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[Sylvianus]

BobSmith101 wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
...But, I must admit, that for those who are playing as themself, It migh be more difficult for them to accept this system.

I would be very surprised if anyone was playing the character "as themselves".   ...Not impossible, perhaps.

But oneself, or a role, doesn't matter. It's the same. So the difficulties you see for us are the same.

Mission accomplised.

I'm in agreement with Dave about the DX:HR screenshots being a little missleading. Adam often goes into monlogues that makes Shepards look like soundbites. Even if you have looked at the dialogue as written. It has no negative impact on the game, but then I'm not trying to be Adam in DX:HR only take the story in the direction I choose.

The issue with a set protagonist like Adam, it's you can't  try to create your Adam either. You can't imagine his past, his background, he has his own relationships, there are some people you don't know but he knows, and you are just watching regardless of what you want or imagined for him. This isn't the same with Shepard. You discover things along with your character. And before M3, bioware let you the opportunity to express your feelings with regard to any character, and you were not forced to be friend with some companions you had decided that your pc would not like according to his personality.

You can only be default Adam, and like you said only to take the story in the direction you choose. It is a bit too much for me. I am not saying I don't like that ( because I might like TW2, so it is only probably a matter of tastes ) but I would prefer something else.

Most of the time, with Bioware's games you control most of the information, your character is approximately born with you.

With Geralt, I saw some videos to see how was the game. And I got the impression of missing things.  Tw2 will tell me if I can accept this kind of rpg. I await the day of its release on Xbox.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 avril 2012 - 12:00 .

[Fisto The Sexbot]

It's pointless to complain about that in Mass Effect since you didn't have THAT much control over your character to begin with, like in a conventional RPG.

If Dragon age 2 keeps the 3 colour dialogue wheel how will that be any different though? People would mash 1, 2, 3, anyway.

[Sylvianus]

Well, auto-dialogue in M3 is a bit too much compared to what was usual in Mass Effect 1 and Mass effect 2. Those games have never forced players to be friends with people they did not like for example.

It's easy to understand you can't kill a character, but it is disturbing if you can't even express your feelings, or at least it would be nice if our PC didn't say anything nice without our consent to a character we don't like ( or decided that our character wouldn't like according to its personality ) for example. * Liara * That's just wrong.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 avril 2012 - 04:37 .

[AkiKishi]

Sylvianus wrote...
The issue with a set protagonist like Adam, it's you can't  try to create your Adam either. You can't imagine his past, his background, he has his own relationships, there are some people you don't know but he knows, and you are just watching regardless of what you want or imagined for him. This isn't the same with Shepard. You discover things along with your character. And before M3, bioware let you the opportunity to express your feelings with regard to any character, and you were not forced to be friend with some companions you had decided that your pc would not like according to his personality.

You can only be default Adam, and like you said only to take the story in the direction you choose. It is a bit too much for me. I am not saying I don't like that ( because I might like TW2, so it is only probably a matter of tastes ) but I would prefer something else.

Most of the time, with Bioware's games you control most of the information, your character is approximately born with you.

With Geralt, I saw some videos to see how was the game. And I got the impression of missing things.  Tw2 will tell me if I can accept this kind of rpg. I await the day of its release on Xbox.

It's exactly the same as Hawke, and the same as Shepard in ME3.

Adam still directs the story, more so than both DA2 and ME3 , with regards to how  the game ends. What you did matters.Having a fixed appearence and a full name is the only real difference between ME3/DA2 and DX:HR.

We must have played different Bioware games... Even as far back as BG you were raised in CandleKeep. There has never been a game that let you create any character you wanted. Had to go to IWD/II Black Isle for that.

[FaeQueenCory]

RedSonia wrote...

I really found more expressive and I got more immersion with my Warden than with my Hawke because, voiced or not, she was more true to what I wanted her to express. Also I'm tired to read the Warden was silent. He/She had a voice, just didn't use it in the dialog wheel.

THIS. I think that a great many people feel more connected to their Wardens rather than Hawke.
It's why you still have people clamoring for the Warden to be the protagonist in DA3.

