2834 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

If you think nobody tries to change things within their scope because it's impossible, there's all sorts of history to contradict you.

Err, no; i don't think nobody tries to change things within their scope. I just don't believe changing the attitudes country-wide is in scope of single person or even single lifespan.

And this belief comes precisely from history. Just see how much time and conscious world-wide effort it took to do something about apartheid and other nice equivalents we've had? This with much more advanced civilization, communication and whathaveyou. So pardon me if i don't buy that in Ferelden this just *snap* happens like that.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 décembre 2009 - 04:37 .

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Err, no; i don't think nobody tries to change things within their scope. I just don't believe changing the attitudes country-wide is in scope of single person or even single lifespan.

And this belief comes precisely from history. Just see how much time and conscious world-wide effort it took to do something apartheid and other nice equivalents we've had? This with much more advanced civilization, communication and whathaveyou. So pardon me if i don't buy that in Ferelden this just *snap* happens like that.

Man...if only somebody had gotten to Gandhi and Martin Luther King with that news.  Could have saved those guys a bunch of effort.

I'm sure in the face of opposition they'd have simply said "Okay" and gone to go do something else, something much less worthy of their time or passion.  I'm sure they'd have been happy with that.

Modifié par Recidiva, 23 décembre 2009 - 04:38 .

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Man...if only somebody had gotten to Gandhi and Martin Luther King with that news.  Could have saved those guys a bunch of effort.

Is this supposed to be agreement or disagreement? Because efforts started by these took something like 30-40 years or more to come to fruition, and that's in civilizations few hundred years more advanced than what Ferelden can show.

If it's as easy and takes nothing more but one person making the effort, you may ask yourself why it took us literally couple thousand years to arrive to this point where we have some examples to show; and that's with billions possible candidates to make these changes to pick from.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 décembre 2009 - 04:53 .

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Is this supposed to be agreement or disagreement? Because efforts started by these took something like 30-40 years or more to come to fruition, and that's in civilizations few hundred years more advanced than what Ferelden can show.

Vehement disagreement and I'm resorting to sarcasm to avoid repeating myself.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

Sialater wrote...

If she knew about the slavery, she's no better than her father.  If she didn't, she's too incompetent to lead.  Ferelden was a MESS before you finally remove her.  If she's such a wonderful ruler, why's the county in the same shape or worse than Orzammar?  A capable ruler would tell her father to sit down and shut up and execute Howe.

Because prior to Landsmeet, and after Ostegar (which takes place over a period of approximately 2 years), Loghain was ruling as regent, which meant he had effectively displaced his daughter as Monarch. He was ruling in her stead.

His whole civil war was to put himself on the throne, not his daughter. (Which is why she sides with you.)

Modifié par Zandilar, 23 décembre 2009 - 05:08 .

[VeeJayNaSsassin]

I have a Dream...



that one day, Alistair will rise up, be a man, and sleep w/ one of my female toons so i can get those 2 damn acheivments already.

[DariusKalera]

If we are looking for actual historical parallels, I would go with Abraham Lincoln and the American Civil War and the abolishment of slavery as the closest thing to what happens to Fereldan during a hardened Alistair's rule.

While Abe did abolish slavery, the underlying prejudices still existed, and in some cases still exist, even after 150 years.  That, and some enforced govenmental programs, actually caused more prejudices to arise.

Alistair freed the elves, but the underlying cultural prejudices would still remain for some people no matter what he would say or do.

Cultures can not, and do not, change overnight no matter how much we want them too.  They take time to adjust.  Try to force the change, and there is a backlash.

Another example of this is with the Pharaoh Ahkenaten.  He forced Egypt to switch from a polytheistic culture to one of monotheism.  This enforced change only lasted until his death at which point Egypt switched back and stayed polytheistic for another 1,500 years.

I think what I am trying to say is that, while one person may have a tremendous effect on a culture, it is almost impossible for a single individual to actually change it, atleast, permanently.

Also. for the record, the civil right movements that Gandhi and MLK Jr. championed and became leaders of were both started well before either of them were born.  Not to diminish thier achievements or the help that each gave to their respective movements, just staring a fact.

