456 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain_Brian]

bwFex wrote...

While I appreciate the effort of what you're doing here, I feel like you're representing our discontent poorly in a number of ways.

First, your bitterness over this situation makes us all look unreasonable. We have a legitimate, reasonable purpose for our indignation, and we don't need to resort to name-calling or "haha, I told you so!" to prove our point.

Secondly, this poll seems to be spoonfeeding all the "right" answers to the audience.

Finally, this poll fails to address most of the real concerns. It focuses far too much on the destruction of the relays, Shepard's death, and the absurdness of the Normandy scene. Don't get me wrong: those are all very annoying things that need to be dealt with. But your polling questions ignore all of the real, underlying issues: the fact that our choices are invalidated, that we are left with more questions and worries than answers and hope, that the star-child scene doesn't fit with the game at all.

Also, almost every single question here suffers from one of two problems:

1) It lays out the options in such a way that you simply cannot pick anything but the option that is obviously best. Of course everyone is going to take the sugary candy over the stinky vegetables. Of course everyone wants to see a LI epilogue instead of not seeing it. These are obvious questions with obvious answers, and polling an audience on them serves very little purpose.

2) The responses available are far too specific, rely on too many assumptions, and also leave out options that you hadn't considered. This is especially true for questions like #14, #4, #3, and your new final question.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think this poll is guided and not very useful. It doesn't tell Bioware anything surprising or useful.

For one thing, I was the one who made the polls, not this topic's creator.

I worded the polls to be a neutral as possible.  I used the defacto standard in many of the polls where you make a statement and have "strongly aggree, agree, indifferent, ect..." options.  This was not to "guide" the poll a certain way, this was to make sure each poll was consistant and sure people understood how to vote.  If they disagreed, then they would disagree.  Period.

That being said, of COURSE we all knew the answers to many of these questions, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be asked.  Their point is to prove what we all know, and to try to show the developers where to focus their efforts.

As far as things being too specific on some of the polls, that was deliberate because like you said, if you give people the "I WANT EVERYTHING" option, then THEY WILL PICK IT EVERYTIME. 

That being said, I DID NOT try to word these with a specific goal in mind.  Take the indoctrination option in Q14, it is the most popular YET I DON'T LIKE THE THEORY.

[nrcrane]

I think most people just want multiple endings that vary greatly, and a "happy" ending would be one of those possibilities. I think if a poll was created where people could vote on having a happy ending, and a sad ending, most people would want both.

Having different possible endings is what people expected based on the previous Mass Effect games, and from what the developers were saying pre-release.

[Noatz]

Alright, since you have tried to use your poll results to draw a twisted conclusion this calls for an emergency debunking service.

The DLC ending, in general, should deliver the following experience:


(I know everyone wants an "All of the above" option for this poll, but I needed at least ONE of these polls to be polarizing and show just exactly what is MOST important to most people. Ideally they would do them all, but just vote to show where you'd like them to focus their efforts.)

Mega Happy Ending (Shepard survives, Normandy stays, Relays Stay, ONLY Reapers Dead, romantic epilogue with LI and crew, no starchild, no stargazer)
51%(1446 votes)

Bolt-On Romance Reuniting (Existing endings, but LI stayed on earth and finds Shepard)
8%(234 votes)

Bolt-On Crew Reuniting (Existing endings, but crew stayed on earth and finds Shepard)
4%(121 votes)

Bolt-On Conventional (Shep rejects "Star Child", reapers are eventually destroyed with HEAVY losses using the allied fleet, Shep survives to reunite with crew)
30%(844 votes)

Leave As Is (Only explain existing plotholes like why Joker leaving earth)
3%(72 votes)

Other (List Below In Comments, don't choose this if you aren't going to comment!)
4%(123 votes)

This is the main poll you are using to peddle your "happy ending" rubbish.

The trap you set up (though it could be just bad poll design) was providing a set of arbitrary options you concocted that were deliberately unsatisfactory in that they do not address most of the logic fails or thematic disconnects of the ending. The only solution you offer that does is this is the "mega happy ending" option, through removing the star child. The one other option that goes somewhat toward the same direction, the so called "bolt on conventional" rather unsurprisingly has the second highest vote count. This is not an accident. Your poll options are badly concieved and/or designed specifically to corral votes into the conclusion you desired.

The only acceptable option for me when I looked at this poll was to use the "other" option and leave a comment. Your insistence that people leave a comment (in itself not a bad thing) indicates you must have either a. known would discourage people from using that option or b. failed to account for such discouragement. Either way, considering the bias inherent in your other options, this poll fails to convey any meaningful sentiment on why people wish the ending changed.