I also found the Warden to be more craft-able than Hawke. And making the character more craft-able to the player, makes them more emotionally invested in that character because it makes them fel like that character belongs to them.

If I wanted to watch a movie, I would (or "play" FFXIII)... But when I sit down to a western RPG, I want to lose myself in the world and in MY interactions with the npcs. And I think Extra Credts gave the best description of how Western and JRPGs differ. (And I think their distinction is accurate. I say so because I believe that it is at the core of why SO many people lobbed the "JRPG" tag on DA2... because according to Extra Credits' distinction... It IS a JRPG.)


It is not a matter of "moving forward" that the use of a voiced protagonist represents, but a matter of what the game sets out to do: either tell you a pre-made story (DA2), or to let you craft your own story within the setting of a pre-made world (Origins, Skyrim, etc...).

And before anyone says anything about me calling DA2 a "JRPG"... It really IS if you accept the distinction made by the good folks at Extra Credits. And Japanese games like Persona 3 and 4 are technically "wesern RPGs". It's not a matter of origin, but of flavor and build. So go watch that link becuse they explain themselves better than I can paraphrase!

[Sylvianus]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
The issue with a set protagonist like Adam, it's you can't  try to create your Adam either. You can't imagine his past, his background, he has his own relationships, there are some people you don't know but he knows, and you are just watching regardless of what you want or imagined for him. This isn't the same with Shepard. You discover things along with your character. And before M3, bioware let you the opportunity to express your feelings with regard to any character, and you were not forced to be friend with some companions you had decided that your pc would not like according to his personality.

You can only be default Adam, and like you said only to take the story in the direction you choose. It is a bit too much for me. I am not saying I don't like that ( because I might like TW2, so it is only probably a matter of tastes ) but I would prefer something else.

Most of the time, with Bioware's games you control most of the information, your character is approximately born with you.

With Geralt, I saw some videos to see how was the game. And I got the impression of missing things.  Tw2 will tell me if I can accept this kind of rpg. I await the day of its release on Xbox.

It's exactly the same as Hawke, and the same as Shepard in ME3.

Adam still directs the story, more so than both DA2 and ME3 , with regards to how  the game ends. What you did matters.Having a fixed appearence and a full name is the only real difference between ME3/DA2 and DX:HR.

We must have played different Bioware games... Even as far back as BG you were raised in CandleKeep. There has never been a game that let you create any character you wanted. Had to go to IWD/II Black Isle for that.

No, it isn't the same. I don't know how you can say that. Brockololy gave a good idea.

I think the one word tones that you have in Human Revolution or Alpha Protocol work because you're playing as a much more defined protagonist in Jensen or Thorton. They have established personalities and defined lives without any input from the player. Granted, both offer more wrinkles to the dialogue than the one word tones, with HR offeringthe full text if you want to read it and AP making every dialogue timed, so you wouldn't have time to read anything longer anyway.

When I begin mass effect, I choose my background, there's no information I don't know from the past, I'm not already in bed with a woman I don't even know  at the beginning but the character knows as well, and talk as if they were the best friends. I just decide what he could say. With DAO, I choose my background, I read what the game offers me.  And with my imagination, I develop, I add facts, events for his past for example.

The same with Adams, when I begin this game, He has his girlfriend who is totally unknown but whatever, he is talking with her in the elevator, without any input from me, saying he loves her, what's going on, kidding with her, blah blah blah. auto-dialogue. Auto-dialogue.He has his life. I was just watching.

Hawk, sure he has his family, I couldn't choose his background ( and I complained about that, so I'd rather take DAO as a good example despite we haven't a voiced protagonist  ) but at least I could give my input.

If you do not pay attention to the nuances, it is obvious that you'll never make the difference. Moreover, it is not very relevant to say that this is exactly the same  when on the other hand, some of you complain because Bioware's games with a voiced protagonist are not sufficiently like deux and all those games with a set protagonist for the system with the cinematics.

Either there are some differences, either it is exactly the same. Either shepard and Hawk aren't enough defined according to you, so more for the imagination, either it is not the case.

