games may be art, because - why not? it is a form of creation. What most people forget about is that art IS negotiable. People seem to think just because something is art - it is only up to creators to form it.
Now, being an artist myself (painter to be exact)- this is not exactly so.
When i paint a picture for myself, that i may or may not sell later - yes i am responsible 100%for its resolve, colours, form etc.
BUT
there is something called commision. And that is what I would consider games to be - piece of art created to suit the consumer/per consumer's request. They pay you and tell you what they want. If I finish the painting, and they don't like a bit of it - I will do my best to repaint it/fix it. Because it was clear from the start I am doing this particular piece for SOMEONE.
It is hard overall to compare painting to games of course, some people may ask 'yes but if you paint something not for commision and i buy it , and i dont like some of it - can I ask for it to be repainted?' - well no you can't. why? Because you got to see the whole ready artwork before you bought it, and if you didn't like it - you shoulnd't have bought it.
You didn't see the game you paid for untill you paid for it. all you had while you were keeping those money saved for it were promises 'yes you will like it, yes it will be this and that' - just as a commissioned artist would say.
What I'm trying to say is - just because something is considered art - doesn't mean it is only up to the artist to form it. And if you are creating an art piece for sale - that's when the final judgement isn't artist's at all.
The "art" defense
Débuté par
tenojitsu
, mars 20 2012 08:05
Retour en haut
#52
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:02
Jackal7713
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tenojitsu wrote...
I have yet to see any logically, well written reasons why the anti-retake people like the ending. Honestly, I would love to see what their reasons are. Perhaps there are reasons why the ending makes more sense than I found in it, and Im missing something. So far, however, all I've seen the "Art" defense and the exaggeration of a few people's misguided comments/actions.Jackal7713 wrote...
tenojitsu is right. Retake people thought the FTC guy was going way to far and only speaking for himself. You shouldn't bundle us up with him just because you want to.
Your right again tenojitsu! They can't say anything other then its "art". Anything else they say is just an insult, becuase they can't make a logical argument, so like "children" they have a fit and go into the " i know you are, but what am I" speach.
Modifié par Jackal7713, 20 mars 2012 - 09:03 .
#53
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:03
tenojitsu
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Haha, thanksbchesson wrote...
tenojitsu wrote...
Which is really funny that movies are considered art by most and and ripped apart and dissected by critics and consumers around the world, and nobody cares. It is expected that badly made movies will get blasted, but a group of video gamers critisizes a game and suddenly we are all "entitled" childrenCyruge wrote...
Yttrian wrote...
The "art" defense is a fallacy that labels something as being beyond criticism.
And I can certainly criticise anything, art included, if it was missold, incomplete and ends by destroying itself and any reason you bought it.
Agreed. People using the "art" defence shouldn't be able to crtitisize anything as long as you lable it "art".
Amen! You knocked it out of the park tenojitsu....
:::Takes a bow:::
#54
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:03
LadyLinnie
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There's different kinds of art, and games, books, paintings, music can all BE art, but just because you did a painting doesn't qualify it as art. There are developers out there who aim to merge games and art, sure, but for most developers, for obvious reasons, entertainment value is far more important. Some relevant comparisons: popular fiction (entertainment) vs literary fiction (art); pop music (entertainment) vs opera (art); action movies (entertainment) vs serious drama films (art).
The obvious problem with the art defense is that most people wanted entertainment, then at the end (after some pretty good entertainment for 20 hours, I might add), the game suddenly went: ART! And then ended.
The obvious problem with the art defense is that most people wanted entertainment, then at the end (after some pretty good entertainment for 20 hours, I might add), the game suddenly went: ART! And then ended.
#55
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:03
Natureguy85
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I have no problem with video games being called art. I do however have a huge problem with people calling something art to make it immune from criticism. Sure maybe the ME3 endings were artistic. They still suck.
#56
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:03
az350z
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Jackal7713 wrote...
