Alistair. Reload. My pc kills Loghain and she now.........refuses to marry Alistair.

My first two playthroughs I had the subtitles off and apparently my hearing is going because everytime Anora said "biddable"  about Alistair I thought she was saying "bedable" as in good enough to sleep with. And  I just kept cracking up - I thought she *really* wanted to sleep with him and lord was that entertaining. So I guess that's why I like her so much. She made it an entertaining experience. XD

Same thing happened with her Elven lady in waiting - when she said "Arl Howe hires new gaurds every day" I thought she said "girls" so I had an all girl party going into the Arl of Denerium estate. *facepalm* LOL

Modifié par ozsras, 23 décembre 2009 - 01:51 .

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

And the final point...Alistair makes a good king solo and Anora does not make a good queen solo.

Meh, i think she does make a very good queen solo all things considered. Though i may have preference for seeing a ruler actually do something specific even with setbacks, than the copout of "and then they ruled happily ever after much to the glee of magically and overnight all-politically correct population of the country. And there was cake, too."

edit: also, Alistair being okay with being king or not being king -- certainly. I just said that his own desire to be a king plays a part in how he perceives his opponent to the throne or at least how he speaks of her. If he's not hardened he can acknowledge she's likely to make a better ruler after all.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 décembre 2009 - 01:57 .

[tigrina]

tmp7704 wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

And the final point...Alistair makes a good king solo and Anora does not make a good queen solo.

Meh, i think she does make a very good queen solo all things considered. Though i may have preference for seeing a ruler actually do something specific even with setbacks, than the copout of "and then they ruled happily ever after much to the glee of magically and overnight all-politically correct population of the country. And there was cake, too."

edit: also, Alistair being okay with being king or not being king -- certainly. I just said that his own desire to be a king plays a part in how he perceives his opponent to the throne or at least how he speaks of her. If he's not hardened he can acknowledge she's likely to make a better ruler after all.

Of course he does that when he is not 'hardened'. His insecurity plays a big role in that one. It doesn't make it true though.

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Meh, i think she does make a very good queen solo all things considered. Though i may have preference for seeing a ruler actually do something specific even with setbacks, than the copout of "and then they ruled happily ever after much to the glee of magically and overnight all-politically correct population of the country. And there was cake, too."

edit: also, Alistair being okay with being king or not being king -- certainly. I just said that his own desire to be a king plays a part in how he perceives his opponent to the throne or at least how he speaks of her. If he's not hardened he can acknowledge she's likely to make a better ruler after all.

Hardened Alistair and Anora rule well together. 

My concern for Anora's ruling skills are only if she's alone.  If she has company, then good things happen.  Ideally a "Golden Age" is possible, which is what happened when I married them.

Unhardened Alistair is a weak ******.  His opinion that she would be better is based on the fact that if he says otherwise, he's king.  Hardened Alistair isn't much better, but good enough for Ferelden to not experience ethnic cleansing.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Hardened Alistair isn't much better, but good enough for Ferelden to not experience ethnic cleansing.

Hardened Alistair somehow gets to rule alternate reality Ferelden where the tensions between elves and humans either no longer exist or don't warrant a mention. To be honest the implausibility of such epilogue is mildly annoying, given the game was trying to paint its setting as more down-to-earth than that.

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Hardened Alistair somehow gets to rule alternate reality Ferelden where the tensions between elves and humans either no longer exist or don't warrant a mention. To be honest the implausibility of such epilogue is mildly annoying, given the game was trying to paint its setting as more down-to-earth than that.

Why is it more down to earth to be hateful?  Why isn't it equally realistic to have someone make an effort to bridge gaps and change attitudes?

Someone should get the chance since my PC obviously failed at every attempt in game when I do pretty well at it in reality.

[theczaroftsars]

after reading the first few pages of this thread i literally almost laughed myself to death as i couldnt breathe, i cant believe there is 50 pages of this stuff

[Recidiva]

theczaroftsars wrote...

after reading the first few pages of this thread i literally almost laughed myself to death as i couldnt breathe, i cant believe there is 50 pages of this stuff

Here's to your pulmonary health!

It does meander a bit, but I am glad you enjoyed it

[Recidiva]

*Deep Trenches*



Me: Wait...what the...where is Sten?

Alistair: He's...well..

Dog: *whine*

Me: What?

Alistair: Well, he fell unconscious and you just...kept going.

Me: I did? Why didn't anybody say something?

Dog: *whine*

Alistair: Well, you just kept running, I assumed you had a plan.

Me: Right. A plan. To leave an unconscious party member abandoned.

Alistair: Well, considering how everyone else that we've come across has fared, I assumed I'd best wait until the plan became clear.

Dog: *affirmative bark*

Me: Well, fine, let's go back and get him.

Alistair: *relieved sigh* I thought I was maybe next.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Why is it more down to earth to be hateful?  Why isn't it equally realistic to have someone make an effort to bridge gaps and change attitudes?

I'm not saying it's unrealistic to make an effort. What i'm saying is, it's unrealistic such effort of a single person (one that isn't even mentioned in the epilogue for that matter) actually would miraculously change attitudes and bridge generations-wide gaps without any worth of mention backlash. This to boot in medieval backwater country without any sort of media or even organized postal service. Or any organized government extending beyond something more than city guards and tax collectors.