When I say my shepard, it's obvious that I can't totally and exactly create what I want, It would be dumb if someone believes that IN A GAME, that's totally possible without any compromise, even with a silent protagonist. You must adapt to what the game offers to you. But, if I can define a bit his life, his feelings, his relationships, his personality, despite the limits of the game, yes it is different. If the pc has already a relationship with a woman, his life, some relationships important, without my agreement. No I haven't any input and so, I can't think it's my character, I play the hero offered by the game. The set protagonist with its choices.  And diminishing the relevance of the ability to create our own face, ( also gender, etc ) is not interesting from my point of view. It is also part of the customization of the character and this is important.

When I am playing Deus evolution, I am playing Adam, and he decides what he has to do in his adventure ( I never said they weren't choices and different path in the game. ) When I played Mass effect 1, I had enough freedom to imagine.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 avril 2012 - 04:47 .

[AkiKishi]

Sylvianus wrote...
No, it isn't the same. I don't know how you can say that. Brockololy gave a good idea.

It's exactly the same.

Hawke - after time skip 1 people greet you I have no bloody idea who they are.
Shepard - At the start of ME3 up walks Vega and I'm like who the hell are you ? But Shepard knows who he is.

That makes it the same as Deus Ex:HR.

[Cultist]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I sometimes feel as though some
posters in this forum would call a meal bad if a few of the peas touched
the mashed potatoes.

the_one_54321 wrote...

I never asked for mashed potatoes in the first place. Two years ago, I was sitting here happily enjoying my peas.

^^^THIS^^^

[Sylvianus]

It's exactly the same.

Hawke - after time skip 1 people greet you I have no bloody idea who they are.
Shepard - At the start of ME3 up walks Vega and I'm like who the hell are you ? But Shepard knows who he is.

That makes it the same as Deus Ex:HR.

But, Mass effect is a trilogy, it begins with mass effect 1, that's where my shepard is born, when i chose its background, and it continues and it ends with M3. We have an import with mass effect.

And like I said, M3 is a great game, but it has its flaws too. Vega at the beginning, and too much auto-dialogue are what I consider as mistakes.

The issue with Vega, it's that Shepard meets him for the first time in a comic before M3 without any input from the player. Yes, the comic was released for free, but it had no direct links with the game. So, those who didn't read this comic, yes, they don't know who is Vega, but Shepard knows him. They are already friends without our consent.  It was a mistake for me.

And for Hawk, I already said, that I'd rather take DAO as a good example for what I want for a voiced protagonist.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 avril 2012 - 05:14 .

[bEVEsthda]

nightscrawl wrote...
The problem with doing post production work on a voice like that is if the actor delivers all of the lines in the same way from character to character, it will sound fake. The reason it will sound fake is because of speech patterns (and in the case of DA games, various accents) that can't be taken away by post production voice modulation, without extensive editing of the content, which might be more work than it's worth. A striking example, to me, is the actor who plays Justice. He also played Martin (Isabela's contact) in DA2, and I heard it right away because their accent and speech pattern is the same, even though he changes his tone for each character.

When I hear a voice that sounds familiar, it strikes something in my brain, a piece of dialogue or even just a single word, and I play it over and over in my head until I make the right connection. This happens with movie/tv and commercial narration as well as video games. With live action, I tend to look at peoples' mouths when they talk, so that also adds to my mental replay. That's not to say that everyone will hear these similarities as I do, but it can be a factor.

You misunderstand. (or I've misunderstood what is possible with this technology).
The modulating/filtering is done on the player's platform. The gamer customizing the protagonist's voice with sliders.
It's not for having one actor do many parts. It's for customizing the PC. So none of your objections apply. 

[AkiKishi]

Sylvianus wrote...

It's exactly the same.

Hawke - after time skip 1 people greet you I have no bloody idea who they are.
Shepard - At the start of ME3 up walks Vega and I'm like who the hell are you ? But Shepard knows who he is.

That makes it the same as Deus Ex:HR.

But, Mass effect is a trilogy, it begins with mass effect 1, that's where my shepard is born, when i chose its background, and it continues and it ends with M3. We have an import with mass effect.

