Sylvianus wrote...
...But, I must admit, that for those who are playing as themself, It migh be more difficult for them to accept this system.
...Not impossible, perhaps.Modifié par bEVEsthda, 04 avril 2012 - 08:37 .
Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*
David Gaider wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
Since you're interested in our opinions Mr. Gaider, I'd like to point out the "charming" option as a real issue. Usually, I didn't find it charming at all, but rude and egotistical, or completely inappropriate for the moment (as in a certain tragic event during the prologue, for example).
I agree, though it's a toss-up whether the problem is with the name of the tone (and thus the expectation from that) or the consistency of the tone itself. A little of column A and a little of column B, I suspect.I also loved the idea of the friendship/rivalry system, although I found it limiting in that I couldn't always express affection or dislike for a companion when I wanted to.
I commented earlier on the issue with the current system, and I'd say your issue is an outgrowth of this. I know some people seem to favor the idea of adding more vectors to the relationship, trying to chart it along several different paths, but I'd resist making the system more complex. Complexity, particularly in something which is abstracted out of necessity (as a relationship must be), isn't better... just as simplicity doesn't mean the relationship its abstracted must be simple. So long as it's something that can be easily understood by both the writers and the users, and is consistent in its implementation, I'd be happy.
Modifié par sjpelkessjpeler, 04 avril 2012 - 08:57 .
bEVEsthda wrote...
Sylvianus wrote...
...But, I must admit, that for those who are playing as themself, It migh be more difficult for them to accept this system.
I would be very surprised if anyone was playing the character "as themselves".
Modifié par slashthedragon, 04 avril 2012 - 08:30 .
slashthedragon wrote...
Sylvianus wrote...
Fortunately, the old school definitions , the old school labels about what is an rpg, or what is role play I do not respect them.BobSmith101 wrote...
Sylvianus wrote...
I answered and gave my opinion, my point of view about this issue. And you really need to read your posts, because, while you are saying be fine with that, you imply also that players who like the voiced protagonist aren't concerned by roleplay. This isn't true, we may have different perceptions, opinions, but I care as much as you about roleplay and I just wanted to show you that basically, it is the same thing even if DAO had more variables. I have no issues with the voiced protagonist if the game offers me enough to role play. Yes role play.
And yes, I like the voiced protagonist, but it isn't just because I " like watching movies. "
Well it's more about the paraphrasing, but it's essentially correct
Roleplaying in the old school definition is about becoming the character. You probably know what you are going to say before you say it ? Therefore you can't become a character in a paraphrase system.
You can still direct a character, so if you have no interest in viewing yourself as the character , it won't matter a great deal what the character says as long as you know the direction of the conversation.
Role play, isn't only about viewing in myself as the character, or becoming the character . It is also about to be able to create your own character, what you decided that your pc would be. That's also role play. When you go to the rpg forums, you see that they create their characters and don't play them as themself. What I do with Bioware's games. It's also called role play.
So, With the paraphrase system, if it is worked, I can know what my character is going to say, even If I don't know exactly each words, that's enough for me. The rest is in my head; This is really a minor issue for me and that doesn't prevent me to imagine my own character. I find that the wheel is really worked in M3. The sentences are really close to what meant the paraphrase. Never I was surprised.
If you role play a character you imagined whether he is silent or voiced, full line or paraphrase, what the game offers never fits exactly to what you would have chosen or said or imagined for him. In DAO, how many times, what I picked was only the closest to what I wanted to say for my character ? This is the same, The pc gives a sentence that you only expected, but that's it. it is only approximate, so it does not change much. You must adapt to what the game gives you and the rest is in your head. ( When I have written a fanfiction with my warden, telling his story, I never chose the same sentences proposed by DAO )
But, I must admit, that for those who are playing as themself, It migh be more difficult for them to accept this system.
There is something fundamentally wrong with the paraphrase, as people here have admitted to reloading a game several times because what came out of the PC's mouth was unexpected.
Sylvianus wrote...
No, there was something fundamentally wrong with DA2's wheel.[/b] Because it was a real mess. Yes, I agree. Like you, I complained about that.
Yes I do, because they need to convince all those who are screaming for full sentence, they need to show that it can work too with paraphrase. If they won't give you what you want exactly, ( silent protagonist, full sentence ) they will do everything they can to fix your biggest reasons to complainslashthedragon wrote...
Sylvianus wrote...
No, there was something fundamentally wrong with DA2's wheel.[/b] Because it was a real mess. Yes, I agree. Like you, I complained about that.
Point.
Do you think they will actually fix it?
Sylvianus wrote...
Yes I do, because they need to convince all those who are screaming for full sentence, they need to show that it can work too with paraphrase. If they won't give you what you want exactly, ( silent protagonist, full sentence ) they will do everything they can to fix your biggest reasons to complain
what I meant is that I think you're ready to make every effort to ensure your decision, your choice, and your path is convincing at best even if it wasn't what wanted those people. The best way to silence critics. For example with a wheel ( paraphrase ) really worked close to what tell the PC.David Gaider wrote...
Sylvianus wrote...