@az350z
Because someone has a different opinion about something is it childish? Don't people have the right as consumers to express a complaint to a manufacture of the product they have been sold? Or is that childish?
Starting a "movement" is not an opinion.
Did I start a movement rallying for support because I did like the ending or did not like the ending? (and really, I've never specified, so you don't even know where I stand)
Also, you are not complaining about a product by definition. You are complaining about a story (game, movie, book, whatever).
#57
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:04
bchesson
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Tenojitsu does have a valid point that labeling something as "art" and calling people "artists" is becoming somewhat devalued and almost anything is labeled as "art" these days. Subway makes a mean sub but "Sandwich Artist" is a bit rediculous.
#58
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:05
Jackal7713
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az350z wrote...
Jackal7713 wrote...
@az350z
Because someone has a different opinion about something is it childish? Don't people have the right as consumers to express a complaint to a manufacture of the product they have been sold? Or is that childish?
Starting a "movement" is not an opinion.
Did I start a movement rallying for support because I did like the ending or did not like the ending? (and really, I've never specified, so you don't even know where I stand)
Also, you are not complaining about a product by definition. You are complaining about a story (game, movie, book, whatever).
It came in a box and I paid money for it, hense its a product. Yes I am complaining about the product that was sold to me.
Modifié par Jackal7713, 20 mars 2012 - 09:12 .
#59
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:06
Qutayba
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Milish wrote...
games may be art, because - why not? it is a form of creation. What most people forget about is that art IS negotiable. People seem to think just because something is art - it is only up to creators to form it.
Now, being an artist myself (painter to be exact)- this is not exactly so.
When i paint a picture for myself, that i may or may not sell later - yes i am responsible 100%for its resolve, colours, form etc.
BUT
there is something called commision. And that is what I would consider games to be - piece of art created to suit the consumer/per consumer's request. They pay you and tell you what they want. If I finish the painting, and they don't like a bit of it - I will do my best to repaint it/fix it. Because it was clear from the start I am doing this particular piece for SOMEONE.
It is hard overall to compare painting to games of course, some people may ask 'yes but if you paint something not for commision and i buy it , and i dont like some of it - can I ask for it to be repainted?' - well no you can't. why? Because you got to see the whole ready artwork before you bought it, and if you didn't like it - you shoulnd't have bought it.
You didn't see the game you paid for untill you paid for it. all you had while you were keeping those money saved for it were promises 'yes you will like it, yes it will be this and that' - just as a commissioned artist would say.
What I'm trying to say is - just because something is considered art - doesn't mean it is only up to the artist to form it. And if you are creating an art piece for sale - that's when the final judgement isn't artist's at all.
Well said,
#60
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:06
Timpossible21
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Of course games are art:
Not the playing, or the many copies. But the creation of this game, of the world, of the charakters and of the story is an artistical process. I mean: Movies are considered art, and you can buy many copies of them.
But Art is no holy thing that can't be changed, that should be worshiped or something like that.
Of course Mass Effect or any other game is as important to our culture as the mona lisa, but it's still a product of an artistical prosess and so it's art. But like i said: That does not mean that it's holy and cannot be changed.
Bioware has the right to let the end like the want it to be. That's a fact. But to do so would be arrogant and to be honst pretty stupid. If you want to show something to an audience, why should you be happy if the majority of this audience doesn't like what it gets.
Without fans and guys who buy this game, mass effect would be more or less nothing.
Not the playing, or the many copies. But the creation of this game, of the world, of the charakters and of the story is an artistical process. I mean: Movies are considered art, and you can buy many copies of them.
But Art is no holy thing that can't be changed, that should be worshiped or something like that.
Of course Mass Effect or any other game is as important to our culture as the mona lisa, but it's still a product of an artistical prosess and so it's art. But like i said: That does not mean that it's holy and cannot be changed.