And like I said, M3 is a great game, but it has its flaws too. Vega at the beginning, and too much auto-dialogue are what I consider as mistakes.

The issue with Vega, it's that Shepard meets him for the first time in a comic before M3 without any input from the player. Yes, the comic was for free, but it had no direct links with the game. So, those who didn't read this comic, yes, they don't know who is Vega, but Shepard knows him. They are already friends without our contents.  It was a mistake for me.

And for Hawk, I already said, that I'd rather take DAO as a good example for what I want for a voiced protagonist.

People crop in Mass Effect too, it depends on the background you choose, but they are still people you don't know that Shepard does. Why is that any different to DX:HR?

[hoorayforicecream]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

They exist. One example, the Monkey Island games from 3 onwards, including Tales of Monkey Island, were full sentences and voiced. Personally I almost always listened to Guybrush's VA because he's awesome, so the assumption that full sentences would render VOs superfluous or entirely skippable doesn't hold much water for me.

Not that I wouldn't skip them in an RPG though, given the chance. It's not a matter of good or bad VO there, just RP preferences.

I actually worked on Tales of Monkey Island's localization. It doesn't always provide the full line. For short sentences it does, but for longer ones it just gives the first words, then trails off with ellipses. Also, Guybrush often says much more than just the line provided. It's often just the *first* line he gives.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 05 avril 2012 - 03:01 .

[Sylvianus]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

It's exactly the same.

Hawke - after time skip 1 people greet you I have no bloody idea who they are.
Shepard - At the start of ME3 up walks Vega and I'm like who the hell are you ? But Shepard knows who he is.

That makes it the same as Deus Ex:HR.

But, Mass effect is a trilogy, it begins with mass effect 1, that's where my shepard is born, when i chose its background, and it continues and it ends with M3. We have an import with mass effect.

And like I said, M3 is a great game, but it has its flaws too. Vega at the beginning, and too much auto-dialogue are what I consider as mistakes.

The issue with Vega, it's that Shepard meets him for the first time in a comic before M3 without any input from the player. Yes, the comic was for free, but it had no direct links with the game. So, those who didn't read this comic, yes, they don't know who is Vega, but Shepard knows him. They are already friends without our contents.  It was a mistake for me.

And for Hawk, I already said, that I'd rather take DAO as a good example for what I want for a voiced protagonist.

People crop in Mass Effect too, it depends on the background you choose, but they are still people you don't know that Shepard does. Why is that any different to DX:HR?

if I can define a bit his life, his feelings, his relationships, his personality, despite the limits of the game, yes it is different

When I choose for example the spacer origins, I read the lines and I know I have my parents, so If I choose this background, I am not surprised if shepard meets his mom. The game offers me limits, but I still decide if my shepard has his parents dead or no.

If I decided he is a survivor on Akuze, where he lost 50 mates, soldiers and friends, I am not surprised If I meet Caporal Thumbs, the other survivor, that my shepard obviously, already knows since this guy was a part of the background I chose.

Or, I chose the background where Shepard was in a gang. This is not surprising if I have childhood friends who were part of this group, appear and want me to help them in the game a while after.

The game leads, but it gives me also the opportunity to imagine his life and his relationship with them in the past. When I talked with them, there was no auto-dialogue, shepard could express different feelings toward them. Either he could be aggressive with them, neutral or nice, according to the personality I chose for him or what I imagined he thought of them because of past events.

You were in my gang ? But what happened during this time and what are / were our relationships ? It was my prerogative.

The backgrounds played a role, leaving me a little room to be part of the character. And THIS IS what bothers many of you. You would prefer a character more defined, decided by the game without that part,  without blank for the imagination, without our input. 

They have established personalities and defined lives without any input from the player.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 avril 2012 - 04:30 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That people complain specifically about ME 3's auto-dialog, and not instances where Hawke interjected in party banter ("Isabela!" or this) I think that's an important distinction.

*This is what I’m guessing.

I complaint about Hawke's auto-dialogue since day 1 release day.