Modifié par Noatz, 20 mars 2012 - 06:43 .

[earthonline]

 For reference, here is a list of the current endings:
ME3 Endings List

[Timstuff]

Golferguy758 wrote...

I didn't know that reuniting with your li and crew all of a sudden undid the trillions of credits in damage. The billions of lost lives, the loss of several of your closest friends.

even if shepard won and met up with his crew the ending will still be bitter sweet for the aforementioned reasons

The sad fact of the matter is that when it comes to crunch time and budget cuts, the ending is usually the first thing to get sacrificed since a lot of people don't bother beating the games they buy, and that's why so many games have lazy / abrupt / sucky endings. In the case of ME3 I wonder if it has something to do with the multiplayer mode, which in turn I wonder if it was added for the sake of being able to put an online pass in the game, but whatever the reason I don't think that Bioware had the money to do the ending as originally planned. Does that mean the original concepts for the ending were good? Not necessarily-- it's clear that they had at least one ending planned where all the Mass Relays are destroyed or else they wouldn't have bothered rendering cinematics for it, however the ending(s) might have at least been a little less disappointing had they had the resources necessary to do it the way they had planned.

Bioware is in a unique position right now though-- they have the opportunity to fix the ending and give the fans the wide range of choices and possible outcomes that fans had been expecting to have in the game through DLC. It will cost us an extra chunk of change, but I think most of us are more concerned with getting a satasfying conclusion to this wonderful trilogy than we are about getting "nickle and dimed" for new content. It's not going to pay for itself, and I would rather pay more money to ensure we get a good product than I would to demand we get it for free and then get nothing.

[jules_vern18]

Don't lose faith!  Although there are a lot of people who do want a happy ending, they've been pretty clear that that's not the only
ending they want.  I think what fans are generally hoping is for us to
be able to shape the ending by the way we play, just like we did in
previous games.  I don't think I would play to get a happy ending, but we should be able to, just as we should
be able to get a sacrifice ending (which is what I would prefer) or a
total-loss ending.  The problems for most people are that the endings
(1) don't make sense and (2) don't have enough variation.  Even fans
that want a happy ending to be an option wouldn't want their
ending forced on everybody else...that's exactly the kind of thing that
has us all upset in the first place.

tl;dr:  Some people want a happy ending.  It doesn't mean they want that to be the only ending.

[Antigone2283]

TL;DR all the comments.

Poll is flawed, conclusions are flawed, analysis is rendered obsolete.

[Barbie__Boy]

even if all of the haters would prefer a "happy" ending it changes nothing
I myself usally prefer happy and yet my favorite gaming series pretty much always have a bittersweet one, when a main character survives a game in the series he can laugh himself lucky

the point is that while those game might have bittersweet endings it NEVER feels forced and the ending doesn't overall suck like ME3
try to remeber the main argument of WHY we want change ending has always been because it makes no sense, full of plotholes and there is no closure
we might prefer a ending where shepard survives but we can accept him dying if it doesn't feel forced like now

[mebtru]

xsdob wrote...

This is the part where I talk about the results, so don't read it if you want to find out for yourself.


52% of the polled, that's the number one spot, voted for the "Mega Happy Ending (Shepard survives, Normandy stays, Relays Stay, ONLY Reapers Dead, romantic epilogue with LI and crew, no starchild, no
stargazer)" 



29%, second place, voted for the "Bolt-On Conventional (Shep rejects "Star Child", reapers are eventually destroyed with HEAVY losses using the allied fleet, Shep survives to reunite with crew)"

Tied for number 4 with 4% of the vote is "Bolt-On Crew Reuniting (Existing endings, but crew stayed on earth and finds Shepard)"

The mega happy ending has a 23% lead, that is a sad reflection if people are willing to take a B.S. ending in which no loses for our side occur in the battle head on against the reapers forces, than deal with having the starchild in it but still be able to reject him.

For all of you who are like "I don't care if my shepard had to sacrifice himself or not, it's just the way he does it that's wrong." 67% strongly agree that "It is important that the DLC allows shepard to live and reunite with his squad and love interest"., the closest second of this group is 19% for just regular agree...so 84% of the people who want a new ending are mad that shepard dies, I really don't get that, espically since most of the people who have posted about the endings neve bring it up as a problem.

62% prefer the indoctrination theory that the endings were all in shepards head and that you have to play through the entire ending sequence a second time to get the correct ending, to being able to activate the crucible or have expanded diolouge with the starchild, or just telling hackett to fight the reapers conventionally and skp the starchild all together, or a combination of both.

