833 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...


My experience with Deus Ex is that it was quite inconsistent with its dialogue wheel-- no doubt because they encountered issues with that execution style on their own, I'm not really sure. So showing that screenshot is a bit misleading, I think.

Regardless, something in that vein is indeed a possibility. There are issues with it, however-- one being that you wouldn't want reading the full text to be required in order to understand what you were going to do... so is a one-word description enough? There are also the issues with full text that I mentioned earlier, which don't go away, so there's the possibility that we're substituting one set of problems with another... in addition to not really providing the solution to people which some think this implementation would solve.

Even so, we're looking into it.

One could possibly argue that the one-word option is slightly better in some ways then a paraphrase, because it gives you the state of mind your character is going to use. Bribery is quite literally bribery. Placating a person means you want to placate them and try and calm the situation down a peg.

It's like the explanatory thought idea that was proposed on the Mark Darrah thread. While I'm not sure how I would personally stand on that front, it lets you know what's going through your character's mind at least.

Which is the exact same thing the tone icons do, but the paraphrases tend to ruin/damage this or the icon might not be enough. For me, anyway.

Now I'm not asking for simply tones. Merely pointing out that in some minds a one-word option gives more information then a paraphrase.

Not for me though. I'd prefer to know what I'm going to say, how I'm going to say it, and hear it myself. Hearing it twice wouldn't bother me personally, though I realize that only applies to me and most other people would hate having such a theing happen.

Regardless, it's nice to know that you're not adverse to showing the full line that coexists with the paraphrases in some way. I took your earlier comments to mean that full lines wouldn't appear in any way, shape, or form at all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 avril 2012 - 10:27 .

[Maria Caliban]

slashthedragon wrote...

Wait, what?
Wouldn't want to read the full text?
Are the younger generations suddenly adverse to reading even a few extra words?
If so, I weep for the future.

Did the older generations suddenly become melodramatic?

Nope, same as it ever was.

[upsettingshorts]

slashthedragon wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...
Wait, what?
Wouldn't want to read the full text?
Are the younger generations suddenly adverse to reading even a few extra words?
If so, I weep for the future.

I swear to God every time I read this crap I lose a year off of my life.

May I ask why?
If I truly insulted you I would like to apologize.

Here ya go, from earlier in the thread.

Although that kind of only answers it partially.  The assumption that players who dislike the full text also don't like to read has been dismissed time and time again as being false and prejudicial.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[Restraint]

slashthedragon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Regardless, something in that vein is indeed a possibility. There are issues with it, however-- one being that you wouldn't want reading the full text to be required in order to understand what you were going to do...

Wait, what?
Wouldn't want to read the full text?
Are the younger generations suddenly adverse to reading even a few extra words?
If so, I weep for the future.

Well my superior friend I for one am averse to the idea of having to read a paragraph just before it is to be performed for me. I don't ask for a copy of the script when I buy movie tickets either.

[Darth Krytie]

Maybe it all can be fixed by using some sort of HK-47ish system "sarcastic rebuke" or "condescending reiteration" or something.

[the_one_54321]

Restraint wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Regardless, something in that vein is indeed a possibility. There are issues with it, however-- one being that you wouldn't want reading the full text to be required in order to understand what you were going to do...

Wait, what?
Wouldn't want to read the full text?
Are the younger generations suddenly adverse to reading even a few extra words?
If so, I weep for the future.

Well my superior friend I for one am averse to the idea of having to read a paragraph just before it is to be performed for me. I don't ask for a copy of the script when I buy movie tickets either.

Well hey, everyone is in luck. Because there's a super easy and utterly inexpensive solution to all these voice over problem; don't have a voice over.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Restraint wrote...

Well my superior friend I for one am averse to the idea of having to read a paragraph just before it is to be performed for me. I don't ask for a copy of the script when I buy movie tickets either.

How do you know which paragraph you want performed if you haven't read them first?

[Sylvianus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


My experience with Deus Ex is that it was quite inconsistent with its dialogue wheel-- no doubt because they encountered issues with that execution style on their own, I'm not really sure. So showing that screenshot is a bit misleading, I think.

Regardless, something in that vein is indeed a possibility. There are issues with it, however-- one being that you wouldn't want reading the full text to be required in order to understand what you were going to do... so is a one-word description enough? There are also the issues with full text that I mentioned earlier, which don't go away, so there's the possibility that we're substituting one set of problems with another... in addition to not really providing the solution to people which some think this implementation would solve.