As soon as I saw the ambient auto-dialogue in Legacy I rushed here to complain about it.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 avril 2012 - 04:32 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's exactly the same as Hawke, and the same as Shepard in ME3.

Adam still directs the story, more so than both DA2 and ME3 , with regards to how  the game ends. What you did matters.Having a fixed appearence and a full name is the only real difference between ME3/DA2 and DX:HR.

We must have played different Bioware games... Even as far back as BG you were raised in CandleKeep. There has never been a game that let you create any character you wanted. Had to go to IWD/II Black Isle for that.

But in BG you had total control over what sort of person your character was.  Yes, he was raised by Gorion in Candlekeep.  How does the PC feel about Gorion?  Or Candlekeep?  Is he generally polite, or is he aggressive, or is he crass?  Does he view Imoen as a friend and ally, or as a rival for Gorion's affection?  Does he agree with the popular opinion around Candlekeep that Gorion is wise, or does he childishly think that Gorion is too old to understand the modern world in which the PC lives?

When the PC and Gorion get ambushed, how does the PC react?  Does the ambush affect the PC's opinion of Gorion's judgment?  Does the PC follow Gorion's advice and head to Candlekeep, or does he try to go somewhere else to avoid another ambush?  Does he stay on the road in the hope that he'll encounter help, or does he move cross-country to avoid strangers?  Or does he panic and flee in a random direction?  Or grow depressed and spend days camping in the shadow of Candlekeep's walls?

BG offered the player tremendous control over the PC's personality and behaviour.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 avril 2012 - 04:39 .

[AkiKishi]

Sylvianus wrote...

When I choose for example the spacer origins, I read the lines and I know I have my parents, so If I choose this background, I am not surprised if shepard meets his mom. The game offers me limits, but I still decide if my shepard has his parents dead or no.

If I decided he is a survivor on Akuze, where he lost 50 mates, soldiers and friends, I am not surprised If I meet Caporal Thumbs, the other survivor, that my shepard obviously, already knows since this guy was a part of the background I chose.

Or, I chose the background where Shepard was in a gang. This is not surprising if I have childhood friends who were part of this group, appear and want me to help them in the game a while after.

The game leads, but it gives me also the opportunity to imagine his life and his relationship with them in the past. When I talked with them, there was no auto-dialogue, shepard could express different feelings toward them. Either he could be aggressive with them, neutral or nice, according to the personality I chose for him or what I imagined he thought of them because of past events.

You were in my gang ? But what happened during this time and what are / were our relationships ? It was my prerogative.

The backgrounds played a role, leaving me a little room to be part of the character. And THIS IS what bothers many of you. You would prefer a character more defined, decided by the game without that part,  without blank for the imagination, without our input. 

They have established personalities and defined lives without any input from the player.

If a pre-gen character is being used it's for a reason. Usually one that ties it to the plot of the game in various ways.
This means that even if you run your little imagination excercise, there is a very good chance the game is going to come along and contradict it.
I'd rather the game be clear and then I don't feel cheated, or that I've wasted my time if/when that happens.
The overall stance I take depends on many different design features, as such I won't know where I stand on many things until certain questions are answered.

[RosaAquafire]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Options like [Placate], [Demand], [Change Subject], [Flirt], or [Inquire] are even better than paraphrases for me.

I completely agree with this. In DA2 I've just learned to ignore the paraphrases anyway and just roleplay whether I want to sound nice, snarky, or angry in response to something. It sucks major butt but it's the truth -- paraphrases is literally the worst system I can come up with for this general approach.

I have to say, I adore the hell out of Bioware and I loved me some DA2 but I'm going to be pretty miffed if there's no way to view full text in DA3. Keep paraphrase, fine. There are people who like that system just fine and I don't think I'm better than them. But there has to be some way to let us see the full line, there has to be. Even just having it show up on hover after like 20 seconds. I don't mind waiting.

It feels like they don't want to commit to this because they don't want people who don't want full text to read the full text but damn son, if it's optional, I really don't think those people have got a leg to stand on. I really don't mind how ghetto the option is, I just really want it. It was legit hard to roleplay effectively in DA2. Sometimes I'd pick the aggressive option hoping to sound stern, and instead Hawke would open her mouth and a cloud of enraged bees would fly out.