This group, when combined, makes up about 34%, which is 28% less than the indoctrination theory. So, people would rather see their headcannon make it to the full screen and have an unnesisary, roundabout way of getting to the endings and a game mechanic that isn't neccisay,since shepard already tried to be indoctrinated by the illusive man and fought him off using the reputation meter, than see an actually fixed ending without the indoctrination theory. wow, just wow.

EDIT AGAIN: 

I apologies if anyone found the way I worded my post to be offensive or off putting, but the results I saw were really disheartending and made me question whether the hold the line movement was really even worth supporting anymore.

It's the fact that this poll shows that the vast majority really does want a "dunshine and rainnbows" ending, that one of the biggest insults to the movement to have another ending is correct, with proof of such, that has really stuck hard. I'm not one of the people who hate the endings, I actually feel a somewhat emotional satisfaction from having my shepard's story come to an end, and him being at peace with the choice. But even so, to have what I considered the fringe of both sides being shown to be the majority all along, and the reasonable crowd being the fringe, is a shocker.

Anyway, the person who made these polls has one more question to upload, and it seems to be one with more options and a better wording so that people don't just vote for it because of the word "no starchild" in it, so here's hoping that that''s why the polls look the way they do.

Its a fail attempt to Hurt the movement and the people trying to get a ending without plotholes and where your choices matter.

In that poll the author did not ask about how our endings should affect the ending.

the question are those
It is important that the DLC allows the POSSIBILITY for shepard to live and reunite with his squad and love interest:
It is important that the DLC allows the POSSIBILITY for the player to bypass the "star child" catalyst scene altogether:
If the "star child" catalyst scene is bypassed, it is MOST important for the reaper threat to be resolved by:
If the "star child" catalyst scene is kept, it is MOST important to:
It is important that the DLC allows the POSSIBILITY for the mass relay system to stay intact:
It is important that the DLC allows the player to prevent the "Normandy
Crash Scene" from happening, with the Normandy staying at Earth:

So the people voted for the POSSIBILITY of having a happy ending, there is no question about if sheppard MUST die or not, if you MUST lose your li,crew, normandy.

Its like asking, do you like ice cream?,  and then complaining about how people did not vote for a lemon.

Modifié par mebtru, 20 mars 2012 - 06:52 .

[Timstuff]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Don't lose faith!  Although there are a lot of people who do want a happy ending, they've been pretty clear that that's not the only
ending they want.  I think what fans are generally hoping is for us to
be able to shape the ending by the way we play, just like we did in
previous games.  I don't think I would play to get a happy ending, but we should be able to, just as we should
be able to get a sacrifice ending (which is what I would prefer) or a
total-loss ending.  The problems for most people are that the endings
(1) don't make sense and (2) don't have enough variation.  Even fans
that want a happy ending to be an option wouldn't want their
ending forced on everybody else...that's exactly the kind of thing that
has us all upset in the first place.

tl;dr:  Some people want a happy ending.  It doesn't mean they want that to be the only ending.

Exactly-- it's all about having choices, and it always has been. People are mad that we're currently shoehorned into one ending that comes in 3 refreshing fruit flavors, instead of getting actual alternate endings based on how we played the game up to that point. People who want a sad ending where Shepard sacrifices himself should be able to get it, just like in Mass Effect 2, and the people who want a more uplifting ending where he survives and helps rebuild the world should be able to get that too. The goal of the DLC should be to accomodate the wide array of preferences for how the game should end, and while obviously they can't please everyone, it's at leat possible to please most of us.

[kyban]

I think you're (the OP) reading into it wrong. He says the word POSSIBLY in caps, as a possible outcome...... a possible outcome...

It did not ask "Do you want Shepard to live in all endings and to be reunited with the crew."

All this does is emphasize what has already been stated many times, and that is: We Want Choice. Period.

[Aggressor01]

nrcrane wrote...

I think most people just want multiple endings that vary greatly, and a "happy" ending would be one of those possibilities. I think if a poll was created where people could vote on having a happy ending, and a sad ending, most people would want both.

Having different possible endings is what people expected based on the previous Mass Effect games, and from what the developers were saying pre-release.

Spot on m8!  I agree 100%

[carnage4u]

Lecram Nella wrote...

I see. people apparently want a 'magical happy rainbowland' ending <.<

instead of magic rainbow ending we have now..  well i suppose it takes more then 3 colors for a rainbow..

[Xivai]

Antigone2283 wrote...

TL;DR all the comments.

Poll is flawed, conclusions are flawed, analysis is rendered obsolete.

This.

[Captain_Brian]

Noatz wrote...