Modifié par DariusKalera, 23 décembre 2009 - 05:19 .

[tmp7704]

DariusKalera wrote...

While Abe did abolish slavery, the underlying prejudices still existed, and in some cases still exist, even after 150 years.  That, and some enforced govenmental programs, actually caused more prejudices to arise.

This is pretty much what i was getting at. Also, something to keep in mind would be how the (relatively) modern movements benefit greatly from being able to reach large parts of population through newspapers, radio and ultimately tv. Ferelden is simply... well, just not there in this regard. And that very likely hinders things, causing them progress even slower than our own snail pace.

[Zenocrate]

Consider, at the start of the game, that Loghain is universally exalted by the humans of Ferelden and what he says, is essentially law. And all he did was free those people from an occupying power.

Now consider that Alistair has not only saved the bacon of every man, woman, and child, but he helped the elves and the dwarves along the way,who probably didn't care so much about the Orlesians as the humans. Unless you killed the dalish camp, but you still have the city elves (werewolves do not count, they would rather be turned human in the first place, they owe you no real allegiance).

Universal acclaim and obedience happened with a commoner, regent. I see no reason it could not happen with a royal-blooded King who performed yet greater deeds. Call it another flaw in the people of Ferelden.



Seriously though, take this topic to another thread so the *good* storytellers can get the REAL work done in here =p now if only I was good.

[sagevallant]

Recidiva wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Err, no; i don't think nobody tries to change things within their scope. I just don't believe changing the attitudes country-wide is in scope of single person or even single lifespan.

And this belief comes precisely from history. Just see how much time and conscious world-wide effort it took to do something apartheid and other nice equivalents we've had? This with much more advanced civilization, communication and whathaveyou. So pardon me if i don't buy that in Ferelden this just *snap* happens like that.

Man...if only somebody had gotten to Gandhi and Martin Luther King with that news.  Could have saved those guys a bunch of effort.

I'm sure in the face of opposition they'd have simply said "Okay" and gone to go do something else, something much less worthy of their time or passion.  I'm sure they'd have been happy with that.

Fun fact: Ghandi temporarily ENDED wars between people who are still killing each other to this day by threatening to not eat until they stopped killing each other. Because no one wanted to be responsible for killing him.

[PatT2]

If history is any indicator, we don't learn from history.



Also, history supports the idea that most coups are successful when the army is behind the guy doing the coup. Any army that could walk out on the king without being completely demoralized, belonged to the guy who gave the order anyway, not the king. Successful coups are usually done by the one who has the army.

I thoroughly dislike Anora, and for all I know, she may be okay as a ruler on certain circumstances.... but.... no matter who it is, in 400 years there will be another blight, another civil war, another revolution, another failed empire. Blah blah blah.

I have a really hard time believing that mankind is able to evolve. We may grow in our technological understanding and knowledge, even exponentially so, but we seem to be unable to restrict such technology to be used for the benefit of the species...without people coming along and using the same for evil.



And the difference between hate and indifference is a much misunderstood difference.



The opposite of love is not hate. It is indifference.

If you hate, at least you still care.

It's not my observation. It was voiced by a well-written man who survived the extermination camps of ww2.

I'd rather someone care enough to hate me.

If folks are indifferent about slavery, well...you figure it out.

[Lauranis]

Zachriel wrote...

Zevran. . . Someday I'll get around to unlocking his romance for the achievement.  In the meantime, here's the song that goes through my head every time I talk to him with a male character:

www.youtube.com/watch

ROFL, I love Stephen Lynch

[Recidiva]

DariusKalera wrote...

If we are looking for actual historical parallels, I would go with Abraham Lincoln and the American Civil War and the abolishment of slavery as the closest thing to what happens to Fereldan during a hardened Alistair's rule.

While Abe did abolish slavery, the underlying prejudices still existed, and in some cases still exist, even after 150 years.  That, and some enforced govenmental programs, actually caused more prejudices to arise.

Alistair freed the elves, but the underlying cultural prejudices would still remain for some people no matter what he would say or do.