Even so, we're looking into it.

One could possibly argue that the one-word option is slightly better in some ways then a paraphrase, because it gives you the state of mind your character is going to use. Bribery is quite literally bribery. Placating a person means you want to placate them and try and calm the situation down a peg.

Hawk [ Flirt ] = > ooooooooh Merril, you are so cuuuute !   Player who expected something badass with the word " flirt ", * facepalm *

there's nothing better than the paraphrase after the full text to know what the pc might tell and if it suits its personality. And the full text like deux, I don't like that either with a voiced protagonist. So, for me the paraphrase is the best compromise.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 04 avril 2012 - 10:46 .

[slashthedragon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...
Wait, what?
Wouldn't want to read the full text?
Are the younger generations suddenly adverse to reading even a few extra words?
If so, I weep for the future.

I swear to God every time I read this crap I lose a year off of my life.

May I ask why?
If I truly insulted you I would like to apologize.

Here ya go, from earlier in the thread.

Although that kind of only answers it partially.  The assumption that players who dislike the full text also don't like to read has been dismissed time and time again as being false and prejudicial.

Then I do apologize.
Would it be more accurate to say that comanies are assuming that the current generation of gamers does not like to read?
I know it is often an issue with dubbed vs subbed movies and shows.  I saw a least one survey where the younger age groups preferred dubbed because they didn't think they could read and watch a movie at the same time.

[TheComfyCat]

Then why would they include things like the codex?

[slashthedragon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

Wait, what?
Wouldn't want to read the full text?
Are the younger generations suddenly adverse to reading even a few extra words?
If so, I weep for the future.

Did the older generations suddenly become melodramatic?

Nope, same as it ever was.

I just have to say that I've seen examples of older gen. preferring subtitles or full lines, while the younger gen. like my niece and her friends tend to favor dubbed and paraphrasing.  Of course this is limited to how many people I know, so unless there is some kind of country wide survey, the exact truth will never be known.

[upsettingshorts]

No, that's not it at all either.

First, put the generational observations down. Not just for this subject, but in general. They're almost always nonsense. If you go back thousands of years you'll find people long dead complaining about "kids these days" using almost the exact same rhetoric you'll hear today.  It never ends.

Second, there are a few reasons not to support the inclusion of the full line. Some are given by the writers and developers from their perspective - and David Gaider is covering those - others have to do with sub-vocalization ("I don't like to hear a line in my head and then hear it again spoken"), others simply feel as though it isn't necessary and time/zots ought to be devoted to other things, and some people do indeed like to be surprised by the precise content of the line/action chosen because it makes the scene more engaging. If you extend it further to the unvoiced protagonist/full text instead of simply replacing paraphrases, there are those - like me for example - who simply cannot stand the inconsistency of having one character silent and static while the rest speak.

Finally, even the full-text preview's biggest critics are readers - they just don't necessarily think the full text preview or the unvoiced protagonist makes for a fun game. It's got little/nothing to do with the act of reading itself.  The issue ultimately is one of what represents a satisfactory amount of control to the player and what doesn't.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 avril 2012 - 10:48 .

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
There are issues with it, however-- one being that you wouldn't want reading the full text to be required in order to understand what you were going to do... so is a one-word description enough? There are also the issues with full text that I mentioned earlier, which don't go away, so there's the possibility that we're substituting one set of problems with another... in addition to not really providing the solution to people which some think this implementation would solve.

I think the one word tones that you have in Human Revolution or Alpha Protocol work because you're playing as a much more defined protagonist in Jensen or Thorton. They have established personalities and defined lives without any input from the player. Granted, both offer more wrinkles to the dialogue than the one word tones, with HR offering the full text if you want to read it and AP making every dialogue timed, so you wouldn't have time to read anything longer anyway.

If the goal is to achieve a cinematic approach where the flow and pacing of conversations stay intact, then I think Alpha Protocol's timed dialogues with one word tones and a more fixed protagonist works. Since Human Revolution didn't have timed dialogues but it had a more fixed protagonist, I don't feel as much agency (I'm not Jensen, I'm just guiding him) from the start, so one word tones are fine, but you have the option to see full text.

