456 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandax]

goose2989 wrote...

A happy ending after what Shepard and company have gone through would be a real "bittersweet" ending. We've seen Mordin, Legion, and Thane die, not to mention other squadmates can die. Billions of people across the galaxy are likely dead, and Earth, Palaven, Thessia, and numerous other planets are in chaos. I think the galaxy has suffered enough without a Galactic Dark Age on top of it

Space magic did so those people didn't die. If Shepard didn't die; nobody dies.

[Joykilledme]

Miekkas wrote...

SPOILERS

Actually, they still failed to hit the nail on the head, and it has been demonstrated over and over again as to why. Read this article that point for point, shows why the entire Starchild situation and ending in nonsense:
https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true

People at this point are so disgusted with the starchild's concept that some want him scrapped entirely.

Let's address the fact that the current endings do not follow the prevalent theme of the series: the perseverance of Shepard and his team to overcome impossible odds and live to fight another day. They have built their legendary careers around defying authority and doing what people said no one could do, and they came out alive after doing it as icing on the cake. The ending of the game completely disregards this theme, which is why so many players are upset. They have come to expect a Shepard who is larger than life, a being who we can all look to as a *living* example of a hero. Shepard went from being a living hero throughout the entire series who lives depending on how much effort you put into the game even into the majority the third game until the last ten minutes where Bioware decided to change Shepard into a mindless drone who does as he is told instead of a being of defying authority. He is not even a tragic hero in the ending, which some people could have accepted. He is a pawn who simply gives in because some god starchild *says* he is right.

Why do "bashers" continue to think that by players asking for a "happy ending", they are asking for something out of a Disney movie? Consider the following:

1. Billions are dead by the end of the game regardless of Shepard's actions because the Reapers.
2. Earth, Palaven, and Thessia have all been essentially burned to the ground.
3. You have lost several current or former team members by the end of the game, regardless of your actions.
4. There are numerous hints that Shepard is suffering severe emotional and mental stress to the point of PTSD such the dream sequences, and Joker mentioning that EDI has detected Shepard's stress levels are higher than when he/she fought during the Skylian Blitz. Characters like Garrus, Joker, Ashley, Kaiden, and other characters all mention they don't know what has happened to their families. Liara's entire life spent studying the Protheans is completely uprooted by the appearance of Javik and discovery of Thessia. She feels like her entire life in the study has been wasted.

Regardless if the Reapers are destroyed, the relays are left intact, and Shepard lives to reunite with his surviving team, the end is at BEST bittersweet. Shepard and the entire Galaxy has suffered and sacrificed a lot to defeat the Reapers, and now they have to live each day while rebuilding what little they have left with the knowledge of EVERYTHING they have lost. There is no victory is war. There is only those who are left to pick up the pieces and bury the dead. Bashers cheapen the impact of the points I have made like they do not matter, but they do very much so. Talk to soldiers how they feel about coming home alive with friends who have died overseas and get back to me about the "whiny happy ending" nonsense because it is darn insulting to me. Happy endings are not always rainbows and bunnies. Sometimes they are just about living to see another day to honor those who we have lost and living with what has been lost for the rest of our lives. There is strength and meaning to be found in a man or woman who lives to see another day after losing so much and walks away with the determination to become a better person, to appreciate everything they still have whether that be friends or lovers or simply being alive. We should not cheapen the sacrifices of the lost by saying a soldier must die in having any deep meaning.

SPOILERS

AFreakingmen!

Thank you thank you!!! I doubt if OP has anything to say to this argument. And so Freaking what if we want a happy ending?... You calling US elitest jerks being the MAJORITY ?... If that's the case there must be a pretty damn good reason the majority of us feel that way. You have the nerve to tell us we are wrong?

[Captain_Brian]

Noatz wrote...

Captain_Brian wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Alright, since you have tried to use your poll results to draw a twisted conclusion this calls for an emergency debunking service.