Alright, since you have tried to use your poll results to draw a twisted conclusion this calls for an emergency debunking service.

The DLC ending, in general, should deliver the following experience:


(I know everyone wants an "All of the above" option for this poll, but I needed at least ONE of these polls to be polarizing and show just exactly what is MOST important to most people. Ideally they would do them all, but just vote to show where you'd like them to focus their efforts.)

Mega Happy Ending (Shepard survives, Normandy stays, Relays Stay, ONLY Reapers Dead, romantic epilogue with LI and crew, no starchild, no stargazer)
51%(1446 votes)

Bolt-On Romance Reuniting (Existing endings, but LI stayed on earth and finds Shepard)
8%(234 votes)

Bolt-On Crew Reuniting (Existing endings, but crew stayed on earth and finds Shepard)
4%(121 votes)

Bolt-On Conventional (Shep rejects "Star Child", reapers are eventually destroyed with HEAVY losses using the allied fleet, Shep survives to reunite with crew)
30%(844 votes)

Leave As Is (Only explain existing plotholes like why Joker leaving earth)
3%(72 votes)

Other (List Below In Comments, don't choose this if you aren't going to comment!)
4%(123 votes)

This is the main poll you are using to peddle your "happy ending" rubbish.

The trap you set up (though it could be just bad poll design) was providing a set of arbitrary options you concocted that were deliberately unsatisfactory in that they do not address most of the logic fails or thematic disconnects of the ending. The only solution you offer that does is this is the "mega happy ending" option, through removing the star child. The one other option that goes somewhat toward the same direction, the so called "bolt on conventional" rather unsurprisingly has the second highest vote count. This is not an accident. Your poll options are badly concieved and/or designed specifically to corral votes into the conclusion you desired.

The only acceptable option for me when I looked at this poll was to use the "other" option and leave a comment. Your insistence that people leave a comment (in itself not a bad thing) indicates you must have either a. known would discourage people from using that option or b. failed to account for such discouragement. Either way, considering the bias inherent in your other options, this poll fails to convey any meaningful sentiment on why people wish the ending changed.

The reason I had the "other" option is because I wanted to account for any OTHER options in FUTURE polls.  I WANTED to hear what other ideas people had.  Hell, I created a new topic just for Q16 so I could get feedback before I posted it.  But guess what?  Nobody replied and the thread died off.   I can't predict every possible thing people want, but it seems people just like to criticize rather than contribute.

I see now that this poll (Q14) was poorly designed because it did not fully spell things out for people.  People seem to be seeing bais either because of this topic creator's initial post or because there wasn't enough descriptions in the polls to explain to people the reason for them.  (I relied on my forum post for a lot of that, I didn't realize people would be coming in from other places to vote.)

However either way, the point that has become clear through all this is that everyone wants OPTIONS, and just most prioritize a happy ending as the option they MOST want.

[Captain_Brian]

Xivai wrote...

Antigone2283 wrote...

TL;DR all the comments.

Poll is flawed, conclusions are flawed, analysis is rendered obsolete.

This.

Then make a better poll or make an acutal suggestion on what the options and questions should be.

[MustacheManatee]

I think you misunderstand due to the poor wording of that poll. It's not that we want a perfect, happy ending. We just want to have the OPTION to get that ending. That's what ME has always been about. Shaping your own narrative arc.

[Versus Omnibus]

This should be used to help Bioware decide on not just one, but multiple endings including their "artistic vision" people seem to love so much.

[Dranks]

If there's going to be a terrible everyone dies ending there should be a happy everyone lives ending. And more endings in between.

OPTIONS

[Timstuff]

 I think the reason why people are hesitant to endorse the fans asking for a happier ending is because some of these idiot gaming "journalists" have been using that as ammunition when they try to oversimplify the issue and attack us. Those **** rockets on the DTOID show said that we're a bunch of whiners who want a "happy disney ending" and somehow that de-legitimizes people who actually do want a happy ending to be an option? That's absurd. Why should our campaign revolve around the criticism of morons like Colin Moriarty, Max Scovill or Tara Long? They have no respect for us at all, so why should we care what their arguments against us are when all of their arguments against us are so petty? If people want the POSSIBILITY of a happier ending, there's nothing wrong with that as long as no-one get shoehorned into it like they did with the current ending.

[JulienJaden]

Those who say there should only be a bittersweet ending are wrong. Simple as that.

The games about choices and consequences, as has been said time and time again. It's about playing the game your way, experiencing the story your way, creating the hero you want. If at the end of your hero's story, he dies, that's up to you. If my hero is supposed to survive and be happy for years to come, then that's my decision alone.
Nobody has a right to tell me that my story has to end the same way their story ends.