Granted, I'd prefer a silent protagonist with Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines style dialogue (full text plus tones) but thats seemingly impossible going forward. Its just that the paraphrases and voiced PC's like Shepard and Hawke feel like mushy middle ground compromises- they're not left open enough via full text and non voiced to enable first person roleplaying like Origins or KOTOR or Baldur's Gate but they're not defined enough like Mike Thorton or Adam Jensen to make it obviously a third person roleplaying experience.

[Darth Krytie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

No, that's not it at all either.

First, put the generational observations down. Not just for this subject, but in general. They're almost always nonsense. If you go back thousands of years you'll find people long dead complaining about "kids these days" using almost the exact same rhetoric you'll hear today.

Second, there are a few reasons not to support the inclusion of the full line. Some are given by the writers and developers from their perspective - and David Gaider is covering those - others have to do with sub-vocalization ("I don't like to hear a line in my head and then hear it again spoken"), others simply feel as though it isn't necessary and time/zots ought to be devoted to other things, and some people do indeed like to be surprised by the precise content of the line/action chosen because it makes the scene more engaging. If you extend it further to the unvoiced protagonist/full text instead of simply replacing paraphrases, there are those - like me for example - who simply cannot stand the inconsistency of having one character silent and static while the rest speak.

Finally, even the full-text preview's biggest critics are readers - they just don't necessarily think the full text preview or the unvoiced protagonist makes for a fun game. It's got little/nothing to do with the act of reading itself.

I think David also mentioned there's a character limit they have to work with when using the dialogue wheel.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

BioWare has - pretty obviously - chosen third person. 

One of the reasons we find that hard to swallow is that Ray Muzyka, discussing BioWare's two big titles, actually referred to the first person vs/ third person divide, and said that Mass Effect offered a third person narrative while Dragon Age offered a first person narrative.

It was then that I gave upon Mass Effect.  If they were actively trying to do the thing I didn't want them to do, I wanted no part of it.

But Dragon Age was first person.  They said so.  And first person is all I ever want.  So I'm going to continue to make suggestions to help push any given game in development toward a greater accommodation of first person narrative playstyles.

[Maria Caliban]

I don't think you need a predefined protagonist to make the intent choices work.

[Restraint]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

How do you know which paragraph you want performed if you haven't read them first?

Ideally the paraphrase/icon system will convey that information (it usually does) but it isn't a requirement. I find the idea that one can't roleplay as, identify with, or get into the head of a character if you don't know exactly what they're going to say before they say it inexplicable. I've never been prevented from identifying with the protagonist of a book because I can't divine every line of dialogue before I read it on the page.

the_one_54321 wrote...

Well hey, everyone is in luck. Because there's a super easy and utterly inexpensive solution to all these voice over problem; don't have a voice over. 

 
Silent PCs damage my immersion in general and imo stick out like a sore thumb in bioware games. I'm swiping at low hanging fruit here but the landsmeet was awful and the heroic speech before denerim was outrageous. Those should have been two of the most incredible parts of DA:O but instead we had Loghaine's argument with the banns and Alistair pinch hitting for the PC. Silent PC has gone as far as it can go in bioware's system.

Modifié par Restraint, 04 avril 2012 - 10:56 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

One of the reasons we find that hard to swallow is that Ray Muzyka, discussing BioWare's two big titles, actually referred to the first person vs/ third person divide, and said that Mass Effect offered a third person narrative while Dragon Age offered a first person narrative.

I'm aware of the quote, and Brockolololololololy has brought it up a few times in response to my arguments.

I find it hard to reconcile with the games they were actually making.  As someone who has disputed what BioWare personnel have said versus what they've done on many occasions, you must understand how I can confidently hold a position that's contrary to what Dr. Ray has stated.

Even still, I've pointed to things like the voice/paraphrase as being the key step towards an explicitly third person experience, so it's possible that they simply decided to move completely in that direction after Origins.  That's not something I can know for sure.  It's safe to say they were at least aware of the distinction, however, as they didn't say that Dragon Age was for "old fans" and Mass Effect was for "new fans."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 avril 2012 - 10:53 .

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
while Dragon Age offered a first person narrative.

It obviously doesn't anymore. Hawke is distinctly 3rd person.

You're not a dummy Sylvius. I know you're not. I've had lots of conversations with you. If someone gives you a long and detailed description of a goat, and then tells you "that is a house cat," you know better than to accept what's being told to you.