The DLC ending, in general, should deliver the following experience:


(I know everyone wants an "All of the above" option for this poll, but I needed at least ONE of these polls to be polarizing and show just exactly what is MOST important to most people. Ideally they would do them all, but just vote to show where you'd like them to focus their efforts.)

Mega Happy Ending (Shepard survives, Normandy stays, Relays Stay, ONLY Reapers Dead, romantic epilogue with LI and crew, no starchild, no stargazer)
51%(1446 votes)

Bolt-On Romance Reuniting (Existing endings, but LI stayed on earth and finds Shepard)
8%(234 votes)

Bolt-On Crew Reuniting (Existing endings, but crew stayed on earth and finds Shepard)
4%(121 votes)

Bolt-On Conventional (Shep rejects "Star Child", reapers are eventually destroyed with HEAVY losses using the allied fleet, Shep survives to reunite with crew)
30%(844 votes)

Leave As Is (Only explain existing plotholes like why Joker leaving earth)
3%(72 votes)

Other (List Below In Comments, don't choose this if you aren't going to comment!)
4%(123 votes)

This is the main poll you are using to peddle your "happy ending" rubbish.

The trap you set up (though it could be just bad poll design) was providing a set of arbitrary options you concocted that were deliberately unsatisfactory in that they do not address most of the logic fails or thematic disconnects of the ending. The only solution you offer that does is this is the "mega happy ending" option, through removing the star child. The one other option that goes somewhat toward the same direction, the so called "bolt on conventional" rather unsurprisingly has the second highest vote count. This is not an accident. Your poll options are badly concieved and/or designed specifically to corral votes into the conclusion you desired.

The only acceptable option for me when I looked at this poll was to use the "other" option and leave a comment. Your insistence that people leave a comment (in itself not a bad thing) indicates you must have either a. known would discourage people from using that option or b. failed to account for such discouragement. Either way, considering the bias inherent in your other options, this poll fails to convey any meaningful sentiment on why people wish the ending changed.

The reason I had the "other" option is because I wanted to account for any OTHER options in FUTURE polls.  I WANTED to hear what other ideas people had.  Hell, I created a new topic just for Q16 so I could get feedback before I posted it.  But guess what?  Nobody replied and the thread died off.   I can't predict every possible thing people want, but it seems people just like to criticize rather than contribute.

I see now that this poll (Q14) was poorly designed because it did not fully spell things out for people.  People seem to be seeing bais either because of this topic creator's initial post or because there wasn't enough descriptions in the polls to explain to people the reason for them.  (I relied on my forum post for a lot of that, I didn't realize people would be coming in from other places to vote.)

However either way, the point that has become clear through all this is that everyone wants OPTIONS, and just most prioritize a happy ending as the option they MOST want.

I actually owe you an apology, since you are not drawing the same conclusions as this topic's creator, nor speaking in the inflammatory manner that they are.

Unfortunately the issues with that poll's options still stand

Thanks, either way it's good to see at lest someone realizes that the OP didn't actually make the poll.  That in itself seems to be where a lot of this vitrol is coming from.

[Captain_Brian]

HALO_Project wrote...

Great poll. I voted and will be including a link in other posts. This should be heavily participated in. And I like that it also represents those that did like the endings as it stands now so they too have a voice. Not one I agree with but I respect all the same.

Thank you.

[2484Stryker]

Maybe someone with more knowledge of polling can add to this, but when I look at that question about the happy ending in DLC, I just feel like it's intentionally worded to make the happy ending option the most viable.

I mean all the other options include a bolt-on to the existing ending, which we all hated, so very few people will vote for those, leaving the "Mega Happy Ending" the only acceptable one.

The rest of the survey are excellent, however.

Just my two cents.

Modifié par 2484Stryker, 20 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[hawat333]

Now that's a much better poll, I mean it's more specific and asks the most debated aspects. Well done.