BioWare should offer us freedom of choice and a wide variety of endings so that everyone can be happy. They just have to make them make sense, every single one of them, including the happy endings.
That means: WITHOUT the use of Space Magic to make it  work.
And that is well within their capabilities. They have excellent writers. Put them to work. And if they don't know how to pull it off, ask the writers out there who played the game. Most, including me, would give you input and suggestions in a heartbeat.

Modifié par JulienJaden, 20 mars 2012 - 07:01 .

[Kilshrek]

Look, the way your poll was worded was surely to induce a bias towards certain elements.

Edit your OP to provide a full breakdown of the percentages on your questions and make it look a little more formal, as you seemed to have intended to do in the first place.

Presenting your data in this manner, plus opinions, isn't really on.

Just present the data, and let it speak for itself, opinions can come after everything has been laid out.

[The Big Palooka]

Miekkas wrote...

SPOILERS

Actually, they still failed to hit the nail on the head, and it has been demonstrated over and over again as to why. Read this article that point for point, shows why the entire Starchild situation and ending in nonsense:
https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true

People at this point are so disgusted with the starchild's concept that some want him scrapped entirely.

Let's address the fact that the current endings do not follow the prevalent theme of the series: the perseverance of Shepard and his team to overcome impossible odds and live to fight another day. They have built their legendary careers around defying authority and doing what people said no one could do, and they came out alive after doing it as icing on the cake. The ending of the game completely disregards this theme, which is why so many players are upset. They have come to expect a Shepard who is larger than life, a being who we can all look to as a *living* example of a hero. Shepard went from being a living hero throughout the entire series who lives depending on how much effort you put into the game even into the majority the third game until the last ten minutes where Bioware decided to change Shepard into a mindless drone who does as he is told instead of a being of defying authority. He is not even a tragic hero in the ending, which some people could have accepted. He is a pawn who simply gives in because some god starchild *says* he is right.

Why do "bashers" continue to think that by players asking for a "happy ending", they are asking for something out of a Disney movie? Consider the following:

1. Billions are dead by the end of the game regardless of Shepard's actions because the Reapers.
2. Earth, Palaven, and Thessia have all been essentially burned to the ground.
3. You have lost several current or former team members by the end of the game, regardless of your actions.
4. There are numerous hints that Shepard is suffering severe emotional and mental stress to the point of PTSD such the dream sequences, and Joker mentioning that EDI has detected Shepard's stress levels are higher than when he/she fought during the Skylian Blitz. Characters like Garrus, Joker, Ashley, Kaiden, and other characters all mention they don't know what has happened to their families. Liara's entire life spent studying the Protheans is completely uprooted by the appearance of Javik and discovery of Thessia. She feels like her entire life in the study has been wasted.

Regardless if the Reapers are destroyed, the relays are left intact, and Shepard lives to reunite with his surviving team, the end is at BEST bittersweet. Shepard and the entire Galaxy has suffered and sacrificed a lot to defeat the Reapers, and now they have to live each day while rebuilding what little they have left with the knowledge of EVERYTHING they have lost. There is no victory is war. There is only those who are left to pick up the pieces and bury the dead. Bashers cheapen the impact of the points I have made like they do not matter, but they do very much so. Talk to soldiers how they feel about coming home alive with friends who have died overseas and get back to me about the "whiny happy ending" nonsense because it is darn insulting to me. Happy endings are not always rainbows and bunnies. Sometimes they are just about living to see another day to honor those who we have lost and living with what has been lost for the rest of our lives. There is strength and meaning to be found in a man or woman who lives to see another day after losing so much and walks away with the determination to become a better person, to appreciate everything they still have whether that be friends or lovers or simply being alive. We should not cheapen the sacrifices of the lost by saying a soldier must die in having any deep meaning.

SPOILERS

Was going to post my own thoughts, but it's not necessary, because these are them.  Excellently said.

[Reiella]

Lecram Nella wrote...

I see. people apparently want a 'magical happy rainbowland' ending <.<

Well, a plurality want it.  It may not be fair to say the lack of happy ending is why they're discontent.  Of course, it's far harder to actually give a real reason why they are discontent, but simply signs of their discontent [and elements that they 'nitpick' because of their discontent].

Just because it's what they say they want, it doesn't mean they would be discontent if they don't get it.  Of couse, that type of study is far harder to do.

[Jarcander]

Couldn't finish the poll. It didn't offer the indoctrinated ending theory, which makes most sense to me ever since I laid my eyes on it.