Cultures can not, and do not, change overnight no matter how much we want them too.  They take time to adjust.  Try to force the change, and there is a backlash.

Another example of this is with the Pharaoh Ahkenaten.  He forced Egypt to switch from a polytheistic culture to one of monotheism.  This enforced change only lasted until his death at which point Egypt switched back and stayed polytheistic for another 1,500 years.

I think what I am trying to say is that, while one person may have a tremendous effect on a culture, it is almost impossible for a single individual to actually change it, atleast, permanently.

Also. for the record, the civil right movements that Gandhi and MLK Jr. championed and became leaders of were both started well before either of them were born.  Not to diminish thier achievements or the help that each gave to their respective movements, just staring a fact.

Nothing to disagree with here.

In short, people do make a difference, attitudes matter, and Ferelden is in enough chaos to maybe want to try a new thing.  Radical political and social change is certainly possible after nearly being wiped off the map entirely.  Almost everyone is going to have to put in entirely new infrastructure as everything's pretty much destroyed anyway.

In a game sense, Al doesn't kill elves, Anora does.  So there's my reasoning.  I don't think it's that hard to
come up with several sociological reasons.

The dwarven thing has me stumped.  Can't buy in any way that Bhelen is good at anything ever, so that one will just have to remain a shrug.

And in the sense that change takes place over time, I think there are always people who know when something is entirely unfair and wrong in a social sense and are willing to act on it if people stopped...you know...killing them for disagreeing with injustice.

[Recidiva]

sagevallant wrote...

Fun fact: Ghandi temporarily ENDED wars between people who are still killing each other to this day by threatening to not eat until they stopped killing each other. Because no one wanted to be responsible for killing him.

Well, people are still going to kill each other.  Can't stop that.  Can stop that it's endorsed by and enforced by the state.  Sometimes.

[Recidiva]

PatT2 wrote...

If history is any indicator, we don't learn from history.

Also, history supports the idea that most coups are successful when the army is behind the guy doing the coup. Any army that could walk out on the king without being completely demoralized, belonged to the guy who gave the order anyway, not the king. Successful coups are usually done by the one who has the army.
I thoroughly dislike Anora, and for all I know, she may be okay as a ruler on certain circumstances.... but.... no matter who it is, in 400 years there will be another blight, another civil war, another revolution, another failed empire. Blah blah blah.
I have a really hard time believing that mankind is able to evolve. We may grow in our technological understanding and knowledge, even exponentially so, but we seem to be unable to restrict such technology to be used for the benefit of the species...without people coming along and using the same for evil.

And the difference between hate and indifference is a much misunderstood difference.

The opposite of love is not hate. It is indifference.
If you hate, at least you still care.
It's not my observation. It was voiced by a well-written man who survived the extermination camps of ww2.
I'd rather someone care enough to hate me.
If folks are indifferent about slavery, well...you figure it out.

Well, I try to learn from history.  And in general, history does progress and make gains.  Or else I'd be chattel that got stoned whenever I tried to talk to a man at all.  (With rocks, not drugs.)  I am aware that even having been born 200 years ago or so I'd have died chained to the wall of an insane asylum.  Best case scenario.  There'd be no medicine, no refrigeration, no electricity.  No voting rights for citizens, much less women.  Sure, there's lots of work to do, but lots and lots has been done and to dismiss that as irrelevant sorta contradicts the fact that human nature has horrible aspects, but also has some rather amazing ones.

Yay not chattel!

Lots of folks have done lots of worlk to make civilization and society move forward.  An individual can lead it, but it would never work if people didn't recognize the need for it.  It's both more complicated than it's being presented, and less.

People consist of many different attitudes and motivations.  Leadership influences those in a certain direction. 

And getting people to see the worst in themselves isn't hard.  Getting them to see the best in themselves takes skill and creative approaches to old problems.

I agree on indifference being bad, but hate sucks too.  It's not the opposite of love in emotional scope.  It is however a horrible thing. 

Love invests a person with admiration and the need to protect and the desire to have someone healthy and close.  Hate is the opposite in the manner that it inspires derision and the desire to destroy and wanting to make someone go away.