[Dhraconus]

I didn't answer the majority of your questions when I looked at it because they are all very loaded questions. It's like asking someone "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

The answers I want don't exist without also have extra baggage attached. I'd bet if your first question (The DLC ending, in general, should deliver the following experience) had included the option of:
"I want an ending that reflects the choices I made throughout the trilogy"

You would have (most likely) found an overwhelming majority selected that. Just because 51% of people selected the best of the options provided doesn't mean that is what they want. It only means of THOSE choices that is what they would prefer.

Edit: I mean no offense to the poll creator.  I have seen professional social scientists come up with worse questions for academic research.  That's why these things are usually passed around for feedback and undergo a trial run to see how they workout with participants who are asked to pick it apart.

Modifié par Dhraconus, 20 mars 2012 - 07:26 .

[Flytricks]

Personally imo whether the ending gets changed or not this is the best thing to happen to rpg's in a long time. The gaming community is finally putting their foot down and saying we demand a better caliber of writing in our games. Maybe now publishers and developers won't look to the writers first when budget cuts are necessary. There is no way they put allot of thought into the endings. It seems rushed and un thought out to me. Like they just needed something to get the game out. As long as our point is that we do care about the story and it will affect which games we buy or don't buy Bioware and other great rpg makers will be sure not to let this happen again. The ending to me was very unclear. I wasnt even sure which of the consoles coincided with the choice I was making so I ended up choosing blue becouse I was paragon. After all that I ended up basing my decision on a color. Afterwards I went to the forums to get a better understanding of what just happened. When I played through as renagade my choices felt mundane. No matter what I choose you're all going to die anyways or be left stranded and in the dark. For me any other play through's would be for the awsome combat.

[Kanon777]

People here who talk about how they cant sleep or cried or are having serious depression symptoms are definitely the ones who wanted a happy ending like Lightside Kotor. I guess there are alot more of those than they would like to admit

[synthevol]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

xsdob wrote...

52% favor, and I quote, "Mega Happy Ending (Shepard survives, Normandy stays, Relays Stay, ONLY Reapers Dead, romantic epilogue with LI and crew, no starchild, no stargazer)"

I think that counts as a "ending of only bunnys and sunshine", for comparison, the "Bolt-On Conventional (Shep rejects "Star Child", reapers are eventually destroyed with HEAVY losses using the allied fleet, Shep survives to reunite with crew)" has 29% in second place, with a 23% gap between them.

I believe that the second place one is more realistic, and what I thought from observation that everyone on here wanted as opposed to an "everything worked out fine and dandy" ending. I was wrong, and have been proven wrong through empirical evidence from this very community.

Quite frankly, the second place ending is even more ridiculous than the first place ending. No matter how many times it is CLEARLY SPELLED OUT by MULTIPLE PEOPLE in the game itself that trying to attack the Reapers conventionally would be SUICIDE, people still say "no way, we can totally do it cuz we're awesome!"

The Reapers are 37 million years old. They've done this Reapening a time or two before. Every single time. Every. Single. Time. They win. Against enemies FAR more advanced than this current cycle.

But no, this time, it's totally different. 

The Crucible and the Catalyst is OUR. ONLY. CHANCE. TO. STOP. THE. REAPERS. Not the "best" chance. The ONLY chance. But you want an ending where you fight the Reapers without the Crucible?

Okay. Here it is.

You lose. The galaxy dies. The Reapers win.

Full. Freaking. Stop. 

(personally, I'm fine with that being an option. If I'm stubborn enough to ignore the 10000 times it's said openly that we can't do it conventionally, then okay, give me the Debbie Downer ending. But that would just lead to more and more and more complaints, clearly.)

Throughout the game we have defeated Reapers using conventional means. we defeated the reaper on rannoch with just the Quarian fleet, and the Reaper on earth was defeated with just two human made missiles and some ground forces. On top of that it seems as though a lot of people against using conventional forces don't consider that we have done something no other cycle in 37 million years has accomplished we have the might of the galaxy all in the same solar system, we also have a planned strategic attack on them in the solar system, and we even found a weakness of the Reapers on Rannoch. To me it seems at least the game has been telling us two contradictory things, there is hope of defeating the reapers through our own tech, and we need something more than our own tech. Remember that we also have the thanix cannon which dealt with the collector ship pretty easily something that was well beyond our current tech also, why they didn't expand on this and outfit more ships with it seems like a big hole in the plot to me, but if they had it would of lessened the need of the crucible that they threw on us.