Bioware has the right to let the end like the want it to be. That's a fact. But to do so would be arrogant and to be honst pretty stupid. If you want to show something to an audience, why should you be happy if the majority of this audience doesn't like what it gets.
Without fans and guys who buy this game, mass effect would be more or less nothing.
#61
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:08
tenojitsu
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And to that effect, we'll assume video games are in fact art, but they are VASTLY different from any other art form. You can simply download a change in video games, something impossible in movies, music, literature, painting, etc. I wonder if other other art forms wouldnt take advantage of this if they had the opportunity.Milish wrote...
games may be art, because - why not? it is a form of creation. What most people forget about is that art IS negotiable. People seem to think just because something is art - it is only up to creators to form it.
Now, being an artist myself (painter to be exact)- this is not exactly so.
When i paint a picture for myself, that i may or may not sell later - yes i am responsible 100%for its resolve, colours, form etc.
BUT
there is something called commision. And that is what I would consider games to be - piece of art created to suit the consumer/per consumer's request. They pay you and tell you what they want. If I finish the painting, and they don't like a bit of it - I will do my best to repaint it/fix it. Because it was clear from the start I am doing this particular piece for SOMEONE.
It is hard overall to compare painting to games of course, some people may ask 'yes but if you paint something not for commision and i buy it , and i dont like some of it - can I ask for it to be repainted?' - well no you can't. why? Because you got to see the whole ready artwork before you bought it, and if you didn't like it - you shoulnd't have bought it.
You didn't see the game you paid for untill you paid for it. all you had while you were keeping those money saved for it were promises 'yes you will like it, yes it will be this and that' - just as a commissioned artist would say.
What I'm trying to say is - just because something is considered art - doesn't mean it is only up to the artist to form it. And if you are creating an art piece for sale - that's when the final judgement isn't artist's at all.
#62
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:09
tenojitsu
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Thank you. Perhaps I was exaggerating a bit in my opening post to prove a point, call it poetic license. See, I'm an artist too!bchesson wrote...
Tenojitsu does have a valid point that labeling something as "art" and calling people "artists" is becoming somewhat devalued and almost anything is labeled as "art" these days. Subway makes a mean sub but "Sandwich Artist" is a bit rediculous.
#63
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:10
Joccaren
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Video games are art as much as movies and pictures are.
However, they are a different kind of art. They are an art where the audience helps craft it. Until we participate in the game, it is incomplete. A movie will still go through to the end without anyone doing anything, a picture will still show an image no matter what. A game does not progress without our input.
In addition, in Mass Effect we craft the story, participating even more into making the game, making it as much our art as the developers.
Where the whole 'Its they're art, their choice' argument falls apart for me is the moment EA funded them, and I handed over my money. If they made ME3 as a hobby, with their own funding - then by all means do what you want with it.
There would have been an agreement with EA though, and with me and many others, that Bioware would deliver what fans wanted, to produce sales for EA to earn them money. Bioware has not produced an ending that the majority of fans liked - in fact, the vast majority hated it last I checked the polls - and as such it should be fixed.
What remains to be done is informing EA that Bioware did fail, and that we aren't just entiteled children crying out because it wasn't exactly what we wanted. Once that is done, Bioware will be told to fix their ending for the fans.
They were able to make ME3 as they made promises to other parties, and those other parties trusted them. If these promises are broken, Bioware has no leg to stand on seeing as they sold their art out so that they could make it.
However, they are a different kind of art. They are an art where the audience helps craft it. Until we participate in the game, it is incomplete. A movie will still go through to the end without anyone doing anything, a picture will still show an image no matter what. A game does not progress without our input.
In addition, in Mass Effect we craft the story, participating even more into making the game, making it as much our art as the developers.
Where the whole 'Its they're art, their choice' argument falls apart for me is the moment EA funded them, and I handed over my money. If they made ME3 as a hobby, with their own funding - then by all means do what you want with it.