Yes I do, because they need to convince all those who are screaming for full sentence, they need to show that it can work too with paraphrase. If they won't give you what you want exactly, ( silent protagonist, full sentence ) they will do everything they can to fix your biggest reasons to complain
To a point, perhaps. There is a point where trying to address an issue with half-measures which will ultimately never be satisfying to those who refuse to accept the very premise of what you're doing can be counter-productive, but this does not mean we won't look at options.
I explained my issue with full sentences earlier in this thread, so I won't repeat them. I do notice, however, that anyone who references what I said tends to refute the premise-- as opposed to trying to understand what I'm saying and offer a compromise-- which is pretty telling. I suppose, from their perspective, we're doing the same thing... but we really can't help that, as we're the ones making the game. So, yeah.
Modifié par Sylvianus, 04 avril 2012 - 09:12 .
Modifié par bEVEsthda, 04 avril 2012 - 09:17 .
Can you put the wheel at the edge of the screen so that there will be more space for the options? With the wheel in the middle of the screen, the maximum length of the options is simply too short to contain enough information.David Gaider wrote...
There will be a wheel interface and voiced protaganist, of that I have little doubt.
Modifié par Maria Caliban, 04 avril 2012 - 09:56 .
Maria Caliban wrote...
I think Deus Ex has the best compromise between full text and dialogue wheel I've seen.
The wheel itself is a one word description of what the intent of that option is while there's full text to the side.
*snip*
I understand that displaying every word simply isn't possible where you're going to have back and forth exchanges. But including the full line whenever possible would be acceptable, wouldn't it? If the full text fits on the screen, use it. If the full text includes mutliple sentences amidst interjections from others, then obviously you can't display it all, and then you'd need to rely on some sort of paraphrase (given your other apparently intractable positions).David Gaider wrote...
I explained my issue with full sentences earlier in this thread, so I won't repeat them.
Maria Caliban wrote...
I think Deus Ex has the best compromise between full text and dialogue wheel I've seen.
The wheel itself is a one word description of what the intent of that option is while there's full text to the side.
Maria Caliban wrote...
I think Deus Ex has the best compromise between full text and dialogue wheel I've seen.
The wheel itself is a one word description of what the intent of that option is while there's full text to the side.
Modifié par David Gaider, 04 avril 2012 - 10:02 .
Legacy had auto-dialogue. There were exchanges between Hawke and his companions where the player had no input at all.David Gaider wrote...
As I said earlier, that's not the plan for DA-- whatsoever. The only auto-dialog we tend to do is either a continuation of something you just picked (so you select an option and there's a back-and-forth exchange that results) or the dominant tone-based line that results from selecting an action choice (which I wouldn't really consider auto-dialog, but considering you have less control over the resulting line than in tone choices I imagine many would). That was the level in DA2, and while we might end up changing how it works in the future at the very least we would be using this as the base from which to work-- not ME3.
I would argue that the full text (with action descriptions) is always required in order to understand what your character is going to do.David Gaider wrote...
There are issues with it, however-- one being that you wouldn't want reading the full text to be required in order to understand what you were going to do...
David Gaider wrote...
My experience with Deus Ex is that it was quite inconsistent with its dialogue wheel-- no doubt because they encountered issues with that execution style on their own, I'm not really sure. So showing that screenshot is a bit misleading, I think.
Regardless, something in that vein is indeed a possibility. There are issues with it, however-- one being that you wouldn't want reading the full text to be required in order to understand what you were going to do... so is a one-word description enough?
David Gaider wrote...
Regardless, something in that vein is indeed a possibility. There are issues with it, however-- one being that you wouldn't want reading the full text to be required in order to understand what you were going to do...
Modifié par slashthedragon, 04 avril 2012 - 10:18 .
It wasn't my intent to mislead. I just wanted to give a visual example of what I thought was a nice compromise. I didn't notice the inconsistencies, but much of the time I didn't read the full text.David Gaider wrote...
Maria Caliban wrote...
I think Deus Ex has the best compromise between full text and dialogue wheel I've seen.
The wheel itself is a one word description of what the intent of that option is while there's full text to the side.
My experience with Deus Ex is that it was quite inconsistent with its dialogue wheel-- no doubt because they encountered issues with that execution style on their own, I'm not really sure. So showing that screenshot is a bit misleading, I think.
I always found the one word description to be enough. I'm not Sylvius. What matters to me is the PC's intent when they say something, not what they end up saying. Options like [Placate], [Demand], [Change Subject], [Flirt], or [Inquire] are even better than paraphrases for me.Regardless, something in that vein is indeed a possibility. There are issues with it, however-- one being that you wouldn't want reading the full text to be required in order to understand what you were going to do... so is a one-word description enough?
True.There are also the issues with full text that I mentioned earlier, which don't go away, so there's the possibility that we're substituting one set of problems with another... in addition to not really providing the solution to people which some think this implementation would solve.
I'll stop worrying then.Even so, we're looking into it.
Modifié par Maria Caliban, 04 avril 2012 - 10:28 .
slashthedragon wrote...
Wait, what?
Wouldn't want to read the full text?
Are the younger generations suddenly adverse to reading even a few extra words?
If so, I weep for the future.
Upsettingshorts wrote...
slashthedragon wrote...
Wait, what?
Wouldn't want to read the full text?
Are the younger generations suddenly adverse to reading even a few extra words?
If so, I weep for the future.
I swear to God every time I read this crap I lose a year off of my life.
Retour en haut