As love invests someone with the willingness to forgive, hatred invests someone with the willingness to dehumanize and destroy.  Not good.

Modifié par Recidiva, 23 décembre 2009 - 01:23 .

[tmp7704]

Zenocrate wrote...

Consider, at the start of the game, that Loghain is universally exalted by the humans of Ferelden and what he says, is essentially law. And all he did was free those people from an occupying power.

Consider there's no evidence in game to back up this claim. (what does get shown is he definitely meets lot of disobedience and plain open war as soon as he tries to establish himself as regent) And also, the occupation by Orlais lasted 80 years while the Blight ended in maybe one. Ironically, the occupation is likely to be a much more dire experience in minds of the population.

And finally, consider one isn't going to stop thinking about these elves as knife-ears and infreriors just because the exalted leader one day tells so, not when they've been conditioned into this way of thinking for their entire life. One may stop expressing that opinion in public (more so if there's a penalty attached) ... but actual thinking and the associated attitudes, that takes much more to change; much more time most of all.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

In a game sense, Al doesn't kill elves, Anora does.

Could we please stick to the facts or at least not make up ones? The game says nothing about Anora actually killing elves. Excatly what happens as the "hard crack-down on the rioters" is purely the players' conjecture, coloured by their opinion on the character. Just like exactly what happens during the enlightened rule of Alistair of which there's no details whatsoever.

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Could we please stick to the facts or at least not make up ones? The game says nothing about Anora actually killing elves. Excatly what happens as the "hard crack-down on the rioters" is purely the players' conjecture, coloured by their opinion on the character. Just like exactly what happens during the enlightened rule of Alistair of which there's no details whatsoever.

It's ALL conjecture.

I don't mind squabbling about a game and interpretation and roleplay and historical references, but when the word "fact" comes in, I've got to back away slowly.  Giggling.

[Sialater]

Zandilar wrote...

Heya,

Sialater wrote...

If she knew about the slavery, she's no better than her father.  If she didn't, she's too incompetent to lead.  Ferelden was a MESS before you finally remove her.  If she's such a wonderful ruler, why's the county in the same shape or worse than Orzammar?  A capable ruler would tell her father to sit down and shut up and execute Howe.

Because prior to Landsmeet, and after Ostegar (which takes place over a period of approximately 2 years), Loghain was ruling as regent, which meant he had effectively displaced his daughter as Monarch. He was ruling in her stead.

His whole civil war was to put himself on the throne, not his daughter. (Which is why she sides with you.)

So, uh... she wasn't weak to have allowed this to happen?  Sorry, daddy, my sand box.  Off with your head.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

It's ALL conjecture.

I don't mind squabbling about a game and interpretation and roleplay and historical references, but when the word "fact" comes in, I've got to back away slowly.  Giggling.

Meh; a "fact" as far as the information presented by the game is concerned if we really have to split hair. I.e. something that can be verified as opposed to something that cannot. Like you know, the Aeducans being ruling dynasty in Orzammar for example, vs the Aeducans being notorious lyrium addicts. Or Anora building a statue to honour her father vs Anora doing unspeakable things to elves.

If you have another word as short as "fact", similarly well understood and also allowing to easily discern between these two categories of "conjecture", i'll gladly use it instead.

[Recidiva]

Sialater wrote...

So, uh... she wasn't weak to have allowed this to happen?  Sorry, daddy, my sand box.  Off with your head.

Hell, if I were Anora I would have been planning to assassinate Loghain and make sure someone stakes Howe down in the Alienage in the middle of the night and be shocked at what happened to the poor man in the morning.  If his remains are found or can be identified.   From the second after Bann Teagan asked me if my father was looking out for my husband.  Clearly everyone in line for the throne (and anybody sitting on it) is fair game.

Then to watch Howe toady his way through and watching Loghain just sigh and do the royal brush off and "whatever."

It was hard for me to buy by the end of the game, watching any of those cutscenes, that Anora was anything but a complete fluff-headed idiot.  Then to find out she's supposed to be a canny, intelligent leader?  What the hell?