There would have been an agreement with EA though, and with me and many others, that Bioware would deliver what fans wanted, to produce sales for EA to earn them money. Bioware has not produced an ending that the majority of fans liked - in fact, the vast majority hated it last I checked the polls - and as such it should be fixed.
What remains to be done is informing EA that Bioware did fail, and that we aren't just entiteled children crying out because it wasn't exactly what we wanted. Once that is done, Bioware will be told to fix their ending for the fans.
They were able to make ME3 as they made promises to other parties, and those other parties trusted them. If these promises are broken, Bioware has no leg to stand on seeing as they sold their art out so that they could make it.
#64
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:12
az350z
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Jackal7713 wrote...
az350z wrote...
Jackal7713 wrote...
@az350z
Because someone has a different opinion about something is it childish? Don't people have the right as consumers to express a complaint to a manufacture of the product they have been sold? Or is that childish?
Starting a "movement" is not an opinion.
Did I start a movement rallying for support because I did like the ending or did not like the ending? (and really, I've never specified, so you don't even know where I stand)
Also, you are not complaining about a product by definition. You are complaining about a story (game, movie, book, whatever).
It came in a box and I paid money for it, hense its a product. Yes I am complaining about the prduct that was sold to me.
Nobody cares about dictionary definitions. If you are going to stick inside that backpedaled hole there is no conversation. There wasn't much of one to begin with anyway.
I'll say once more - you are not complaining about a product, you are complaining about a story, whichever form it may have come in. You may as well be complaining about a Mass Effect movie/book/comic.
That said I won't be replying in this thread again. You're mind is made up which is why you belong in this group, and why reason will never prevail.
#65
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:14
Jackal7713
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@ az350z
And people say there isn't a god.
And people say there isn't a god.
Modifié par Jackal7713, 20 mars 2012 - 09:15 .
#66
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:14
DemGeth
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tenojitsu wrote...
Riddle me this... SInce when did video games stop being GAMES and become "art?" I understand that designing characters, environments, etc takes an artistic touch, like being able to draw, and writing a good story requires a great deal of skill and talent, but is it really art? In my opinion, books are books, movies are movies, and "art" is painting, sculpture, and other stuff like that. I never learned about books, movies, or video games in any "art" class that I've taken. How come everyone that does anything that requires a bit of skill want to be called an artist? The guy who owns the local BBQ joint makes some mean fried chicken, maybe he's an artist too.
Its a video game, period. Art can't be mass produced, i.e., there is only one Mona Lisa (yes there are copies and if that's where you take your argument just don't even bother). The content of a DVD game that gets pumped out by the thousands is not art, and I'm tired of being told we have to treat Bioware like "artists." I'm sure these are the same people that feel the need to call everyone they know the first time their snot nosed kid goes poopy in the potty, because apparently that's art too (see mass effect 3 ending)
If it's not art than why do you care so much about then ending?
Shouldn't you just strictly be concerned with gameplay
#67
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:16
tenojitsu
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I see your point. However, a lot of people on the Retake movement are upset not just that they didnt like the ending, but they were falsly advertised in how they would mechanically work. I'm not going to post all the links because there are plenty of threads for that, but basically we were told that the endings would be vastly different based on your playthough experience, and it would not be an A, B, C ending. We were told that the choices we've made throughout the series would have an impart on the ending. This is clearly not how the ending works. Nowhere in that argument do I even mention "story" or "bad writing." For many of us, its just a failure to deliver what we were told we were getting.az350z wrote...
Jackal7713 wrote...
@az350z
Because someone has a different opinion about something is it childish? Don't people have the right as consumers to express a complaint to a manufacture of the product they have been sold? Or is that childish?
Starting a "movement" is not an opinion.
Did I start a movement rallying for support because I did like the ending or did not like the ending? (and really, I've never specified, so you don't even know where I stand)
Also, you are not complaining about a product by definition. You are complaining about a story (game, movie, book, whatever).
As far as a "keep the endings the same" movement...I would love to see someone do this.