[the_one_54321]

There's actually no in-between for player defined characters or predefined characters. All you get is little chopped up pieces of each, mixed together. What makes the difference is how many pieces you get and how you're allowed to pick them.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Options like [Placate], [Demand], [Change Subject], [Flirt], or [Inquire] are even better than paraphrases for me.

I'm inclined to agree.

In DA2 I would often choose a line in an attempt to do something in particular, only to have Hawke pursue a completely different goal.

Telling us what the PC is going to try to do is better than hinting vaguely at how it will be done.

Ideally, I'd like to know exactly how that thing will be done, as well, but even Maria's suggestion on it's own would, I think, be an improvement on DA2.

[Maria Caliban]

I'll celebrate this moment with a small glass of sherry.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 avril 2012 - 06:37 .

[Deviija]

Another issue in these Dues Ex and Alpha Protocol (or even The Witcher) examples is that there is no character customization of appearance or gender available in them. There is a much more strict 'predefined' character in mind for these games, much more than Shepard ever was or is. Shepard, at least, has agency over her/his sexuality, race, appearance, and military background. It may not be a huge amount of character roleplay freedom in some ways, to some people, but it certainly is a huge amount of freedom in other ways.

If I am being forced to roleplay a 'defined' character that is a dude, then at least let me be able to choose his sexuality, his ambitions, his methodologies for achieving said goals, his demeanor, his allies, and his past history. Having piecemeal predefined patches in some areas that really serve no purpose, doesn't really make any sense to me.

In fact, to go on a related tangent, I really don't think having predefined gender for protagonists is even necessary either in this era of gaming. What importance did Adam or Michael being a dude bring to the story? Nothing. There were no plots so fundamentally integral to being a dude that either of these storylines would crumble if their protagonists were gender-flipped. The stories could have easily worked the same if Adam had been Eve Jensen and Michael had been Michelle Thorton.

Anyway, in terms of autodiologue and auto-relationships in games, ME2 is still a bad offender. It isn't just ME3. In ME1, my DudeShep treated both Tali and Liara poorly and didn't like them and made that clear whenever possible. Yet in ME2, Liara is determined to bring Shepard back to life and that whole silly backstory plot. Would she really do that for someone that didn't like her at all and treated her poorly? She treats my Shepard as a friend when they meet in ME2. Same with Tali. And then LOTSB, Liara and this Shep are suddenly bantering BFFs regardless. This is a problem with importing characters and also a problem with 'making things simple' in terms of relationships over the course of a series. What the writers view as Shepard's friends are still Shepard's friends, regardless if our personal Shepard doesn't want them to be friends, doesn't like them, and is capable of showing it in one game only to have that forgotten by the sequel.

This is also one of the reasons why I prefer self-contained games with their own cast of characters and their own stories. It is more within a player's control to roleplay their PC how they wish, and see it to fruition throughout the game itself, rather than to have certain things handwaved or made null by the second game.

Modifié par Deviija, 05 avril 2012 - 06:57 .

[the_one_54321]

Deviija wrote...
In fact, to go on a related tangent, I really don't think having predefined gender for protagonists is even necessary either in this era of gaming.

Including a female PC automatically doubles the cost of the voice acting.

[Deviija]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Including a female PC automatically doubles the cost of the voice acting.

Who says the game needs to have a voiced protagonist?

[the_one_54321]

Deviija wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Including a female PC automatically doubles the cost of the voice acting.

Who says the game needs to have a voiced protagonist?

Not me!

This is why I keep saying that voicing the PC is the source of all the problems!

[Maria Caliban]

Out of AP, DE, and the Witcher, the Witcher is the only one that really utilized the set protagonist. Unsurprising as the character already had a bunch of short stories and novels as background material.

But I don't think the set protagonist has much to do with the conversation scheme they used. They also all have actiony combat and stealth sections. We're just dealing with a certain sub-genre of RPGs.