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

I'm not saying it's unrealistic to make an effort. What i'm saying is, it's unrealistic such effort of a single person (one that isn't even mentioned in the epilogue for that matter) actually would miraculously change attitudes and bridge generations-wide gaps without any worth of mention backlash. This to boot in medieval backwater country without any sort of media or even organized postal service. Or any organized government extending beyond something more than city guards and tax collectors.

Maybe because someone who was witness to and part of ending the blight didn't think that it would be too hard to show some grace and dignity and cause something to promote peace for once.

And maybe someone who was part of ending the blight would command enough respect that people would listen and cooperate.

As they likely owed him their skins, the least they could do would be to not slaughter each other and finish up the job the darkspawn started.

Modifié par Recidiva, 23 décembre 2009 - 03:20 .

[Zachriel]

What i'm saying is, it's unrealistic such effort of a single person (one that isn't even mentioned in the epilogue for that matter) actually would miraculously change attitudes and bridge generations-wide gaps without any worth of mention backlash.

For a single ordinary person, affecting massive social change would be impossible, certainly. But when you're a king, and a king who just recently helpd to save the world, you have quite a bit more influence. Harden Allistair up, and he'll have spine enough to stand up to Anora, which could have been all the difference elves rioting and getting crushed by the Denerim armry, and a longer lasting peace between the races.

[Recidiva]

Zachriel wrote...

For a single ordinary person, affecting massive social change would be impossible, certainly. But when you're a king, and a king who just recently helpd to save the world, you have quite a bit more influence. Harden Allistair up, and he'll have spine enough to stand up to Anora, which could have been all the difference elves rioting and getting crushed by the Denerim armry, and a longer lasting peace between the races.

I don't see how it's so much of a stretch.  Considering it's the king's men doing the oppressing and the cruelty.

All you have to do is ask them to stop doing that.  As they know what happened to previous management who didn't cease and desist...there's motivation.

[Zachriel]

It's also possible that the rioting in the alienage does happen when Allistair is kind, but gets no mention in the epilogue because he resolves it peacefully whereas Anora does not. In this case, it would sort of be included in "and they all lived happily ever after." The point of the epilogue is to sum up events that happen after the game, highlighting noteworthy events.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

As they likely owed him their skins, the least they could do would be to not slaughter each other and finish up the job the darkspawn started.

"You know, one good thing about the Blight is how it brings people together."
"Apparently everyone seems to agree that a Blight is the perfect time to start killing each other. Marvelous, really."

this is the world you're expecting to magically change. These people didn't even wait for the darkspawn to do the work for them, they're more than happy to slit one another's throats over their petty squabbles while the world burnt around them.

"So, George says Billy said Thomas heard one guy in the inn telling a story how another guy stabbed a dragon in the eye in Denerim? Golly for him, too bad that great hero couldn't be here when the darkspawn raided our village because our bann couldn't be bothered to protect us, his peasants."

for these folks to pay any heed to what "the Hero of Ferelden" or even their king says, and to completely change their attitudes they've been taught for generations by their own ancestors and neighbours (rather than some never-seen stranger) that's just expecting too much i think. That's if they even get to hear any of what that hero or that king says, to begin with.

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

"You know, one good thing about the Blight is how it brings people together."
"Apparently everyone seems to agree that a Blight is the perfect time to start killing each other. Marvelous, really."

this is the world you're expecting to magically change. These people didn't even wait for the darkspawn to do the work for them, they're more than happy to slit one another's throats over their petty squabbles while the world burnt around them.

"So, George says Billy said Thomas heard one guy in the inn telling a story how another guy stabbed a dragon in the eye in Denerim? Golly for him, too bad that great hero couldn't be here when the darkspawn raided our village because our bann couldn't be bothered to protect us, his peasants."

for these folks to pay any heed to what "the Hero of Ferelden" or even their king says, and to completely change their attitudes they've been taught for generations by their own ancestors and neighbours (rather than some never-seen stranger) that's just expecting too much i think. That's if they even get to hear any of what that hero or that king says, to begin with.

Okay, I've hit another "I can't do much with this" wall.

If you think nobody tries to change things within their scope because it's impossible, there's all sorts of history to contradict you.

The thought that it's impossible is usually the first obstacle to be overcome.

So enjoy your limitations, I'll just keep defying them, thanks.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

All you have to do is ask them to stop doing that.  As they know what happened to previous management who didn't cease and desist...there's motivation.

Keep in mind the racial tensions are not just about the behaviour of  the king's army, it's also basic attitudes of regular people. And it's a two-way street too -- you have elves who gang upon and beat up humans simply because they're humans just like you have the humans harass the elves for just being elves. In the endings that don't happen in the magical PC Ferelden the Bann of Alienage generally gets murdered because these tensions escalate after the elves grow stronger. It's not something that could be prevented just by telling your guards to be nicer.

And really... the concept of threatening people into "mutual respect"? It just doesn't work like that. If you tell someone "you should treat this kitten with respect or else" they will resent the kitten even more and look for ways to vent that resentment, because they'll now see the kitten as responsible for such enforcement and potential punishment.