#68
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:16
Cody211282
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az350z wrote...
Jackal7713 wrote...
az350z wrote...
Jackal7713 wrote...
@az350z
Because someone has a different opinion about something is it childish? Don't people have the right as consumers to express a complaint to a manufacture of the product they have been sold? Or is that childish?
Starting a "movement" is not an opinion.
Did I start a movement rallying for support because I did like the ending or did not like the ending? (and really, I've never specified, so you don't even know where I stand)
Also, you are not complaining about a product by definition. You are complaining about a story (game, movie, book, whatever).
It came in a box and I paid money for it, hense its a product. Yes I am complaining about the prduct that was sold to me.
Nobody cares about dictionary definitions. If you are going to stick inside that backpedaled hole there is no conversation. There wasn't much of one to begin with anyway.
I'll say once more - you are not complaining about a product, you are complaining about a story, whichever form it may have come in. You may as well be complaining about a Mass Effect movie/book/comic.
That said I won't be replying in this thread again. You're mind is made up which is why you belong in this group, and why reason will never prevail.
Ya that is what we are complaining about, I paid for the story thus it's prat of the product.
#69
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:16
tenojitsu
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See above postDemGeth wrote...
tenojitsu wrote...
Riddle me this... SInce when did video games stop being GAMES and become "art?" I understand that designing characters, environments, etc takes an artistic touch, like being able to draw, and writing a good story requires a great deal of skill and talent, but is it really art? In my opinion, books are books, movies are movies, and "art" is painting, sculpture, and other stuff like that. I never learned about books, movies, or video games in any "art" class that I've taken. How come everyone that does anything that requires a bit of skill want to be called an artist? The guy who owns the local BBQ joint makes some mean fried chicken, maybe he's an artist too.
Its a video game, period. Art can't be mass produced, i.e., there is only one Mona Lisa (yes there are copies and if that's where you take your argument just don't even bother). The content of a DVD game that gets pumped out by the thousands is not art, and I'm tired of being told we have to treat Bioware like "artists." I'm sure these are the same people that feel the need to call everyone they know the first time their snot nosed kid goes poopy in the potty, because apparently that's art too (see mass effect 3 ending)
If it's not art than why do you care so much about then ending?
Shouldn't you just strictly be concerned with gameplay
#70
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:17
Milish
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well, art - like everything else evolves as well. From simple sculptures to interactive media installations.
Games are a fusion of different art forms (painting drawing writing) with science (coding etc).
People who say 'yes but art is painting, drawing,music etc - not video games'- I would like to ask - why do you deny a right to evolve to the arts? I don't hear anyone saying 'yes but science is only cutting animals apart to see what's inside, how can we consider pharmaceuticals efforts science?'.
Maybe not the clearest point, but I hope you understand what I mean. Art is very glorified, for no good reason. Backlash to that glorification is that now lots of people choose to think art is conformed to certain boundaries and if those boundaries are broken/shifted - it's not art anymore.
Once people stop associating art with the famous paintings, writings etc and realize that art is part of our lives, something made by people with predispositions to create to add to our reality - it will be clear that games are a form of art - elaborate and new one , but art nonetheless
Games are a fusion of different art forms (painting drawing writing) with science (coding etc).
People who say 'yes but art is painting, drawing,music etc - not video games'- I would like to ask - why do you deny a right to evolve to the arts? I don't hear anyone saying 'yes but science is only cutting animals apart to see what's inside, how can we consider pharmaceuticals efforts science?'.
Maybe not the clearest point, but I hope you understand what I mean. Art is very glorified, for no good reason. Backlash to that glorification is that now lots of people choose to think art is conformed to certain boundaries and if those boundaries are broken/shifted - it's not art anymore.
Once people stop associating art with the famous paintings, writings etc and realize that art is part of our lives, something made by people with predispositions to create to add to our reality - it will be clear that games are a form of art - elaborate and new one , but art nonetheless
#71
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:18
tjmax
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tenojitsu wrote...