However I do feel that some of the ending needs to happen like the destruction of the Mass Relays. One of the Bioware employees I think it was Jessica Merizan said that shouldn't defeating the Reapers also include the Relays since they are reaper tech and the reapers way of influencing the galaxies growth. This is fine, however when you take this into account then the synthesis and control options make even less sense, because the Reapers are still around in control, and with synthesis we are all now reapers. So essentially synthesis is us agreeing with the Reapers completely, that there is no way for organics to live without synthetics, and they will always destroy us. So we end up giving the Reapers the Ultimate influence over organic evolution by removing organics from the galaxy permanently.  So to me it seems as though the Relays being destroyed in control and synthesis is worthless and just one more problem that I see with the current endings. Afterall it is the creator of the reapers and it is a machine itself that is giving us these options. Although I still can't figure out how anyone can just accept what the creator is telling us after having been told numerous times that the Reapers are our doom is beyond me.

[DieHigh2012]

I voted for the happy ending, because it fits my main Shep's story. I'm not saying that has to be the only one, or that it has to exist.

I really just want the ending to make sense, for there to be closure, and for the last two games to matter. I however was asked if I wanted a happy ending and yes I do want one to exist. That does not mean it is a necessity..

They are not right; most people do not like the endings. We will not all agree on what those ending should be, but 90% of us do agree that these endings we have now are pathetic and in no way reflect on how awesome the previous game were.

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 20 mars 2012 - 07:29 .

[Silveralen]

Let me explain this real quick, no we don't happy scenes, we want possibilities. In that poll, he doesn't ask what we want out ending to be, he asked if we wanted the possibility of it happening. I also want a possible ending where shepard decides the cycle is needed and lets it continue. I want options and possibilities.

I also want start child replaced with something less silly. Give me a AI projecting itself as Shepard, or something like that, if you have to, but not that.

[Kanon777]

Flytricks wrote...

Personally imo whether the ending gets changed or not this is the best thing to happen to rpg's in a long time. The gaming community is finally putting their foot down and saying we demand a better caliber of writing in our games. Maybe now publishers and developers won't look to the writers first when budget cuts are necessary. There is no way they put allot of thought into the endings. It seems rushed and un thought out to me. Like they just needed something to get the game out. As long as our point is that we do care about the story and it will affect which games we buy or don't buy Bioware and other great rpg makers will be sure not to let this happen again. The ending to me was very unclear. I wasnt even sure which of the consoles coincided with the choice I was making so I ended up choosing blue becouse I was paragon. After all that I ended up basing my decision on a color. Afterwards I went to the forums to get a better understanding of what just happened. When I played through as renagade my choices felt mundane. No matter what I choose you're all going to die anyways or be left stranded and in the dark. For me any other play through's would be for the awsome combat.

Or maybe they will chose the cheaper strategy. End developer-customer relations, since it can backfire so badly like it did, its best to stop participating in things like forums and just release your product as it is. This is also why SWTOR/WOW has a much worse internet comunity compared to GW2 (that has no forums). 

[Mvin]

The ending is incoherent.

As if Star Wars; Lord of the Rings etc. ended with the protagonists dying for barely explained reasons. It's just not what the sagas builds up to. They're all heroic stories, not tragic ones. There are many awesome, realistic films and games out there that have to protagonist dying, but they only work because they keep a consistent tone throughout the experience and seem to foreshadow an unhappy ending, so that the audience does not get irritated. Mass Effect suddenly changes that tone in the last 20 minutes, which leaves a very unsatisfying feeling because it betrays all the expectations that were build up in the whole trilogy. So we don't explicitly want a happy ending, we want an ending that stays true to the series and is coherent, which is in this case a happy ending.