Restraint wrote...
Silent PCs damage my immersion in general and imo stick out like a sore thumb in bioware games. I'm swiping at low hanging fruit here but the landsmeet was awful and the heroic speech before denerim was outrageous. Those should have been two of the most incredible parts of DA:O but instead we had Loghaine's argument with the banns and Alistair pinch hitting for the PC. Silent PC has gone as far as it can go in bioware's system.

Allow me to disagree.

RPGs were distinctly better when they didn't have voices and weren't worried about being overtly cinematic. Your options were never trampled on by voices that suddenly contradicted what the game had previously created for you in your mind.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 04 avril 2012 - 10:53 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I think David also mentioned there's a character limit they have to work with when using the dialogue wheel.

That limit exists only because they put the wheel in the middle of the screen (rather than at the edge, which would allow for longer lines), because the paraphrases are somehow allergic to word wrapping, and because the console manufacturers insist on accommodating 640*480 displays.

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

RPGs were distinctly better when they didn't have voices and weren't worried about being overtly cinematic. Your options were never trampled on by voices that suddenly contradicted what the game had previously created for you in your mind.

But if I argue that never existed and/or didn't matter because the game didn't react to them, what reason would I have for wanting to support a return to the silent protagonist?

To... make players like you feel better?  Nah.  We're all ultimately selfish here and I don't feel any obligation to advocate compromises that would diminish my experience.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 avril 2012 - 10:58 .

[Darth Krytie]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Restraint wrote...
Silent PCs damage my immersion in general and imo stick out like a sore thumb in bioware games. I'm swiping at low hanging fruit here but the landsmeet was awful and the heroic speech before denerim was outrageous. Those should have been two of the most incredible parts of DA:O but instead we had Loghaine's argument with the banns and Alistair pinch hitting for the PC. Silent PC has gone as far as it can go in bioware's system.

Allow me to disagree.

RPGs were distinctly better when they didn't have voices and weren't worried about being overtly cinematic. Your options were never trampled on by voices that suddenly contradicted what the game had previously created for you in your mind.

I actually find the opposite. It always threw me out of immersion when my character's face looked utterly blank even as her lines were angry or sad. She looked like she was checking out the sportspage of the newspaper. I prefer a line delivered angrily when my character is angry.

(fixed spelling issue)

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 04 avril 2012 - 11:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I actually find the opposite. It always through me out of immersion when my character's face looked utterly blank even as her lines were angry or sad. She looked like she was checking out the sportspage of the newspaper. I prefer a line delivered angrily when my character is angry.

Agreed.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
RPGs were distinctly better when they didn't have voices and weren't worried about being overtly cinematic. Your options were never trampled on by voices that suddenly contradicted what the game had previously created for you in your mind.

But if I argue that never existed and/or didn't matter because the game didn't react to them, what reason would I have for wanting to support a return to the silent protagonist?

To... make players like you feel better?  Nah.  We're all ultimately selfish here and I don't feel any obligation to advocate compromises that would diminish my experience.

The game never reacted? Really?? Really???
I'm not saying the game needs to be like JRPGs, but fact of the matter is that they have had game reactions figured out since before we got passed 32 bit systems. The game can react without having even more sound than electronic tones, and do a darn good job of it.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...
I actually find the opposite. It always through me out of immersion when my character's face looked utterly blank even as her lines were angry or sad. She looked like she was checking out the sportspage of the newspaper. I prefer a line delivered angrily when my character is angry.

Agreed.

Then I have more good news! There's no reason whatsoever for the character to be unreactive simply by not having a voice actor!

The issue of distinction and confusion and/or immerision is one that has come up specifically because game makers started putting voices in games.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 04 avril 2012 - 11:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The game never reacted? Really?? Really??? 

Yes, really.

If I select the BE ANGRY dialog option for my character, and that character does not appear to be angry, then it failed to react.

the_one_54321 wrote... 

I'm not saying the game needs to be like JRPGs, but fact of the matter is that they have had game reactions figured out since before we got passed 32 bit systems. The game can react without having even more sound than electronic tones, and do a darn good job of it.

You and I have incompatible definitions of reactivity, or must, because I have no clue what you're even talking about here.

I have never been able to imagine content and have the game react to what exists solely in my head.  I have only been able to select pre-written options and experience pre-determined consequences.  Anything beyond that is made up, with a made up reaction.  This is true of all single player cRPGs regardless of their presentation.