I have yet to see any logically, well written reasons why the anti-retake people like the ending. Honestly, I would love to see what their reasons are. Perhaps there are reasons why the ending makes more sense than I found in it, and Im missing something. So far, however, all I've seen the "Art" defense and the exaggeration of a few people's misguided comments/actions.Jackal7713 wrote...
tenojitsu is right. Retake people thought the FTC guy was going way to far and only speaking for himself. You shouldn't bundle us up with him just because you want to.
I believe a lot of the "anti-retake" folks are IGN or IGN inspired trolls.
IGN appears to me to be trying to make its target market look foolish, but is actually showing just how out of touch they really are with gamers. Its funny how lagitimate news media and sites like Forbes, USA today, Yahoo and many others look at this as compaired to the people who are built to actually represent gamers intrests.
About the One guy going to the FTC... I don't know why that's even news. People do that all the time almost every online game. They can run to the BBB FTC It's their right to do so if they wish, but none of these ever hold water. They are better off filing a small claims then attempting to make a federal case out of it, not that it would hold any water either.
This is not about hating Bioware. Its about challenging the ending against the lore and logic they have build around this game over the past 5 years. About staying true to the decisions and persona we placed into the chars we have played over that time. Its about the love of the game not ripping down the franchise.
Thats what people do seem to not get.
Modifié par tjmax, 20 mars 2012 - 09:20 .
#72
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:19
tenojitsu
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And I'll say again, I am complaining because the ending didnt mechanically work in the fashion they advertised.az350z wrote...
Jackal7713 wrote...
az350z wrote...
Jackal7713 wrote...
@az350z
Because someone has a different opinion about something is it childish? Don't people have the right as consumers to express a complaint to a manufacture of the product they have been sold? Or is that childish?
Starting a "movement" is not an opinion.
Did I start a movement rallying for support because I did like the ending or did not like the ending? (and really, I've never specified, so you don't even know where I stand)
Also, you are not complaining about a product by definition. You are complaining about a story (game, movie, book, whatever).
It came in a box and I paid money for it, hense its a product. Yes I am complaining about the prduct that was sold to me.
Nobody cares about dictionary definitions. If you are going to stick inside that backpedaled hole there is no conversation. There wasn't much of one to begin with anyway.
I'll say once more - you are not complaining about a product, you are complaining about a story, whichever form it may have come in. You may as well be complaining about a Mass Effect movie/book/comic.
That said I won't be replying in this thread again. You're mind is made up which is why you belong in this group, and why reason will never prevail.
#73
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:21
Hexxys
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I don't mind video games being considered a form of art. What I DO have a problem with is the limits people want to place on it. For the first time in human history, things like the internet have opened up new possibilities for everyone! Art will evolve accordingly. You couldn't ask an author to rewrite the ending of a book before because it would mean a huge issue of rewriting, republishing, etc.
Video games are different. Video games actually DEMAND that their developers provide maintenance to them. Why shouldn't developers use the ability to expand and modify games according to what its customers want? People have waiting for that sort of convenience for... Well, ever!
Video games are different. Video games actually DEMAND that their developers provide maintenance to them. Why shouldn't developers use the ability to expand and modify games according to what its customers want? People have waiting for that sort of convenience for... Well, ever!
#74
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:21
bchesson
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tenojitsu wrote...
As far as a "keep the endings the same" movement...I would love to see someone do this.
There is one it's "Keep Mass Effect" on Facebook so they have a movement too....everyone is happy!
#75
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 09:21
elsunga
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I have personally no problem with art games but ME3 is far from art. All three games are mainstream space opera rpg - and I don't consider :mainstream: in this case anything bad or poor. Sadly the :artful: ending is poorly written with plot holes and narrative mistakes you wil find mentioned in any secondary school textbook. For me first of all it is very poorly written.
Modifié par elsunga, 20 mars 2012 - 09:28 .