And besides that: What's wrong with a happy ending in general? Many people seem to find the mere idea revolting...

[Blitz099]

as long as god child is out and we get some choice, I'll be happy,

a good, middle and bad ending with shep only living in the good ending would be briliant. I would also like to see my war assets in action.
Sadly I doubt this will happen, as bioware simply cannot turn around and say the current ending is wrong. Not fair on the people that actually like it

[Almostfaceman]

I don't know about your poll, but this one indicates that 85% only want Shep to live if the EMS is high enough and 57% think he should be allowed to lose if his EMS is low enough.

This clearly indicates people want what was advertised (funny how that works) which is a wide variety of endings.

[x-Killision-X]

            All but the MEGA-HAPPY ending say BOLT-ON. This may have skewed the results because bolting things on to the current endings (that are overwhelmingly hated by most) means the endings stay with a few "add-ons". While I agree that there should be massive losses and somewhat  of a character reuinion (need more deaths like Mordin, Legion, and Thane), maybe the question has to be re-worded. If I'm wrong and people want to get out unscathed by a F**KING GALACTIC INVASION, they are just being unrealistic..

And this is were the actual topic for this poll is:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10133310/1

Modifié par x-Killision-X, 20 mars 2012 - 07:36 .

[Captain_Brian]

Just to reiterate guys, THIS is the ACTUAL topic on this poll. The OP did NOT create this poll.

[Antigone2283]

Captain_Brian wrote...

Xivai wrote...

Antigone2283 wrote...

TL;DR all the comments.

Poll is flawed, conclusions are flawed, analysis is rendered obsolete.

This.

Then make a better poll or make an acutal suggestion on what the options and questions should be.

Why? It's not my responsibility to correct or out-do someone else's flawed work. However, since the conclusion makes false assumptions about my beliefs, I've every right to call it out. Plenty of people have elaborated on the problem(s). My point is, the poll is flawed and arguing about its conclusions is a waste of time and irrelevant.

Modifié par Antigone2283, 20 mars 2012 - 07:35 .

[TFulls]

autism finest

[Fuzrum77]

 I'm sick and tired of everyone confusing the word happy with wussy. Braveheart had a mostly happy ending to me. Sure <spoilers, lol> William Wallace dies. But afterwards, we got his voice-over afterwards telling us what happened next. -That- is how you do a bittersweet ending. 

Happy doesn't mean Disney. All the sci-fi/fantasy classics (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc.) had happy endings. There were losses in all of them though. We as human beings LIKE happy endings. Mass Effect was on the cusp of becoming a legendary classic, but failed to deliver a happy (satisfying if you prefer) ending choice. One of the endings should have been the epic happy ending with bittersweet moments included.

[Nobrandminda]

xsdob wrote...
EDIT AGAIN: 

I apologies if anyone found the way I worded my post to be offensive or off putting, but the results I saw were really disheartending and made me question whether the hold the line movement was really even worth supporting anymore.

It's the fact that this poll shows that the vast majority really does want a "dunshine and rainnbows" ending, that one of the biggest insults to the movement to have another ending is correct, with proof of such, that has really stuck hard. I'm not one of the people who hate the endings, I actually feel a somewhat emotional satisfaction from having my shepard's story come to an end, and him being at peace with the choice. But even so, to have what I considered the fringe of both sides being shown to be the majority all along, and the reasonable crowd being the fringe, is a shocker.

Anyway, the person who made these polls has one more question to upload, and it seems to be one with more options and a better wording so that people don't just vote for it because of the word "no starchild" in it, so here's hoping that that''s why the polls look the way they do.

I think you've managed to both read too much into the poll results, and miss the point entirely.  People don't want a happy ending because they're poor sobbing wretches who can't stand bad news as you seem to believe.  They want a happy ending because that would fit the story better.  One of the prevailing themes of the series has been Shepard beating impossible odds.  So yeah, an ending based on that idea is probably going to be slightly more upbeat than the one we got.

And in any case, why is a happy ending a bad thing?  I think after 60-90 hours we've earned it.