Sure, if canny and intelligent means - I'm ignorant of what goes on in my kingdom.  There's a military coup and I'm irrelevant and ignored and stonewalled by my "general" who also probably put me on the throne in the first place.

My conclusion?  Insanity runs in the family.

Modifié par Recidiva, 23 décembre 2009 - 02:45 .

[tigrina]

Well, you're doing something wrong if there is a food shortage only in the alienage to begin with. If you also break down hard a riot, you can't convince me there isn't a slaughter right up there at that point.

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Meh; a "fact" as far as the information presented by the game is concerned if we really have to split hair. I.e. something that can be verified as opposed to something that cannot. Like you know, the Aeducans being ruling dynasty in Orzammar for example, vs the Aeducans being notorious lyrium addicts. Or Anora building a statue to honour her father vs Anora doing unspeakable things to elves.

If you have another word as short as "fact", similarly well understood and also allowing to easily discern between these two categories of "conjecture", i'll gladly use it instead.

Seriously, it's not the subject, I've just exhausted my creativity in saying the same thing different ways.  I'm cool and your interpretation is entirely fine.  I have no problem with it, it's your game, you do what you do.  That's good.

I'm not going to step over any line and tell you what's "true" - this really is about opinion, and if I've given the impression mine matters more than yours, that wasn't intended.  I just like to debate, but I don't like reruns.

[Sialater]

Recidiva wrote...

Sialater wrote...

So, uh... she wasn't weak to have allowed this to happen?  Sorry, daddy, my sand box.  Off with your head.

Hell, if I were Anora I would have been planning to assassinate Loghain and make sure someone stakes Howe down in the Alienage in the middle of the night and be shocked at what happened to the poor man in the morning.  If his remains are found or can be identified.   From the second after Bann Teagan asked me if my father was looking out for my husband.  Clearly everyone in line for the throne (and anybody sitting on it) is fair game.

Then to watch Howe toady his way through and watching Loghain just sigh and do the royal brush off and "whatever."

It was hard for me to buy by the end of the game, watching any of those cutscenes, that Anora was anything but a complete fluff-headed idiot.  Then to find out she's supposed to be a canny, intelligent leader?  What the hell?

Sure, if canny and intelligent means - I'm ignorant of what goes on in my kingdom.  There's a military coup and I'm irrelevant and ignored and stonewalled by my "general" who also probably put me on the throne in the first place.

My conclusion?  Insanity runs in the family.

Yeah... canny intelligent leader means being daddy's little girl, apparently.  If I'm queen, the country comes before my father and his ambitions.  "Screw this regent crap, dad.  I'm the Queen Regnant, get off my chair and give me my hat back."  So yeah, Hardened Alistair, alone or with advisors is better.  Not even counting the elves.  Anora let it all go to crap so as to appease her father.  There's no second chances for that kind of incompetence.

[Recidiva]

Sialater wrote...

Yeah... canny intelligent leader means being daddy's little girl, apparently.  If I'm queen, the country comes before my father and his ambitions.  "Screw this regent crap, dad.  I'm the Queen Regnant, get off my chair and give me my hat back."  So yeah, Hardened Alistair, alone or with advisors is better.  Not even counting the elves.  Anora let it all go to crap so as to appease her father.  There's no second chances for that kind of incompetence.

Denerim is still entirely overrun by bandits that you have to clear out.  How can you command a nation if you can't get order in your own home town?  Or if you know nothing about it, rely on "advisors" to tell you everything's okay and nothing needs to be done.  Or this is the way things are, don't rock the boat or you're next.

If I'd walked into Denerim and it was a shining example of good infrastructure, order and judicious policies applied with an even hand, or any hand at all other than "Chaos is good!" I might have some respect for her leadership.  Or Cailan's for that matter.

The guard is accustomed to doing nothing due to the idea that noble families are expected to collect a paycheck and take no personal risk.  Anora is a noble. 

Putting a commoner on the throne who had to work to make his way in the world sounds like a good solution to that sort of entitled uselessness.