[Mayple]

There is a main reason why this set of polls cannot be conclusive.

The wording in the question says POSSIBILITY numerous times. Meaning not all endings will have whatever is asked. Basically the poll results say that we want options, not that we all want happy endings.

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

Miekkas wrote...

SPOILERS

Actually, they still failed to hit the nail on the head, and it has been demonstrated over and over again as to why. Read this article that point for point, shows why the entire Starchild situation and ending in nonsense:
https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true

People at this point are so disgusted with the starchild's concept that some want him scrapped entirely.

Let's address the fact that the current endings do not follow the prevalent theme of the series: the perseverance of Shepard and his team to overcome impossible odds and live to fight another day. They have built their legendary careers around defying authority and doing what people said no one could do, and they came out alive after doing it as icing on the cake. The ending of the game completely disregards this theme, which is why so many players are upset. They have come to expect a Shepard who is larger than life, a being who we can all look to as a *living* example of a hero. Shepard went from being a living hero throughout the entire series who lives depending on how much effort you put into the game even into the majority the third game until the last ten minutes where Bioware decided to change Shepard into a mindless drone who does as he is told instead of a being of defying authority. He is not even a tragic hero in the ending, which some people could have accepted. He is a pawn who simply gives in because some god starchild *says* he is right.

Why do "bashers" continue to think that by players asking for a "happy ending", they are asking for something out of a Disney movie? Consider the following:

1. Billions are dead by the end of the game regardless of Shepard's actions because the Reapers.
2. Earth, Palaven, and Thessia have all been essentially burned to the ground.
3. You have lost several current or former team members by the end of the game, regardless of your actions.
4. There are numerous hints that Shepard is suffering severe emotional and mental stress to the point of PTSD such the dream sequences, and Joker mentioning that EDI has detected Shepard's stress levels are higher than when he/she fought during the Skylian Blitz. Characters like Garrus, Joker, Ashley, Kaiden, and other characters all mention they don't know what has happened to their families. Liara's entire life spent studying the Protheans is completely uprooted by the appearance of Javik and discovery of Thessia. She feels like her entire life in the study has been wasted.

Regardless if the Reapers are destroyed, the relays are left intact, and Shepard lives to reunite with his surviving team, the end is at BEST bittersweet. Shepard and the entire Galaxy has suffered and sacrificed a lot to defeat the Reapers, and now they have to live each day while rebuilding what little they have left with the knowledge of EVERYTHING they have lost. There is no victory is war. There is only those who are left to pick up the pieces and bury the dead. Bashers cheapen the impact of the points I have made like they do not matter, but they do very much so. Talk to soldiers how they feel about coming home alive with friends who have died overseas and get back to me about the "whiny happy ending" nonsense because it is darn insulting to me. Happy endings are not always rainbows and bunnies. Sometimes they are just about living to see another day to honor those who we have lost and living with what has been lost for the rest of our lives. There is strength and meaning to be found in a man or woman who lives to see another day after losing so much and walks away with the determination to become a better person, to appreciate everything they still have whether that be friends or lovers or simply being alive. We should not cheapen the sacrifices of the lost by saying a soldier must die in having any deep meaning.

SPOILERS

This. It was a bad poll. The lack of options and tiered preferances for an issue like this was problematic, but so were the questions themselves. They were too specific and too few in possible answers, with no option for "other".

In addition, the poll doesn't address the core problems of the endings (though it also ignores most of the rest of the gigantic problems, too).

[Dethead123]

It's not about us wanting ONE happy ending. It's about us wanting that choice being available to us. I don't understand why so many people want a SINGULAR choice in a ME game. Do I want the endings we have now? Yes. Do I want a happy ending that provides closure with my crew? Yes. Do I want a ending where we win but Shepard dies? Yes. We were promised 16 different endings that weren't of a A, B, C system. So yes I want us to have 16 significantly different endings that represent our overall choices. Whether they be a happy ending, bittersweet ending, sad ending, realistic ending, etc. They should all be in it.